Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Miss M McIlveen): I welcome Clare-Anne Magee and Nicola McKeown. Thank you very much for being with us this morning. You were in the Public Gallery for the previous session, so, perhaps, you will have been able to anticipate some of the questions that will come your way. If you would like to make an opening statement, that will be followed by questions.

Ms Clare-Anne Magee (Parenting NI): Thank you for having us here today. Parenting NI is very honoured to have been working with parents for the past 35 years, and, for 15 years of that, we have been consulting parents on a wide range of issues. I am the director of the parenting forum, and, for the past 17 years, I have been working with parents, children and young people in the voluntary and community sector. My colleague Nicola McKeown is a participation worker. She is a former primary school teacher and cross-community facilitator at Corrymeela, so she has quite a lot of experience in shared and integrated education.

We are here to present on two consultations that we carried out with parents on shared and integrated education. The first, in 2012, was carried out with focus groups on behalf of the ministerial advisory group, as Mrs Lewsley-Mooney said in the earlier session. It focused specifically on shared education. The second, in September/October this year, was an online consultation with a wide range of parents.

I will give you some background on Parenting NI and our forum work. We are the lead voluntary organisation providing support to parents across Northern Ireland on a wide range of parenting issues. Our four key areas of work are the helpline, our parenting programmes, parents' counselling service and our forum. The work of the forum is to work with parents to improve outcomes for children and young people, and it aims to influence policy and practice on parenting issues. We provide consultation with parents and have done so for the past 15 years. We have over 1,800 individual parents and family support organisations as members of our forum across Northern Ireland.

In October 2012, we were commissioned to carry out consultations with parents on behalf of the QUB ministerial advisory group on shared education. We worked with six focus groups, made up of about 55 parents, across Northern Ireland. They included groups of parents representing the views of primary schools, post-primary schools, early years settings and alternative education programmes. The purpose of that consultation was to provide a platform for parents to air their views on shared education and on how best to move forward, and the questions were provided by the ministerial advisory group.

During the consultation, most parents said that their children had had experience of shared education through, for example, extended or after-school programmes, sports teams, school twinning and joint classes for studying particular subjects. However, a lot of parents did not know what shared education was until other parents in the room started to discuss it and give examples. They did, however, feel that shared education was a positive experience and one that had great benefits for the children. The majority of parents to whom we spoke in the consultation were in favour of advancing shared education in any way, shape or form.

There is a proviso with the consultation. Some parents felt that the consultation had been disguised somewhat as a discussion on shared education; they felt that it was more of a discussion on Northern Ireland's education system, in general, and an attempt to move away from grammar schools towards a comprehensive-type system providing all-ability education in one setting. That point was raised in a lot of the focus groups. One group of parents felt that so strongly that they withdrew from the consultation process before we began, feeling that it was an attack on grammar schools. That gives you an idea that parents had a lot of viewpoints on the education system. Some focus groups went off on tangents here and there, and we had to pull them back quite a bit. However, some important feedback was gained from those who took part.

Based on the inquiry's terms of reference, I pulled out some points from the 2012 report. On definition, parents initially expressed confusion about "shared education", stating that it could be confused with integrated education. As I said, it became clear what it really was only when examples started to be given. In the consultation, shared education focused a lot on mixing, not only on a religious basis but on the basis of ability and gender. The consultation report highlighted the need for the definition to be a bit clearer.

A key barrier to advancing shared education raised by parents was the location of schools. One parent said that having a joint shared education programme with another school in the middle of a "one-sided housing estate" — as they put it — was not always a welcoming environment for children, particularly young children. They also discussed the geographical spread of schools, particularly in rural areas, and felt that this was a major barrier. They felt that the spread also made transport quite difficult, increasing the cost and travel time, which then impacted on timetabling for shared classes.

Parents also felt that general attitudes in Northern Irish society to cross-community work reflected a them-and-us mentality, which needed to be addressed in order to advance shared education. They felt that there was fear among some schools, some parents and some communities, and, therefore, shared education could not be reinforced outside the school environment, which is what is needed. Parents also felt that shared education would not meet the needs of all children: for example, one group had a few parents whose children have complex disabilities, and they felt that their physical and emotional needs had to supersede anything else.

