Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Thank you very much indeed, Eimear and Aisling, for coming along this morning. Eimear is the director, and Aisling is the project coordinator. I invite you to make an opening statement.

Ms Eimear Ní Mhathúna (Cultúrlann McAdam Ó Fiaich): Go raibh maith agat. Tá cúpla duine anseo nár labhair mise Béarla leo riamh, ach tá mé chun seo a dhéanamh i mBéarla. There are a few people here to whom I have never spoken in English. We decided to do this through English so that we can all understand. On the subject of inclusion of the working classes in the arts, we propose to tell you a bit about Cultúrlann: what we are doing, how we engage with people and what we feel would help us do that.

Cultúrlann is an arts and cultural centre dedicated to the promotion of Irish language arts. It has been based in a Presbyterian church building on the Falls Road since 1991. We produce a complete range of arts events catering for all ages and interests, with the mission of promoting the Irish language through the arts and the arts through the Irish language.

Irish is the working language of the building and offices. We try to provide a good service to people who speak the language and to those who are trying to learn, at whatever level, and to give a welcoming flavour of Irish culture and language to the increasing numbers of tourists and visitors to the centre. It is about normalising the language in wider society, assimilating it into life and increasing participation and accessibility.

We have the arts centre, which comprises a theatre, gallery spaces, workshop spaces, a shop, a tourist information point, bookshop, café, restaurant and also rooms that we let out to other people as well. We have a number of creative industries, I suppose, that are based in the building. There are a couple of television production companies, a lifestyle magazine, a design company, et cetera. It is about creating a hub where people who are either part of the Irish language community or interested in it in any way can feel at home and be accommodated.

We have a number of different funders, the main ones being the Arts Council, Foras na Gaeilge, Belfast City Council, et cetera, and we have nine staff. We also bring in a lot of other people to teach glasses, et cetera. We offer a certain number of placements, covering drama, music, dance and the visual arts; we have regular activities, such as workshops and classes. About 300 people attend classes weekly. As well as our own events, we are also a venue for other festivals around the city, such as Féile an Phobail, Féile an Earraigh, the Young at Art Festival, the Belfast Film Festival, Seachtain na Gaeilge, Community Relations Week and Positive Aging Week. We hope to be part of a new festival, the Science Festival, in the spring as well. Really, if it is on, we try to be part of it and, again, normalise the language and have events for our community as well.

We are situated in an area that suffers from high levels of disadvantage and intergenerational unemployment; it is deeply affected both by lack of investment and historically from the Troubles. I think that the success of the Cultúrlann really has been that we have reacted to the needs of the community and tried to provide for it. We see ourselves very much as a community arts organisation; we are rooted in the community, and we reach out as much as we possibly can. We do a lot of things to encourage access. Our ticket pricing is very reasonable compared with anywhere else in Belfast. We also provide free ticketing for various events for our local community and for groups that use it to draw people in as much as possible. We also pass people on from attendance at our centres to other events around the city. We are sending people to the Bolshoi exhibition. We also have an arrangement with the Strand Cinema whereby some of our senior citizens will be able to visit it. We do things like that just to encourage people to be part of it.

Ms Aisling Ní Labhraí (Cultúrlann McAdam Ó Fiaich): We do a lot of partnership work with other organisations throughout Belfast as well, particularly arts organisations or community groups and centres.

Ms Ní Mhathúna: One of the recent new events that we started, in partnership with the Montague Centre beside us, is a choir for elderly people or those who may have the onset of dementia. That has been an amazing bit of outreach work on our doorstep. Once you start it, you see the difference that it makes to people's lives — it has actually been very humbling for all of us — particularly to people who do not get out, such as a man whose wife died a few years ago and who had not really been leaving the house since. Something that gives somebody an opportunity to get out and mix with other people is vital. We try to be very cognisant of things like that and what the opportunities are around us.

I suppose that the café and bookshop, the services on the ground floor, are great enablers to make it easy for people to come in and access them. Once you are in the café, if you look to the left, there is an art gallery. If you go in there, you go upstairs and there is another one. The building is pretty much designed to lead people around it and to engage them as well.

Regular activities start from sounds and movement for nought- to five-year-olds and go up to various classes for, as I say, third-age people. We also have annual art competitions for schools. We have school gallery visits, which are really important in reaching out to communities. We have an Irish dancing school that uses the building and a resident theatre company in the building, but other local theatre groups will use it. Basically, if we are not using the building, we try to ensure that other people are. We have music and language classes, a traditional choir, a women's choir and a choir for elderly people. We have open music sessions as well.

