Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): I welcome Arthur Scott, director of culture; David Carson, director of finance and corporate services; and Fergus Devitt, director of sports, museums and recreation. I invite you to make the opening statement.

Mr David Carson (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure): Thank you very much, Chairman, and thank you for the opportunity to address the Committee on the draft Budget for 2015-16. Our meetings with the Committee are a key part of the consultation phase on the draft Budget, and you will know that our initial consultation document is available on the Department's website.

I would like to begin with a brief outline of where we are at the moment on the draft Budget and what we expect to do over the remainder of the consultation period. Following that, we are happy to take questions from members.

I want to look first at the Department's budget allocation on resource. The draft savings allocation against DCAL is for a 10% cut. As the consultation document recognises, that level of reduction will present very serious delivery challenges across the whole DCAL family. In the initial allocation of that cut in the Department it has been decided that a priority is to ensure that all existing libraries should remain open. Libraries NI has estimated that the largest cut that it could accommodate while keeping libraries open is 7·5%. That means that the cut required in other areas will be a reduction of 11·2% so that we can deliver the overall required saving of 10%.

We are now working on how those savings can be delivered in 2015-16 while minimising the impact on front-line services. All arm's-length bodies (ALBs) and areas of business in the Department have been asked to prepare savings delivery plans setting out their proposals for delivering the required cuts. We are currently validating those plans to ensure that they are achievable, that underlying assumptions are realistic, that the scope for efficiency savings has been maximised and that any detrimental impacts on front-line services have been minimised as far as possible.

However, given that we are facing unprecedented cuts to budgets, it is inevitable that front-line services will suffer, and the consultation document outlines some of the likely impacts at a high level. They include grant programmes delivered by the Arts Council, Sport NI and the Department itself. Those will be cut. Despite a measure of protection, library users will see reductions in opening hours and in the purchase of fresh book stock. In museums, opening hours will also reduce and galleries are likely to close. Events and exhibitions will fall in number and there may be seasonal closure of facilities.

As well as affecting services to the public, the cuts will also require a reduction in the pay bill across the DCAL family. Payroll is the largest cost in the Department, libraries and National Museums, and this level of budget cut simply cannot be delivered without significantly reducing the number of people employed. This is likely to be the case across many other Departments. Indeed, the whole subject has been the focus of much media interest recently.

The Executive are formulating a workforce restructuring plan that will include consideration of recruitment freezes, depression of existing vacancies, pay restraint and a voluntary exit scheme.

The DCAL family cannot deliver its savings without reducing staff numbers through an exit scheme, and, at the moment, we are working to quantify, at a high level, the number of staff who might be involved. However, to identify specific posts that may be surplus going forward, it will be necessary to review objectives, outcomes and processes.

We will then need to develop a migration plan to take us from where we are now to where we want to be. That will be a challenging piece of work, particularly in view of the compressed timescales involved.

At this early point, given that work has just begun in that area and because of the natural sensitivities around it, I do not wish to offer an estimate of the size of the staff reduction that might be required. However, it is important to point out that relying on staff reductions to deliver a significant portion of the total savings requirement introduces a risk around achievability, particularly in light of the tight timescales involved, and we intend to explore that further as we move through the consultation period.

On resource, I would like to clarify the position of the North/South bodies in the process. Budgets for the Language Body and Waterways Ireland are decided by the North/South Ministerial Council and so lie outside the draft Budget. At this point in time, the business plans have not yet been agreed for the organisations from which the budgets are derived for the calendar years 2015 and 2016. However, any reduction in the required savings will impose further pressures on the Department's budget.

I will turn finally to the capital position. The draft allocation for 2015-16 is £54·1 million. We currently estimate a non-stadiums requirement of around £8 million to cover committed spend and provide a baseline allocation to some ALBs. Among other things, it will cover sports facilities at Daisyfield to continue the City of Culture legacy work; a boxing programme to refurbish clubs and buy new equipment; an allocation to continue the implementation of the sports strategy; an allocation to the sports governing bodies to continue facilities upgrading; the completion of Moira library; and the completion of work at Ardoyne youth club.