Parents identified some alternative approaches, including good practice initiatives ranging from short-term project focus initiatives on school twinning to cluster group exercises among three or more schools in a particular area, which they felt was very beneficial. Some cluster group exercises focused particularly on working with parents, involving them in the processes of shared education and informing them about the messages and aims that shared education was trying to achieve and how they could help at home.

On the priorities and actions to improve sharing in education, parents identified that early intervention was needed and that it needed to start from very early years, at nursery level. Parents felt that shared education needed to have a clear definition and purpose, and they wanted more opportunities for participation, including theirs. They wanted to address the issues of symbols and religion rather than ignore them, because they felt that, if such discussions took place in a safe space with trained facilitators, they would be much more open, and people would have a better understanding of them.

Some parents looked at the need for changing parts of the curriculum and hoped that it could focus more on citizenship, social education, respect and difference. There was a very mixed response — my colleague will talk about our 2014 survey — to where religious education fits into in this and whether to change to a world religion or remove religious education from schools altogether. Parents also said that, in certain subjects, such as history, they should be encouraged that their children were being taught both sides of the story.

Another priority and action that parents identified was the need to increase funding and to monitor in order to improve accountability so that, if schools are being paid to participate in shared education initiatives, they should be quality initiatives that make a real difference. They wanted to raise awareness of shared education and promote that in schools and with teachers and parents. They encouraged parental participation at all levels in order to reinforce the key messages.

I will hand over to Nicola, who will talk about the 2014 report that we completed.

Ms Nicola McKeown (Parenting NI): In response to the consultation carried out in 2012, the parenting forum wanted to gain more up-to-date information and views from parents on the issues of shared education and, especially, integrated education. Our experience has been that parents welcomed having that input. We decided to go with an online survey, using a consultation tool and questions based on the Committee's terms of reference.

This survey had the advantage of gaining a wider response from parents across Northern Ireland in a very short period. We had a very quick turnaround. The survey was initiated towards the end of September and closed two weeks later, in early October.

Publicity to promote the survey was generated by Parenting NI on social media networks such as Facebook and Twitter, as well as through our professional networks: for example, the education and library boards, our parenting forum database, which, as Clare-Anne has already mentioned, has over 1,800 individual parent and organisation members, as well as sending it out through newsletters and our parenting forum E-brief. It was distributed far and wide across Northern Ireland. In total, 1,297 parents viewed the survey, 502 parents completed some, but not all, questions, and 209 parents completed all of our questions.

I will highlight some of the key findings that we gleaned from the survey. In response to the Committee's question on the nature and definition of shared and integrated education, parents' responses varied again, as in 2012. Some parents had still not heard or were not familiar with the term "shared education", and a small minority commented on the fact that they did not know that there was a difference between shared and integrated education. However, the majority of parents who responded said that their understanding of shared education was about bringing pupils from Catholic and Protestant schools together to share resources, classes and facilities, with some saying that it should be about more than just sharing between Protestant and Catholic schools and that it could mean the twinning of Protestant schools. Parents seemed to have a clearer understanding that integrated education meant one school roof, under which pupils from all religious backgrounds were educated together and the words "tolerance" and "respective differences" were being promoted and taught.

Just out of interest, we asked parents who completed the survey how many of them had a child or children attending an integrated school or preschool, and 65% of respondents said that they had. We went on to ask whether parents would consider sending their child to an integrated school, and 61% of the parents who responded said that they would.

In response to the question about key barriers to shared education, parents identified that sharing classes did not necessarily mean that pupils were mixing or building relationships. Parents said that that needed to be nurtured by staff, although they realised that parents needed to be involved in that as well. There is in issue when parents present their views to children who are then told something else in school.

Some parents thought that shared education was a diversion from schools being fully integrated and that it was part of the process towards full integration, which many would prefer. They felt that practical arrangements of timetabling and transport to other schools could become problematic, as could the size of classes and appropriate facilities. Parents said that differences could be a barrier. Some wanted differences to be talked about; others thought that highlighting differences was not always a good thing, particularly if not handled or managed appropriately by staff.