In 2011, we opened an extension to the building with a cocktail of funders. A condition of funding from the International Fund for Ireland was that we should employ a good-relations officer. That post, which was Aisling's post, lasted until the end of 2013. There was big learning in that because up until then, we knew that we could do more outreach work, but I would not really have imagined how much more we could do and how much more effective we could be when we had somebody to dedicate to the role. We do not have a big staff; we are all flat out doing what we do. Having somebody whose job it is to go out and bring people in was massively important to us. Because of Aisling, the Townsend Street festival started. It is a cross-community festival that works with the most deprived post-code areas. The Presbyterian Church, schools, including Edenderry Nursery School and Malvern Primary School, and many groups, including ones from Browns Square and Finn Square, are part of it. It has been really successful. This was its fourth year.

Ms Ní Labhraí: Part of the outreach is that we work with residents' associations. Often, I find with arts organisations that when they say that they work with a community group, they are working with a paid community worker who does not live in the area, whereas we were really trying to target people who lived right beside where the festival would be. It is called a "festival", but it is actually a street party. The reason that we chose a street party is because it is deeply set in working-class culture to have street parties. Often when we engage with people in the arts, you are looking at something outside what they are used to, so we were trying to do something that people were used to and bring it to another level.

Ms Ní Mhathúna: Other projects that came out of that were Cultural Connections between Windsor Women's Centre and the 174 Trust. At the time, the 174 Trust was building the Duncairn Centre for Culture and Arts, so there was an automatic link there. Some great art projects were part of that as well, which, again, were drawing people into areas that they had not been in before and, as organisations, we were working together, so we could learn from each other as well.

Making Our Truth Visible was another, really emotional, project that we did between ourselves, the Falls Women's Centre, women from the Shankill Road and refugee women who are based across the border. That was a photographic exhibition, which brought a lot of people in. It brought to the forefront a lot of the fears and inequalities that people have. 'Walk the walk' is another exhibition that got people from the Falls and Shankill roads walking in each other's areas, reminiscing about the areas and getting together, very much at a ground level. Those were very successful exhibitions.

The problem is that the funding for Aisling's job came to an end. We applied to OFMDFM for funding to start last April, and we still have not had word one way or the other. Fortunately, we have secured funding from Creative and Cultural Belfast for another big cross-community project that is very much rooted in our working-class areas, and Aisling is now employed in a role in that project. That project will do a lot of work in the communities, and will look at the River Farset from its source out to the River Lagan. For the next two years, we will be doing what I imagine is the biggest cross-community, community-based arts project in the city, with opportunities for all ages and interests to be part of it. Had we not got that funding, we would have lost the post and much of what we are saying that we are doing would, to be honest, be in the past tense. I do not know how we would have maintained that without the post.

Our biggest recommendation is that you need people. Getting into communities is about relationship-building and making friends. It is so important that you have somebody who can be dedicated to that, who will be away in a year or whatever.

Also vital is engaging young people in the arts so that they develop the practice of attending and participating in events. We have a very vibrant youth programme and engage the schools and from nought to fives and above. We have a puppet programme, a theatre school and music classes. We also have a youth club to which about fifty kids come every week, and they also use the community gallery to build an exhibition with links to local schools. Coláiste Feirste holds its annual exhibition in the centre. We also have an archeologist, who has done different exhibitions and has brought in different schools. We have a vibrant youth engagement programme , and that is crucial. After that, it is really about establishing the value of the arts across society. That is a job for government. It must be cross-cutting. Sin mo chuid.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Thank you. I want to make a couple of observations. I have been to the centre on a number of occasions and have some understanding of how it functions, how it is structured and so on. Will you comment on this? I want to know why the centre works, and I will give three reasons. Is it supportive of the arts in the area because is indigenous to and rooted in the area? As opposed to dipping in and moving away, it is very much rooted in that area and is permanent. Secondly, does it work because it is a good financial model and you have stuck to the course? The centre is a form of cultural immersion and, when you go into it, you sense that you are in a place that is Irish-speaking. I was only there for the apple tart.

Ms Ní Mhathúna: The apple tart is good.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): It is extremely good; I want to put that on record. It was not the only reason I was there, but it was one of the attractions.

Mr Humphrey: Did you pay for it?