Assuming an imminent positive outcome to the Casement judicial review, we estimate that, in 2015-16, the total stadiums requirement will be £58·1 million. In addition, there may be a requirement for £1 million to support the start-up of the subregional stadium programme. In total, based on those estimates, there is a shortfall of around £13 million for next year. That has already been brought to the attention of DFP and will be highlighted at the bilateral meeting with the Finance Minister, which is scheduled for the start of next month.

That completes my summary of the current position. We are now happy to invite questions and comments.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): I just remind those who came in a few minutes later that we are restricting ourselves to one question each in a first round, then we will go around again if need be and there is time before we finish. Obviously, oral questions are at 2.00 pm.

We have had a number of questions in the Committee regarding the Líofa project. What inescapable commitments are there moving into 2015-16 in regard to that?

Mr Carson: Maybe Arthur can provide that information.

Mr Arthur Scott (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure): I think a number are inescapable, in relation to the staffing costs, the Líofa website, the maintenance costs and the contract for the provision of the —

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): How long is the contract for?

Mr Scott: It is an annual contract, which is renewable.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): So, it would not have to be renewed.

Mr Scott: It would be an option not to renew it.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): So it is not inescapable in that regard.

Mr Scott: In the sense that the campaign runs until 2015, I assume that it will continue to be required. It is not strictly, in the sense that you are asking —

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): It is either inescapable or it is not, and clearly it is not. It is an option, a wish list, a desire or an aspiration, but it is not inescapable. Is that correct?

Mr Scott: In terms of the Department's forward work plan to achieve the aims of the Líofa initiative, it will be required.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): But that is not how you define "inescapable".

Mr Scott: It is not contractually inescapable.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): So it is not inescapable; you accept that.

Mr Scott: It could be terminated.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Yes, it could be determined, so it is not inescapable. It took us a while to get there, Arthur, but we got there in the end. Who is next for a question? Basil.

Mr B McCrea: Will you just run me through the shortfall in the capital investments that you mentioned? It seems to be a very large deficit.

Mr Carson: As I said, there are a number of schemes outside the stadia programme that we hope to take forward next year, and we have some tails of existing schemes. In total, that amounts to around £8 million. In addition to that, we have the projected amount for the regional stadia and a further £1 million for the subregional stadia. When you add all of those together, it is £13 million more than the allocation in the draft budget.

Mr B McCrea: The issue was always that the capital expenditure for the current financial year is unlikely to be drawn down. Is there any possibility, if Casement does get a positive outlook, that you will get an automatic transfer on that?

Mr Carson: The amounts against the programme for the regional stadia are ring-fenced and have to be given back to the centre. We do not have any control over the decisions about how that money is allocated. We have certainly been keeping DFP informed of the position on the regional stadia and the likelihood that money will be handed back. Our expectation of those discussions is that there will be sympathetic treatment of the funding requirements for the future.

Mr B McCrea: Finally — everybody wants to have a chance — the issue on —

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Sorry, Basil. We will move on. We will come back in due course.

Mr Hilditch: David, you referred to the DCAL family and the different components of it. Financial savings plans are being restructured at the moment through the consultation period. When will that be completed, and will the Committee get sight of it before it is finalised?

Mr Carson: The process is being worked through at the moment. We have received initial savings proposals from all the ALBs, and we are currently scrutinising them. We are looking at the assumptions that underpin them and at how the ALBs are proposing to deliver the savings. Cuts of that magnitude are unprecedented for the ALBs. I envisage that, in developing their plans, there will be quite a bit of dialogue between us and them so that we can be comfortable with how they plan to proceed.

I would not like, at this stage, to be definitive about when that process will come to an end. I certainly appreciate that, in order to inform the consultation process, the public need to know the sorts of things that are likely to happen. That is why the Department has been keen to get something out quickly, albeit at a high level. As I said, we are working through the more granular detail at the moment. I would not, at this stage, be able to be definitive about when that process will come to an end.

Mr Hilditch: Will the Committee get to scrutinise it again, or is that —

Mr Carson: We want to update the Committee as we work through that process. I am aware that there is a further session with the Committee on 11 December. I am happy to provide an update at that time.

Mr Cree: What scope is there for double funding between the Department and its arm's-length bodies? What sort of system is there to ensure that that does not happen, or is it acceptable that it does?