Parents identified some key barriers to integrated education. Currently, there are a limited number of pupil places available. Existing integrated schools are not always nearby, especially for parents who live rurally. Some parents had the perception that academic standards can be or are lower in integrated schools due to their accepting pupils of all abilities, as opposed to the higher academic standards required by grammar schools. That seems to be a misconception reflected in the viewpoint of parents across Northern Ireland. However, parents felt that sharing education is a step in the right direction to living a shared future in Northern Ireland, as it encourages communities to work together. They wanted all stakeholders, including community groups, community representatives and parents, to be involved in educating children and for communities to learn to respect and learn from one another. They also liked the fact that, in shared education, the individual school ethos and identity that they had chosen for their child was retained and not merged into an integrated status in which there was one ethos.

Key enablers that parents identified to integrated education included children being integrated from an early age. This is how parents see Northern Ireland working its way forward, because perceived barriers are broken down much earlier, reducing the fear of the perceived "other", as can sometimes happen. Parents mentioned that integrated schools are inclusive of children from all traditions and backgrounds, and the majority of parents highlighted the building of relationships in a shared society and learning about other cultures as very positive.

Sixty per cent of parents responding to the survey said that their child had taken part in cross-community programmes in their school or local community, but 19% said that they were not aware of what their children had participated in. Examples of good practice range from taking part in sporting activities to cultural events organised by local councils. Parents said that they were not always involved in these programmes but that they would like to be and that there was no consistency in the information given out by schools about what was happening.

Moving forward, parents considered the following as priorities and actions that would improve sharing and integration. Parental involvement is highlighted as important. Parents want to be included in some of the shared programmes, where appropriate, and want more information to be made available to them via schools. Also, parents want to be better informed to make better choices for their children, and they want to be engaged on the issues of what is happening in Northern Ireland in shared and integrated education. Again, some parents said that religious education or religious background should not be the central issue to sharing education but that providing quality education for all pupils was the key to moving forward.

Parents also said that the purpose and benefits of shared education need to be defined. They thought that there should be more agreement, more teaching and more learning for pupils on cultural identity and an agreement on flags and emblems — whether these are to be removed from schools. Some parents saw that as an opportunity to open up a discussion that would help to improve relationships. They also wanted more teaching on respect and tolerance and on how they could be promoted. They mentioned more places being available in integrated schools and better use of funding, whether in shared or integrated education. Finally, parents said that they would like an agreement and commitment from the Northern Ireland Assembly to integrating or sharing schools by a certain date.

Ms Magee: The reports in 2012 and 2014 do not claim to reflect the views of all parents in Northern Ireland. They are there as a snapshot of the views that we collected. As Nicola said, there are still some grey areas around the definition, and, in both consultations, parents quite clearly outlined the importance of parents being involved in this process.

I found it astounding that, in the recent consultation that Nicola carried out, 19% of parents were not sure whether their children had been involved in shared education initiatives. Where is the communication with the school? Parents really wanted us to promote better communication. Parents appreciated being involved in the consultations and are keen to hear any feedback that the inquiry will be able to provide on shared and integrated education moving forward. Thank you for allowing us the opportunity to come today.

The Chairperson (Miss M McIlveen): Thank you very much. You have covered the concerns that I had when I saw the limited number of respondents. The responses are strongly weighted towards integrated, but that seems to be because many have experience of that. It comes across very clearly that there is an issue with definition.

When you normally carry out this type of engagement with parents, do you find that there is a barrier around certain topics? Is it usually quite straightforward to have a conversation with parents, or is education a particularly difficult topic?

Ms Magee: We find that it is quite easy to approach parents with any subject. The difference is around the issue, how sensitive it is and whether we use a group of parents we have worked with in the past. If the parents' group is attached to a school, for example, we know that it has relationships and support. We know that once we step out of the room there will be somebody supporting it. If the issue is particularly sensitive and we open it up to parents in general, that makes it quite difficult for us to follow up with support and ensure that they are supported through the whole process.

We have not discovered too many issues with getting parents involved in discussions around education; they are actually really keen to do so. We are working with some voluntary and community groups at the moment, as well as representatives from the education and library boards and the Education and Training Inspectorate, to look at how parental participation in schools, and in education in general, can be moved forward. Parents want to be involved in their children's education. We know that education does not stop at the school gates. Parents want to have those messages reinforced; but there is lack of communication between schools and parents. We are trying to work with the Departments and the education and library boards on how we can push that forward.

