Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Ms D Armstrong): We are joined via Zoom by Aideen Yourell, a member of the Irish Council Against Blood Sports, and Francis Ward, who is a member of Stand with Foxes.

Good morning, Aideen and Francis, and welcome to the meeting. I invite you to brief the Committee, after which we will allow some time for questions from members.

Ms Aideen Yourell (Irish Council Against Blood Sports): First, I commend the Northern Ireland Assembly for bringing forward the Bill, which is absolutely wonderful. You are very good on animal welfare. You banned coursing a long time ago. You have made great progress to get the Hunting with Dogs Bill to Committee Stage, and I commend that. Unfortunately, the Government down here in the Republic — not the citizens in general — are complete laggards on animal welfare, and we still have hare coursing and fox hunting. That was a bit of a rant from me, but I am delighted that, in the north of our country, the Assembly has progressed so much on animal welfare. I commend you for that, and I hope that the Republic will follow.

I have read the Bill, which seems to be comprehensive. It seems to cover everything. It is a good Bill.

The Chairperson (Ms D Armstrong): Thank you.

Ms Yourell: I have read the Bill and, as I said, it is comprehensive. It covers everything.

The Chairperson (Ms D Armstrong): OK.

Ms Yourell: The only thing that I would say to you is that you should not make the mistake that the Irish Government made when they banned carted deer hunting in 2010. That was because the Greens were in government at the time; it would not have happened otherwise. The Irish Government inserted a clause that stipulated that deer may not be hunted with more than one dog: I hope that that does not happen with this Bill. What happens now is that the Ward Union Hunt still goes out with one dog, supposedly, to hunt deer, and it is exploiting a bad loophole. I urge you to be careful about that.

The Chairperson (Ms D Armstrong): OK, thank you, Aideen.

Francis, do you want to add anything to what Aideen has said?

Mr Francis Ward (Stand with Foxes): I am a farmer from County Longford, and I grew up with sheep and cattle. I was away travelling for years but came back to take over the farm, which is now mostly concerned with biodiversity and nature. I am surrounded by sheep farms. I have always had a keen interest in foxes, but it was reignited three years ago when a fox was shot about 15 yards from my house by people out lamping at night. That reignited my interest in foxes and the whole hunting aspect.

Two years ago, on 17 January, I observed the rejection in the Dáil of a ban on fox hunting. After listening to Martin Heydon's speech — he is the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, and he damned the foxes to hell, really — I realised that he was not speaking for farmers in Ireland. I have no doubt that a ban will come in eventually, but there is no point in a ban coming in if you do not speak to the farmers. How will it stay in place if you do not?

I decided to start a survey of farmers. I contacted Teagasc, which is the equivalent of the Ulster Farmers' Union (UFU) here, and I was told, "Get 200 people to fill out a survey". That is a rule of thumb to get an idea of opinions. I did an online survey. I sent all the survey leaflets to the Teagasc offices down South and to the Ulster Farmers' Union. It was an online survey, but I thought, "I need to speak to farmers", so I rang up to 200 farmers.

The online survey had just a few questions. There were more in-depth questions in the phone survey. The online survey asked, "How do you regard foxes?", to which 70·6% said that they welcomed them; 13·7% regarded them as pests; and 21·6% were indifferent. The survey asked, "Are foxes a significant threat to livestock?", to which 27·5% said yes and 72·5% said no.

For the phone survey, my questions were as follows: are foxes a threat to your livestock? Do foxes kill lambs? Have you seen a fox kill a lamb? Are you mountain farming or lowland farming? Do your animals lamb indoors? What is the biodiversity habitat in your area? The reason for that question was to find out what was the food chain for foxes in the area. The other questions were these: do you have any issues with pine marten or other predators? Would you agree with alternative measures — I gave a list: secure fencing, guardian animals, night-time sheltering, proper husbandry, attractant management, vigilant monitoring and modern technology — so that you can coexist with foxes? The last question was this: do you agree or disagree that hunting with hounds is beneficial for protecting your stock?

To the question, "Are foxes a threat to your livestock?", out of 200 farmers whom I rang, 35 said yes. To "Have they killed lambs?", 38 said yes. To "Have you seen foxes kill a lamb?", 20 said yes. Now, seeing a fox kill a lamb and seeing a fox carry off a dead lamb are two different things, so that is a bit fifty-fifty. To "Have you issues with pine martens or other predators?", 40 said yes. To the question about whether farmers would agree with a combination of alternative measures so that they could coexist with foxes, 10 said no.

To the question, "Do you think that hunting with hounds is beneficial to protecting your stock?", only 16 out of 200 said yes; mostly, it was a flat no to that question, due to the disruption to sheep and the damage caused. Most farmers would say that dogs are more of a threat, and some indicated that theft was an issue. A lot of farmers brought up the issue of tuberculosis (TB) caused by cross-contamination from hunts when the dogs or, more so, the horses come from different farms. TB can be picked up because of something as simple as a lorry coming out of one yard and going to another. Farmers also mentioned deer crossing from farm to farm. TB was brought up a good few times.