Mr Carson: I do not think that it happens. The ALBs have a specific remit. You are talking about further funding to third parties. Generally, those funding decisions are made by the arm's-length body. If the Department were funding a third party from its own account, it would ensure that there was no funding already in the system, or, if there was, that that had been taken into account when stipulating the amount to go.

Mr Cree: Take, for example, the Londonderry City of Culture legacy project. There is quite a sum in the departmental budget for that, but I notice that there was £900,000 in the Arts Council budget for what appears to be some sort of agreement on a 50:50 basis with the city council.

Mr Carson: I am not aware of that specific reason. Arthur, is that something that you could —

Mr Scott: It is a direct funding award for the legacy made by the Arts Council to the City of Culture. As David outlined, the Department, in providing the additional assistance, would take account of and be aware of those. The whole City of Culture event was delivered using a strategic cocktail of funding, as the legacy has been. There are steps in place to liaise with our arm's-length bodies to ensure that the double funding you suggest is avoided. There is also the government funding database, which keeps a record of all funding made available to third parties. It provides a fraud detection measure and a means of control so that, if the checks and processes in place are not followed, those can be picked up and investigated afterwards.

Mr Cree: I am not sure that you have answered the question. In this specific case — it is the only one I have looked at — would that come out of the original departmental budget for the legacy project, or would it come out of the Arts Council award?

Mr Scott: The funding that the Arts Council made would have been allocated to it by the Department, so it comes from Arts Council's funds.

Mr Humphrey: Going back to Líofa, Arthur, you talked about the pressures of staffing costs and maintenance and so on. Why did the Department keep Líofa in the Department and not pass it on to the arm's-length body that has responsibly for promoting the Irish language?

Mr Scott: When the Department was considering the Líofa initiative, Foras na Gaeilge was asked whether it could deliver it. Because of a staffing shortage at that time, it was not able to respond to the Department's request, which is why the Department took it forward.

Mr Humphrey: When was that?

Mr Scott: The Líofa campaign started in 2011-12.

Mr Humphrey: So, since 2011-12, Foras na Gaeilge has not been in a position to take this on because it has not been fit for purpose. Is that really the position?

Mr Scott: Foras na Gaeilge was unable to take it on because it indicated that it did not have sufficient staff resources to dedicate to the Líofa initiative.

Mr Humphrey: The point that I am making is that that is the constituted body that was agreed under the Belfast Agreement to promote the Irish language. Even though it indicated that to the Department, the Department still retained the project, which is about promoting the Irish language.

Mr Scott: Yes.

Mr Humphrey: So, in actual fact, that completely undermines Foras na Gaeilge.

Mr Scott: I would not agree that it undermines Foras na Gaeilge; it complements the work that Foras na Gaeilge is doing to support the development of the Irish language across the island.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): We will come back to that again on another occasion and maybe get Foras na Gaeilge to come with you. We will then maybe get to the bottom of it.

The Committee Clerk: We have them scheduled for January, Chair.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): They are coming together in January. That is good.

Mrs McKevitt: The saving measures in the Department will include the reconfiguration of the back-office staff and the minimisation of discretionary overhead costs etc, and there will be a review of grant allocations. Can you explain a wee bit more about who and what will be affected by that?

Mr Carson: At this stage, it is very early, and we are looking at initial proposals. I have to stress that. However, the picture for 2015-16 is that the Department has around £3 million in its baseline for grant allocation, and the rest of its budget, which is around £20 million in total, is taken up with payroll and overhead costs. We are looking at the contribution that each area can offer up to the savings requirement. In 2015-16, we have a particular issue with the timing of a staff exit scheme. We are looking at the current profile of grant allocations and the impacts that there would be on the recipients if those were reduced. We are not yet at the stage where we have completed that assessment, but the work is under way. At this stage, I do not want to go into detail about the way that that will eventually play out.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Cathal Ó hOisín is coming back, so we will come to him in due course.

Why is the Department of Education not covering the cost of the funding for Ardoyne youth club?

Mr Fergus Devitt (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure): Chair, that relates specifically to boxing activity in Ardoyne youth club, so the Department is involved with that under its sports remit.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Is that to refurbish the building?