The Chairperson (Miss M McIlveen): So, there really is not a clear mechanism for you to have outreach to parents.

Ms Magee: As I said, over 1,800 members and organisations are attached to our membership forum. It depends on the issue. We can call on parents from our forum to participate in consultations. The online exercise is something that we have only recently started to explore. We have found that we are getting contact from more parents through online surveys. For example, in a recent consultation, we found that parents were on their laptops or smartphones at 9.00 pm filling out questionnaires, because they were interested in doing so. I would not necessarily be interested in sitting at home at 9.00 pm answering a questionnaire on my smartphone, but parents feel so passionate about education that they want to contribute to it.

We have a broad range of methods for encouraging parents to participate and consult, whether it be the focus group method or through an online consultation. Sometimes, we work through other community and voluntary organisations that are better placed to carry out consultations. We just bring in a facilitator, as they have a ready-made group of parents. We have connections to different community and voluntary groups that work with parents of children with disabilities, for example. We can support the consultation delivery with that group.

The Chairperson (Miss M McIlveen): You said that there were parents who exited the process because they felt that it was perhaps leading to the erosion of grammar schools, and so on. There were also those who participated but felt that it was a diversion from integrated education. Clearly, if we had an definition of sharing, perhaps that might break this down and dispel some of the concerns. From the work you have done, is there a recommendation you could bring to the Committee as to how we can better engage with parents?

Ms McKeown: Clare-Anne talked about schools being better engaged. We have some very good practice of schools engaging very clearly with parents and involving them. Parents are very positive, on the whole, about shared education, whether it is integrated or about sharing activities. No one said that they did not want their child to participate, although I am sure that had we asked every single parent in Northern Ireland we would maybe get a broader range of views. Information from schools is key to this. Some are very good at involving parents by building relationships with them and inviting them to showcase events or be part of shared education programmes.

However, some schools are still not engaging with parents and are not making that information available, and parents are saying that they want to know. No one has said that they have an objection to that, but if schools are their first port of call, then that is how they want to find out about what is going on. They may not have time to sit down, or they might not be interested in looking at the Northern Ireland Assembly website or use other ways. Certainly, schools seem to be the key to where you will get to all parents.

Ms Magee: As I said, we are trying to work on promoting parental engagement in education in a wide variety of ways. One thing we have looked into quite a lot is parent councils in schools. I know that Mrs Lewsley-Mooney talked about school councils with children from each age group, which is fantastic. However, again, it is about trying to acknowledge that parents are actually involved in their children's education. They are the primary educators of their children from when they are born; so, it is about trying to get them involved in the education system as well. We have done a lot of research on the development of parent councils for schools. We recently signed up to the European Parents Association. Its only key issue is to look at engaging parents in their children's education. So, we are just starting the process of exploring how best parents and schools can do that.

The Chairperson (Miss M McIlveen): That is useful and should be explored, but there are difficulties in getting parents involved in parent-teacher associations. I know of schools that are finding it very difficult to get parent representatives on boards of governors. While this is laudable and would be useful to have, there is a challenge there. We need to look at the barriers to parents' participation.

Ms McKeown: We have looked at other models. We have been working with the Parents Council in Dublin, and it has had no problems getting a great number of parents on board. Again, it is about the relationships built in schools. We understand that parents are very busy people and do not always have time. However, I am a former teacher and I used to get very frustrated when I sent notes home in schoolbags and they were still there a week later. We would talk a lot about it in schools, and people would say "Oh, those hard-to-reach parents are just not interested." It is about how schools engage with those parents and what the relationships are like. There are no parents who are hard to reach. They may be disinterested, but it is about schools seeing themselves as being part of the community and it not just being a case of them and us.

Mr McCausland: Picking up on the Chair's point, I am trying to understand why two thirds of the parents who responded to the survey had children attending an integrated school. Obviously, that is not reflective of the wider community. Why do you think that you got such an unrepresentative response?

Ms Magee: It is interesting, because we did not target parents with children involved in integrated education. We put it through all our community and voluntary group networks and all the parents that we knew of from our database. A wide variety of schools were contacted, and they passed it on to their parents. It seems to be quite an emotive issue for parents involved in integrated or shared education initiatives. That is why they felt so passionate to get involved. It is certainly not a true reflection of the numbers in integrated education in Northern Ireland, but it is obvious that some passion has been ignited and that parents who have children involved in that sector feel very strongly about it.