There is one familiar pattern to the responses to the survey, which is that farmers who have issues with foxes have them where there is a lot of shooting of foxes in that area. I have corresponded with David Macdonald about that. He is a zoologist in England who has done 50 years of research on foxes and spent 15 years on the ground with farmers, and he has done work in other countries as well.

Culling has never been proven to be effective; in fact, it accelerates breeding, and that familiar pattern of farmers having issues with foxes in areas where there is culling arises because culling creates chaos in that area. It accelerates breeding and creates chaos in the ecosystem, because foxes are such a highly intelligent species and have huge emotional bonds. If all the foxes in an area are killed, there will be a vacuum, and other foxes will come in from other areas. It is basically like what happens when there are food shortages or wars here: people clear out supermarkets, and there is looting. It is the same with the culling of foxes. It creates chaos in the area, and that is why foxes take risks by maybe going after sheep, which they never do normally. For example, if a vixen is in cub and a dog fox is killed, she will take bigger risks. Culling does not work.

There is an argument that there are no predators of foxes. There are no predators of lions or tigers or humans. That is the way nature intended it. What about disease, death and roadkill? I have counted 40 roadkills in two counties this year — they were mostly this year — and they were cubs. Conservation is another of the arguments for hunts: that is nonsense. Conservation is best left alone; that is the best conservation.

The Chairperson (Ms D Armstrong): Francis, thank you for that. You are welcome to send the survey results in. You said that you rang 200 people: out of interest, how many completed the survey for you?

Mr Ward: I rang 200 farmers. I am not sure exactly of the online survey number now. I think that it is 500. That is all-island.

The Chairperson (Ms D Armstrong): If you send that data to us, we can add it to the evidence. Thank you for that. I will open it up for questions to give you both time to respond.

Aideen, on pest control, if we say that we will ban hunting with dogs, there will be alternative methods of trapping foxes. How do those methods — snares, traps and poison — compare when it comes to the welfare of animals?

Ms Yourell: I am totally opposed to trapping foxes. There is no need. As Francis pointed out, killing foxes causes chaos in an area. Francis mentioned the Teagasc study: in 2022, it carried out a study on the causes of lamb deaths, and the biggest killer of lambs was infection, followed by difficult births. It went on to list other reasons, but predation was not even mentioned. There is no need to trap or poison foxes or any of that. Just leave them alone. That is my view.

The Chairperson (Ms D Armstrong): OK. Thank you. Do any other members want to ask questions?

We will move to the Bill sponsor, John Blair.

Mr Blair: Aideen and Francis, thank you for your presentation this morning. I appreciate the information that you have given us on the survey of the farming community where you are. It is useful to hear that information. Separate to that sector, important as it is, in your broader work, are you aware of wider public support outside the farming sector and across the community for a hunting with dogs Bill where you are?

Ms Yourell: Yes. We commissioned a survey from RED C, a polling company, in 2019, and 77% of Irish citizens wanted hunting with dogs banned. As I said, it is not that the Irish people do not want hare coursing and fox hunting banned — they do — but I am afraid that we are saddled with a Government who just turn a blind eye.

They do not want to ban anything. They are afraid to ban stuff in case they might lose a few votes. It is down to that, I am afraid.

Mr Ward: I think that most young people are not really aware that it exists, to be honest. I think that most people are oblivious to hunting with hounds; they are not really aware of it.

Any farmer who lambs indoors, which most farmers do now, has no issues with foxes. It is just not an issue.

Mr T Buchanan: If I picked you up correctly, you said that you were totally opposed to farmers carrying out pest control. How do you propose that farmers protect their livestock and crops from foxes and other predators? If you take away their right to carry out pest control, how do you expect them to protect their farms? I used to farm sheep. When I was out one morning, I saw a fox going across a field with a lamb in its mouth. It was not a dead lamb; it was alive. Another day, I saw a ewe that was about to lamb, and a fox was circling her in the field. It was ready for the ewe to lamb; it would have lifted one of them and been away with it. If you were to take away a farmer's right to carry out pest control, how would he protect his animals?

Mr Ward: You lamb indoors. What I took from the survey was that a lot of farmers lamb certain breeds in January, which cuts that out. Foxes will have their cubs and start rearing them from March. The month of March is the tricky time; it is the hungry time. A lot of farmers lamb in January, which cuts out that issue. If you lamb indoors and keep those lambs indoors for up to three weeks, you will not have an issue with foxes.