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): That was the second attraction.

Mr Ó hOisín: Did you ask for it in Irish?

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): No, just Ulster-Scots.

Mr B McCrea: What did you have with it?

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Thirdly, there is a cultural ecology in that area that works. There is a relationship between a whole series of cultural initiatives, including your relationship with Féile and different other elements. A sustainable cultural life has been established. In some other working-class communities, there may not be the same artistic activity or engagement with the arts and so on.

Will you comment on those three points? There is a good indigenous, rooted model and a cultural ecology that works.

Ms Ní Mhathúna: When Cultúrlann started, it was about opening up the Irish language and getting a place where people would feel comfortable and would not feel that they had to be fluent to go into it. At the same time, the founders saw it as creating a service or place to go for Irish speakers and learners of Irish. Over time, we have discovered that there are a lot more people who are interested in it and want to see it. Tourists come to see it.

While it started off providing Irish theatre and music, we have extended an awful lot and have created gallery spaces; we have also endeavoured to bring people in. On its own, the model works quite well and is sustainable to a degree. However, to be really sustainable we have had to look far beyond the Irish-language community. We do that actively and work at doing that. We certainly would not still be running events if we were dependent on Irish speakers or learners of Irish only; we are also dependent on the English-speaking community to come in and be part of our events.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): When I was speaking about the financial model, I was thinking of the fact that you have tenants who presumably pay rent to the centre. So, whatever funding the magazine or the television company get they will pay rent and there is a recycling of that funding.

Ms Ní Mhathúna: Yes, and that works to a degree. Some of those organisations are also struggling; the theatre company is struggling. We work with one another. I suppose that the café and bookshop are more about bringing money in. The model works, but I am not sure that it helps us to progress access on its own. We have had the benefit of time, have grown over time and have reacted to what people wanted. However, we have also reacted to people outside.

Mr Ó hOisín: Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. Tá fáilte romhaibh go dtí an Coiste ar maidin. You are very welcome to the Committee. As a Gaeilgeoir, I know of the work of Cultúrlann McAdam Ó Fiaich. It has been incredible how the place has developed through the years and how the word has spread. We also have Cultúrlann Uí Chanáin in Derry and one in Iúr Cinn Trá and, through the Ciste Infheistíochta, rural cultúrlanns are also being developed.

This is not a criticism, but many of your outreach programmes seem to be Belfast-centric. How have you integrated or connected with cultúrlanns elsewhere, including the proposed rural ones that will be developed?

Ms Ní Mhathúna: To date, we have not. We have certainly had conversations with representatives of Cultúrlann Uí Chanáin, but we really are quite Belfast-centric. At the moment, we are involved in a project with CeangalG, which is linking with the greater Gaeltacht of Scotland and Ireland. In that, we would be linking up with An Carn and a little bit more with Derry. We are connected to Irish language arts groups across the island of Ireland and in the North as well. That is a relatively new initiative to bring all the Irish language arts groups together. Gradually, they are coming on board, and we have been very much part of that. It is across Donegal and the nine counties. We hope that other groups will join in, and they are being invited to. However, we have been working a bit more with An Carn and Aisling Ghéar Theatre Company.

Mr Ó hOisín: I am glad to hear that. An Carn is the best example of the rural development of the language, arts and the community.

You are coming up to your twenty-fifty anniversary. What expansion plans are there, or can you tell us?

Ms Ní Mhathúna: What money do you have?

Mr Ó hOisín: Personally —

Ms Ní Mhathúna: We have just done a big extension to the building, and we have a major project coming up with Creative Belfast, which will take up a lot of our time. An element of consolidation needs to happen as well, because we want to be sustainable into the next 25 years. Certainly, we would like to buy out the rest of our building. A part at the back is being used by another charitable organisation; it would like to move, and we would like to move into it. We feel that we could do a lot with the space, and it will take Departments to join up together to make that happen. We would like to expand, although we will not hold our breath over the next couple of years. We feel that we can expand and do so much more. There is high demand for all our spaces; we have no empty space. Rooms frequently double up: rooms that are galleries during the day are classrooms at night.

Ms Ní Labhraí: Our theatre could use a bit of a makeover. I went to school in the building that we now work in. I was one of the first students from Meánscoil Feirste, and our theatre is pretty much the same as it was when I had my school lunches there when I was doing my GCSEs. We could do with a bit of a refurb.

Mr Ó hOisín: Go raibh míle maith agaibh, agus ádh mór leis sin.