Mr McCausland: There were two points that struck me. The issues they raised are perfectly legitimate and are issues that others may well raise. Their conclusions may be different, but the issues will probably be the same. I am just trying to get some understanding of this. How many people were reached by the survey potentially?

Ms Magee: It is hard to capture that, because we did it mainly through social media and our forum. We can guarantee that 1,800 individual parents and family organisations got it through our forum. On social media, the reach could have been anything up to 10,000. However, we do not have exact figures.

Mr McCausland: Yet the number that actually responded was hugely representative of the integrated sector.

Mr Rogers: Thank you very much for your insight. On the definition of shared education, do you believe that there should be a stronger emphasis on the whole idea of promoting good relations, tolerance, respect and mutual understanding?

Ms Magee: Yes, definitely. Parents would certainly like to see a clear definition with a purpose and set outcomes, and targets and milestones to achieve those. I suppose it comes down to the quality of shared education. What we actually mean by shared education could be a joint trip to the cinema — actually, maybe that is not the best example. We mean a high quality project. It is about building relationships and developing tolerance, respecting difference and trying to move things forward a little bit. Parents are looking for a definition that says, "This is what shared education is. These are the initiatives that your child is involved in. This is how you can help promote the message that we are trying to get across."

Ms McKeown: Parents just want to be informed about what is going on. They have commented that, for example, a note goes home in the schoolbag saying, "Your school is joining up with a school down the road next week." I have seen that happen, but it does not cut it for parents any more. Parents, like pupils, want to know why the school is joining with another school. Parents are not against it, largely, but they want to know what is going on, the purpose behind it, and the benefits of sharing in education.

Mr Rogers: You also mentioned that we need to have more schools involved in the real sharing of education. Do you believe that a shared education premium in funding would help to facilitate that?

Ms Magee: In the 2012 report, parents said that they would prefer that there were some sort of accountability and closer monitoring of schools that were receiving funding for shared education initiatives. Some schools were treating it as just a joint trip while others were doing a lot more work on it. However, parents did not comment on that specifically. They were not asked that specific question, so I cannot give an honest answer to that point.

Ms McKeown: Parents made exactly the same comments in the 2014 report.

Mr Hazzard: Apologies that I missed the very start of your presentation. I just want to know a couple of things. Did you provide a definition of shared and integrated education to the adults who were filling in the survey?

Ms McKeown: We toyed with the idea of providing that. There was a lot of discussion around whether there is a definition and whether we could find one. Once we discussed it, we decided that, for the benefit of this, we would not go with any definition. We were not clear where the definition was coming from, so we did not want to spoil it. Sometimes providing things to parents that give them ideas can spoil the results. We wanted them to come up with what they understood about those terms. That is why there was a wide variety of responses. They seemed to be clearer about integrated education. I do not know whether that is because the integrated sector has been around a lot longer and there has been more talk about it. However, they were very similar.

Mr Hazzard: You went on, though, to ask them very specific questions about the advantages and disadvantages of shared education. Do you not think that it is slightly unfair to ask a parent what the advantages and disadvantages of shared education are when they may not know what shared education is?

Ms McKeown: We wanted to see what their understanding was, first of all. As I said, we were not sure of where that shared education definition was coming from. We did not want to approach it saying, "We have pulled it from here, but it may not be correct".

Ms Magee: We have the raw data and can certainly share that with the Committee. We thought that not giving an initial definition might actually help get a definition and encourage some discussion.

Mr Hazzard: I cannot help thinking, given that you went on to ask very specific questions, that you could have even given examples of what shared education is, so that when people were asked about advantages and disadvantages they could have used those examples. That is why I am not surprised to find that there is such confusion among parents.

Ms Magee: That is one of the difficulties of doing online consultation, I have to say. In the focus groups in the 2012 work, when parents did not know what shared education was, other parents started giving examples and then the parents who had not known were saying, "Oh, yes". The benefit of having focus groups is that parents can bounce ideas off one another. The difficulty with the online consultation is that they do not have the mechanism to do that, so that is a flaw. One of the issues we had with this consultation was the number of questions allowed per consultation. It was already a detailed consultation survey. We have a bit of knowledge on the subject, and it was taking us 15 minutes to complete it. So, we are aware that a parent would take a little bit longer to read through it all.