I am not disputing the fact that a fox can kill a lamb; there is no doubt about that. There is also no doubt about the fact that, if there is a rogue fox that keeps coming back, the farmer has the right to shoot it. However, if protective measures are taken, if there is education and if habitat is encouraged for the foxes, you will not have an issue. Most farmers lamb indoors and do not have an issue with foxes; I cannot emphasise that enough. It is about protection: protection, protection, protection.

Mr T Buchanan: They may well lamb indoors, but it is much healthier for the animal if the farmer lambs the sheep outdoors. That is a much healthier option.

Mr Ward: Yes, but some who lamb indoors let the lambs out during the day and take them back in at night, although not every farmer will have the option of doing that. Over a period of 11 years, farmers in Dorset put protective fencing around their lambs for the first few days so that the lambs could get strong. They buried any dead animals in a pit so that badgers or foxes never got the taste of any dead lambs or animals. They were successful: for a total of 11 years, they never had a kill by foxes or badgers.

The Chairperson (Ms D Armstrong): Francis, if there is no pest control and the fox population increases, does that not put more stress on the fox population to find food?

Mr Ward: Foxes are not under threat. You can look up David Macdonald's research. As I said, he has done 50 years of work on the topic. In those circumstances, foxes will breed less, but there will still be natural death and disease. Foxes will also go off to find their own territory. In addition, lamping for foxes is rampant. It is a hard life for a fox to survive out there. It is a different story in urban areas, but there is no issue in rural areas, because that is the natural way. Foxes do not live for that long — eight years tops — but, as I said, as is the case with the other predators at the top of the food chain, such as lions, tigers and wolves, that is the way that is intended to be. They were not intended to have predators. Death and disease are the predators.

The Chairperson (Ms D Armstrong): You also see more foxes going into urban areas because of the lack of opportunity to find food in their natural habitat.

Mr Ward: It is a possibility. It is also because people are feeding them. Here is another issue: some farmers feed foxes, which is dangerous. A farmer doing that attracts foxes to the farm and, if that farmer dies, the new farmer coming in might have an issue with the foxes, or the foxes will go up to neighbouring houses and get shot. It is a no-no to feed foxes. I cannot emphasise that enough.

I did some studies in Clot de Galvany in Spain, an area where foxes are protected. That is a 366-hectare nature reserve with 238 bird species. It has all the protected breeding waders that we have here. Foxes are there and are protected in the reserve, but there are loads of rabbits and hares. There is no issue with the breeding wader birds. They do not even have to use protective nest cages there. It is left alone. There is enough food. Foxes usually go for rodents anyway.

As I said, in some areas, there are issues with foxes attacking sheep, but that has to be looked at in more depth. It is happening in the areas where foxes are being shot the whole time.

The Chairperson (Ms D Armstrong): OK. Thanks, Francis.

Mr Wilson: We have received information from other organisations on the prolificness of certain activities, the incidents of which were said to be in the many hundreds. When we sought evidence from judicial sources in Northern Ireland, those numbers were found to have been wildly inflated. From that perspective, have you considered evidence from farm, countryside and wildlife management organisations that might take a different view from yours? If that is the case, how have you evaluated that evidence to form your opinions?

The Chairperson (Ms D Armstrong): I think that that is directed to you, Francis.

Mr Ward: I have not been aware of them. That is why I decided to do the survey: to talk to farmers personally on the phone and at some of the sheep marts. I wanted to talk to farmers on the ground. That is all that I can tell you. I have been talking to real-life farmers. Some are older farmers, and some are younger farmers. I can tell you that it is a wealth of information. I could be doing three surveys here. I could also be doing a survey on TB and badgers and a survey on predation by kestrels, pine martens and eagles. What I hear about foxes, as I said, is that most farmers do not have an issue with them.

Lambing is a business. Sometimes, you have bad farmers who have bad practices and just leave animals to the elements. The mountain sheep farmers are at greater risk. They need support from the Government to get the sheep down from the mountains and build sheds or have guardian animals. Spain and France use shepherds. It takes three weeks to get a lamb up to the strength at which you do not need to protect it any more. Some farmers need support. The mountain sheep farmers have the biggest issues.

The Chairperson (Ms D Armstrong): Thanks, Francis.

Have we any further questions from the Committee?

I have one final question for Aideen. How should we balance cultural traditions such as hunting with modern welfare standards?

Ms Yourell: If a cultural tradition is cruel, the fact that it is a tradition does not make it right. It is cruel, and that is it. That is what I would say. It was traditional to have dogfighting, bull-baiting, bear-baiting and cockfighting, but that did not justify them. That fact that it is tradition and culture does not justify the barbarism and the cruelty.

The Chairperson (Ms D Armstrong): Thank you, Aideen.

If there are no further questions, we will leave it there. Thank you, both, for speaking to us. Your evidence has been taken and will be considered. Thank you for that. We wish you a good morning.