Mrs McKevitt: Thank you very much for your presentation. I do not speak Gaelic, but your presentation has given me a great insight into the good work that you do. I have family members whose first language at home is Gaelic. I know that you are based in Belfast, but I want to know what outreach programmes you have for the surrounding council areas, if any, or whether you have any in your future plans. Since Líofa was established, have your groups seen an uptake of that programme?

Ms Ní Mhathúna: There is Líofa and the fact that we had a shiny new building. Across the board, everything that we have done in the last few years has seen an increase in numbers. There is definitely huge interest in learning the language, and it is coming from everywhere. We are reacting to that and doing more classes during the day. I accept that we do not reach out enough to rural areas, although there is a little bit of that. For example, Fleadh Feirste is coming up at the end of November, and we will widely publicise it and try to bring people in. We will also engage schools in the arts competition, for example.

Santa Claus is coming to the Cultúrlann, and we have a lot of groups coming from rural areas, including youth and school groups. It is not an awful lot. We are working across the Province with Irish language arts groups. We are bringing an exhibition to Donegal at the end of the month, for example; and the people in Donegal will bring an exhibition back to us next year. So it really comes down to human resources.

Ms Ní Labhraí: Yes. Much of the outreach work that we have done over the past few years has come through me and a lot of that has been on a good-relations basis. That is how I was employed. For example, we would have more engagement with people from Castlereagh than from Andytown, maybe. That is just down to how the funding streams came. I was funded to do that kind of work, so that was the kind of work that we did.

Ms Ní Mhathúna: Although, to be fair, we have drawn in, for example, the Falls Women's Centre. It is involved in a number of things.

Ms Ní Labhraí: Through that, yes, but, in terms of schools, we would have Ashfield and so on.

Mrs McKevitt: You have 300 people using your premises weekly. That seems a big number. I have never been, but I will endeavour —

Ms Ní Mhathúna: A lot more than 300 people use our premises weekly; that is only the number of people who are involved in weekly events. We have other people coming in to use the spaces for meetings etc, community groups coming and using it and all the other things. We reckon that about 100,000 people come through the doors per year.

Mrs McKevitt: That is a lot.

Ms McCorley: Go raibh maith agat, a Cathaoirligh. Thanks, Chair. Go raibh maith agaibh as teacht anseo ar maidin agus as an chur i láthair.

Thank you for coming this morning, and thanks for the presentation. I declare an interest as an Irish language activist and a member of Ciste Infheistíochta na Gaeilge, whose remit is to see the establishment of as many cultúrlanns as possible set up throughout the North. The Cultúrlann in west Belfast has been the model and the pioneer of that work. I suppose that it fulfils the need of the growing Irish language community to have a life outside the home and the school, where people go to meet others, use their Irish, enjoy the culture and what they can get from it. Maith sibh as an obair sin. The outreach work that you do, Aisling, is really good.

I wonder about the tourism aspect. Tourists are drawn to the Cultúrlann; it is a landmark for them. Do you do much to reach out internationally, or does it just happen? How does that work for you?

Ms Ní Mhathúna: Absolutely, we reach out to people. We have been focusing on cruise ships for a few years and getting more of those groups in. We do a Gaeltacht experience for them. Normally, it is in the evening, but it can be lunchtime as well. People come for a meal; there may be an exhibition of Irish dancing, live music and it ends with a céilí, which they are all expected to get up and take part in. So, yes, we have been bringing in more groups to do that. We also have links with certain universities in northern Europe, and conflict resolution people come. We have a number of small and larger groups that come annually from America to do workshops, such as bodhrán workshops, and various other things. So, we focus on that. We work closely with the Belfast Welcome Centre and Fáilte Feirste Thiar, obviously. That is an important one.

Ms Ní Labhraí: We have all just done WorldHost training, as well, which is the same thing. The Cultúrlann has always been a tourist attraction, even when I was in school. I can remember groups of tourists coming in and us waving to them during a maths class, so we are just building on that.

Ms McCorley: Sure. We know about the east Belfast Irish language project, which is successful and to be commended. Do you do outreach work? Is there any evidence that more of that is happening? It is important that everyone understands that the Irish language is for everybody. There was unfortunately a bit of negative publicity this week around the Irish language. How do you get round that? Do you meet hostility? How is the cross-community work going?