Mr Hazzard: You mentioned that a particular parent group from the grammar sector had an issue. Can you expand on that? Was that one person who responded, or was it a group of parents who dropped out because they felt that shared education was about comprehensivising the education system? Again, I cannot help thinking that if a definition of shared education had been given at the outset —

Ms Magee: No, this one was in 2012, when a definition of shared education was given, based on the ministerial advisory group's definition. Even with that, they felt that we were trying to, as you say, "comprehensivise" the education system.

Mr Hazzard: OK; no problem.

Ms McKeown: In the 2014 report, there is still the perception that standards are lower in integrated schools. I think that parents just want to be informed about the benefits. In answer to the question of whether you would send your child to, say, an integrated school, some said that they would not do so because a grammar education is better.

Mr Hazzard: So, despite the fact that two thirds of the respondents were from integrated schools, there was still the perception that standards in integrated schools were not as good.

Ms McKeown: By some.

Mr Hazzard: How many?

Ms McKeown: Between 10 and 20 respondents.

Mr Hazzard: I saw the 2012 survey, which was based on 50 people. I would not read too much into that survey because of the sheer lack of numbers in it.

Finally, most respondents felt that religion should be catered for outside school. Again, I cannot get away from the fact that two thirds of the respondents were from integrated schools, but, again, integrated education deals with religion inside school. Not once in any of our education systems is there a voice talking about leaving religion outside schools. Where does that figure come from? How many people were surveyed?

Ms Magee: I will just pick up on that, Nicola, before you do.

One of the issues is whether parents are fully aware of what sending their child to an integrated school involves. I am not saying that they make that decision lightly, but do they know whether to ask that question? For some, the perception is that an integrated school is a completely neutral venue and does not do anything like that. Others have a bit more information and know a bit more about what it entails.

The religious education issue gained mixed responses from parents. Even some of those who sent their children to integrated schools felt that religion should not be taught in the school at all, and some felt that it should be taught. They felt that the fact that there are different religions should be addressed and should not just be ignored. I think that is where the numbers were mixed. Even though the parents sent their children to an integrated education school, their views are still different.

Mr Hazzard: For me, on the whole, the real analysis or answer out of this is the confusion around the definition of shared and integrated education. Given that the survey did not provide a definition, I do not know how much we can read into the findings other than the fact that there is no clear blue water around definitions. It is a missed opportunity.

Ms Magee: We did this just to get a bit of snapshot, to be honest with you. It was not meant to be a heavily researched social-science-type piece of work. If nothing else comes out of what we have done, it will be just to say that there needs to be a clearer definition. If that is the key finding that we can provide for you today, then that is the key finding.

Ms McKeown: Also that parents are interested.

Ms Magee: Parents want to be involved in it.

Mr Hazzard: I noticed that only six parents from the Fermanagh area responded. Perhaps that is our area of strongest shared education examples. I wonder whether we would have had different feedback from there. That is just a thought.

Mr Newton: I thank Ms McKeown and Ms Magee for coming to the Committee. Forgive me if I missed it when you were summarising the findings, but on page 4 of your 2014 report, under the area, "Ways forward to improve Shared/Integrated Education", you refer to parents' suggestion that all teacher training degrees should be joint. How strong was that feeling among parents?

Ms McKeown: I do not have numbers exactly, because, with a lot of the questions, it was a matter of sitting down and counting how many responses there were. However, there was a strong feeling from parents that, if we are to move forward and are encouraging children to share, that should come at all levels in society and that teachers should be modelling this as well as parents. A small grouping of parents was in favour of having a joint campus. It was not something that was specifically asked, but parents did refer to it.

Ms Magee: We can go back and have a look at that and get numbers for you if that is helpful.

Ms McKeown: We can count them and send them to you.

Mr Newton: You used the word "strong", but the report says that it was suggested as opposed to there being any strength behind the proposal. Obviously, that is more in the area of the Department for Employment and Learning. I would be interested to know about that.

Ms McKeown: I will get back to you on that one.

The Chairperson (Miss M McIlveen): Thank you for your time and for the work that you have put into this. I think it has been very useful.