Ms Ní Labhraí: It depends. I meet people all the time. Sometimes it is very successful; other times it is not quite as successful. We have run Irish language classes on the Shankill Road without publicising it or it ever being known, primarily because that is what the people learning it feel most comfortable doing. I have been in some buildings before that might be a bit intimidating, but I do not find them so and it is fine. Some people may be intimidated by the Irish language, but, generally, after a while, once they realise that we do not have an agenda, it is fine.

What Linda is doing is fantastic. Once she started her Irish language classes, we went over and chatted to the classes to tell them what we had. She brings them over to us, they get their lunch and we do tours and things. We have worked with the Spectrum Centre for a long time. We never started Irish language classes there; however, they have been quite keen on the céilidhs. For us, it is more about, first, breaking down the barriers of people's attitude towards us. It is not necessarily that anybody has to learn Irish, but it is more that everybody can tolerate each other.

A lot of groundwork has to be done before anything else can move on. We have a group from Ballysillan, the Shankill and Ardoyne called Women United who come in and learn Irish with us. They already had that cross-community ethos and come in to learn Irish from us. We used to work with the Shankill Women's Centre, only it lost funding for its community outreach officer. We have ended up getting a lot of its groups coming to us. It has been very positive; we have not really experienced anything too negative. As Eimear said, we have the Townsend Street party, and in the last one that we had there was a bit of Irish on the banner, and on the Shankill side it was cut down. However, that has been the only real negative. On an individual level, people are quite happy to engage but maybe not just publicly.

Mr B McCrea: I have been up a couple of times and even, I think, took part in an Irish language radio broadcast, which was pretty interesting because I did not speak very much Irish. Anyway, I gave it a go. I am interested in how brave you may want to be. Obviously, there is a sort of political attachment to the language that you may not be that comfortable with. I do not know what your position is, but the Irish language has a certain political element. How do you think we would depoliticise it?

Ms Ní Mhathúna: If it is politicised, it is politicised by other people and not by us. From the beginning, Cultúrlann was very lucky that its founders were non-political, non-religious and just saw it as normalising the language. That has been very strong from the beginning.

Mr B McCrea: You used the word "if": do you think that I am wrong to say that it is politicised? Do you think that that is not correct?

Ms Ní Mhathúna: I think that other people will try to politicise it; I do not think that we politicise it. You know what? It is my language, and we are not interested in that. If you do not want to learn it, you do not need to, but you need to accept that it is my language and that it is my right to speak it.

Mr B McCrea: But you can also say that it is my language; I was taught it at school as well.

Ms Ní Mhathúna: Yes, of course it is.

Mr B McCrea: I went to school in a —

Ms Ní Mhathúna: But at this stage of your life, Basil, if you want to speak it that is great, and I will do anything to encourage you; if you do not want to, I am equally easy with that.

Mr B McCrea: I say this gently, but we need to be braver. I have had Linda up here singing choral stuff in Irish and whatever. However, I wonder how you try to reach cultural norms. I am not going to put you on the spot, but there was a very interesting 'Spotlight' programme recently about Irish nationalists who were involved in the Somme. I wonder how you take the strength of your branding and try to incorporate other people's, about whether we can have exhibitions and such like on those types of things. Could Cultúrlann do something about the Somme?

Ms Ní Labhraí: Not necessarily about the Somme: we are an Irish language arts organisation, and it might not be our place to do that. However, if you are saying that people might see us as a nationalist organisation, we are called Cultúrlann McAdam Ó Fiaich. McAdam is from Robert Shipboy McAdam, a Presbyterian businessman from the 19th century who ran the Soho Foundry — you might know the song about the boys of the Soho Foundry. We have done quite a lot to engage people through that person. To go back to the Townsend Street festival, the Soho Foundry was on Townsend Street and employed 90-something per cent Protestants. Those were Presbyterian people who were engaged in reviving the Irish language; it is not just about people from a nationalist background. The history is not nationalist.

Ms Ní Mhathúna: Absolutely. We promote the language and are very proud to do so. However, when you go into areas with other sensibilities, you have to be mindful of that. We work with certain groups that do not want us to publicise what we are doing because they are afraid that it will create difficulties in their area. We have to respect that.

Ms Ní Labhraí: Linda is very brave, but not everybody feels able to do that.

Ms Ní Mhathúna: There is an awful lot more interest in the Irish language among Protestant communities around Belfast. It is not all in east Belfast.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Basil, the purpose today is not to have an exploration of the Irish language; that is a subject that we may well look at on some other occasion. It is an inquiry into the arts in working-class communities. The focus is on the success, and the reasons for that success, of Cultúrlann in promoting and developing the arts in that part of west Belfast.

Mr B McCrea: What I was trying to explore, Chair, was that, if you look at the Somme, you will see that there was an Ulster Division and an Irish Division. There are issues in looking at some unity where the thing comes across. I will finish, because you want me to move on, but the word Cultúrlann does not resonate with me particularly. I do not really get it. The name of the gentleman is somewhat lost in there. It is not a problem, but it is not reaching out to me. I am one of the people who are very supportive. I am all for it.

However, we have to talk to people, not in — pardon the pun — our language but in theirs; we need to find ways of reaching people on their terms. Once you do that, people will realise that there is a lot of shared history and that Presbyterians did an awful lot for the Irish language. When I went to Skye, I saw that everything there is written in Gaelic. There are connections that are non-threatening and uniting. However, we need to look at things on other people's terms.

Ms Ní Mhathúna: Take the example of the stained glass window that we did in Cultúrlann with Windsor Women's Centre, the congregation that moved from the building that we are in to south Belfast. We connected with them and they designed the window. We then had all the mór-uaisle of the Presbyterian Church there, as well as people who had been in the Girls' Brigade in that building. It was their community building when they were children, and they were really happy that it is still a community building. That was a hugely successful project, but it was also a natural project. There was a natural link, and it was a really good way of connecting with people.

Mr Humphrey: Thank you very much for your presentation. Eimear, you said that part of your organisation's role is normalising the Irish language and Irish language arts. As the Chair said, today's session is about your reach into working-class communities, and you mentioned the particular socio-economic difficulties in west Belfast.

The Committee has heard evidence from other groups like yours. I am personally aware of the work of the Spectrum Centre, but we have equally received evidence and testimony from, for example, the east Belfast arts people. One of the things that they said was that there is a difficulty in getting people from east Belfast to cross the bridge and go into the city centre. We also received evidence from New Lodge Arts that the people in that area perhaps needed an incentive to go to the MAC, which is not terribly far from there. Wherever they come from in the city, there is a problem with working-class people going to and participating in the arts, whether that is actually participating or just going along to watch or listen. We also heard from the Crescent Arts Centre about problems of attracting people from the lower Ormeau Road and Sandy Row areas, even though it is between those two areas.

How are you addressing that? I picked up on two things that you said. You talked about older folk going over to east Belfast to the Strand cinema and people from west Belfast going to see the Bolshoi Ballet. I come from and live in a working-class area, and I know that it would not normally be on the top of people's list to go to the Bolshoi Ballet. How do you get people to take part in those things, and what difficulties have you had to overcome to enable them to do that?

Ms Ní Labhraí: Transport.

Ms Ní Mhathúna: If you build a group, there is a group dynamic and people are already engaged. So, when you offer something like that, they want to do it. That is how it has happened.

Ms Ní Labhraí: To bring another group into our centre, the first thing that we have to do is go to their centre. You build up a relationship. You also have to have the money to pay for a bus and get the free tickets. It is about all those things.

Mr Humphrey: So, it is transport and free tickets.

Ms Ní Labhraí: I have found that transport is a big issue for us. If we are doing something with the Strand cinema or —

Ms Ní Mhathúna: With schools, the big block is that we need a bus. It is ridiculous.

Ms Ní Labhraí: It is not even that it is a cross-community issue. There are lots of people around us who do not leave their areas, who get everything that they need in their own area and would not feel comfortable going to the MAC, the Opera House or wherever else. You have to —

Mr Humphrey: I do not mean to be rude and interrupt you, but why do they not feel comfortable?

Ms Ní Labhraí: They are just not used to it. I suppose that not leaving your own area might be a legacy of the Troubles, but there is also a feeling that it may not be for them or that they may not feel welcome. Something that the Cultúrlann does very well is its design. Our gallery is visible from the outside and you know what you are walking into. Sometimes, it can be a wee bit intimidating to go into some buildings that are absolutely fabulous but you do not know what is inside and how people will react to you.

Ms Ní Mhathúna: That is why you should build the group dynamic first in the Cultúrlann or the Spectrum Centre; those are places in their communities that they feel easy to come into. It then becomes much easier to bring them somewhere else.

Mr Humphrey: When we had the guys up from the Spectrum Centre, they said that people in the Shankill readily identify, take part in and celebrate their culture, but that the arts are seen as a bit more detached and highbrow. I agree with that analysis. I am interested in your perspective from the Falls and the west Belfast community, which is largely nationalist. What is your view on that?

Ms Ní Labhraí: It depends on what your idea of the arts is, really.

Mr Humphrey: It is self-defining.

Ms Ní Mhathúna: I think that people are quite open to engaging; we have so many people who come to exhibitions. Taking part in the community gallery area is always well subscribed. Community drama is very strong in the area.

Ms Ní Labhraí: As is music.

Mr Humphrey: I am not saying that they are not engaging: I am asking whether you think that they are engaging in what they see as their culture rather than the arts? That is the point that I am trying to make.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): The point is what they identify with.

Mr Humphrey: Yes, the self-definition.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): They see certain things as being relevant to them.

Mr Humphrey: Yes.

Ms Ní Labhraí: It is hard to answer that question because it is often hard to split culture and arts. It depends on what you identify as your culture.

Mr Humphrey: OK. Finally, you mentioned Creative and Cultural Belfast. That is the new fund from the council, is it not?

Ms Ní Labhraí: Yes.

Mr Humphrey: What will you do with the money that you have been allocated?

Ms Ní Mhathúna: Wonderful things.

Ms Ní Labhraí: We are partners with the Spectrum Centre for that, so we know the guys quite well.

The initiative is based on the River Farset, and much of it is about challenging what we think of as our communities and how they are there. If you look at the course of the River Farset as it runs from Squire's Hill down to the River Lagan, and the communities that grew up around it, you see that they grew up through industry. Many of the mills, foundries and factories are not there any more. A lot of the mill houses are not there any more, except the wonderful ones on Tennent Street, but the communities are still there. So, it is really a way of engaging them with that heritage, but through the arts. We hope to have a spectacle event in 2016, which, we hope, will raise the bar for what is expected in the communities that the river flows through. We also hope that it will be informed by the communities.

We have a community steering group made up of various people who live, work, go to school and who are stakeholders in the area. It is about the idea of a shared story and how we bring that to life. Often, when people talk about community art, they expect only a certain amount of professionalism from it. Even when we are doing the applications, there is an awful lot of, "What is community art?" We are trying to bring this to a greater level and have something that gives people a source of pride to say, "That took place here."

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): I want to draw the session to an end, but I want to pick up on a couple of areas and ask two questions. Rosie McCorley mentioned an organisation that she is involved with which uses Cultúrlann, in a sense, as a model and pioneer for cultúrlanns elsewhere, such as the one in Londonderry. Perhaps you and Rosie could give us some sense of how that works.

Ms McCorley: I said a wee bit about the intention. A cultúrlann is a hub of activity that is a focal point for gaeilgeoirí; a place where people can go to socialise and use their Irish. I think that Cultúrlann has been really successful in doing that in west Belfast; it is on the map. Now, we have cultúrlanns in Derry, Carntogher and Armagh. A number of other projects are seeking to create a cultúrlann of their own. I am sure that you would agree that each of them is unique; they are not identical. They all grow up in the community in which they are rooted, and they have their own particular aspects. For instance, Séamus McArdle was the person who granted the legacy of a house to the cultúrlann in Newry. You might know this, Karen. It is a fabulous place, but it is different from the cultúrlanns in Belfast and Derry. The purpose of a cultúrlann is to be a social focal point for people to use Irish.

Ms Ní Mhathúna: I think that what you will find as well is that we get people coming to Cultúrlann not just from the island of Ireland, but from Scotland, Wales and the Isle of Man. It is about reviving minority languages. That is really important.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Is there a network or organisation?

Ms Ní Mhathúna: There is an informal —

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): I was not familiar with the Irish terminology that you used.

Ms McCorley: A body called An Ciste Infheistíochta Gaeilge was set up, which is an Irish language investment fund. It came out of the Hillsborough agreement. Its purpose is to fund capital projects in the Irish language. It fits in with the revival of the Irish language.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): OK. That is helpful indeed.

Thanks very much indeed. It was a bit of a meandering session. We touched on a wide range of issues, but there is no harm in that. We appreciate that very much. Thank you for coming.

Ms Ní Labhraí: Thank you. You are all very welcome.

Ms Ní Mhathúna: Go raibh maith agaibh. Slán.

Mr Ó hOisín: Go raibh maith agaibh.