Mr Devitt: Yes. It has issues with its premises, and it is seeking to either refurbish its existing premises or potentially move. That is my understanding of it, but I can certainly get more detail on it.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Are there any other incidences of sports activity taking place in youth clubs, which happens quite regularly, getting funding from DCAL?

Mr Devitt: I do not know the full detail off the top of my head, but my understanding is that the funding that is given out, which is primarily through Sport NI, goes directly to sports clubs rather than to youth clubs.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): This subverts that principle.

Mr Devitt: I think that the issue is that Ardoyne youth club is potentially also known as Ardoyne boxing club. In the Department, we refer to it as Ardoyne boxing club.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): I have always known it as Ardoyne youth club, because that is what it used to say over the door. So, is the position that any sports club that uses a youth club can now apply directly to the Department, not through Sport NI?

Mr Devitt: No, this is through Sport NI.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Just to get it clear, Sport NI will fund physical works to a youth club that accommodates a sports club.

Mr Devitt: That is not necessarily the case. Sport NI goes through a very rigorous process to determine whether capital investment or maintenance or whatever is actually needed. It is going through a programme of work at the moment with all the councils. It is called a facilities strategy, and it aims to map exactly what sports facilities are in place and in what locations. That will ultimately influence and determine the funding decisions that will be made in the future because, for example, you could have a range of sports bodies applying for 3G pitches in very close proximity to each other, and that clearly would not be a very good use of investment. Sport NI is working with us and primarily the councils to make sure that whatever investment goes into sporting activities is delivering new and improved facilities, rather than replicating them.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): That particular bit of funding to Ardoyne youth club for the boxing element is part of a funding stream that anybody could have applied to.

Mr Devitt: It is specifically for boxing.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Does that mean that it has started handing out the boxing money already?

Mr Devitt: Yes, some of that boxing money has gone out, and there have been improvements to some boxing facilities already.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Is that as part of this package of boxing money?

Mr Devitt: Yes.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): OK. Thank you for giving us an update on that.

Mr Humphrey: Why are you singling out Ardoyne in the presentation?

Mr Devitt: I think that it is because there is a contractual commitment to take forward some work. That is why the pressure, which David referred to, is already in our system. It is a bit like Moira library, which is in one of my other areas of responsibility. Moira library has been started this year, but it will require funding next year to complete it. So, we know that that is contributing to a pressure.

Mr B McCrea: The Department's administration costs have risen from £6·7 million to £7·3 million, which is an increase of about 9%. What percentage of the Department's current expenditure is on staff costs?

Mr Scott: It is about 50%.

Mr B McCrea: Are you planning a straight 11% cut in departmental expenditure to be taken out of costs?

Mr Scott: That is our starting point. We will be testing that figure as we work through our plans. Inevitably, given that payroll accounts for such a large proportion, I think that we will need to deliver significant staff savings to achieve our overall budget reduction.

Mr B McCrea: Can you say that you will be prioritising staff reductions against front-line services?

Mr Scott: We will certainly be focusing on the area of staff reduction. It is simplistic to think that, by reducing staff, we will be safeguarding front-line services, because, very often by reducing staff there will be a direct knock-on impact on front-line services. We will test the nature of those impacts as we work through our plans.

Mr Hilditch: I want to return briefly to boxing. The Minister allocated money to boxing, and the Committee was very supportive of that work. Was the whole package for boxing not ring-fenced?

Mr Scott: It was, yes. A number of works have already started to be delivered. Some of it is quite small-scale, such as for equipment like pads, gloves and that type of thing, and some of it is for maintenance.

Mr Hilditch: So, is there still some money left in that fund to be bid for?

Mr Scott: I do not know the exact amounts, but maybe I could come back with the detail.

Mr Hilditch: Please do, because that would help.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): We have another meeting on Thursday, at which we will be coming back to some of these issues. If it were possible, it would be helpful to have information on the total package for boxing, what has been allocated so far, what other applications are in, and how much the demand exceeds supply, if it does, and so on.

Mr Scott: If we came back even with bullet points for Thursday, would that be —

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): All we need is bullet points or lines with a name and a figure against them. We do not need anything more detailed than that. That is great.

Mr Cree: Gentlemen, I would like to refer to the capital budget. As you are probably aware, over £35 million in financial transactions capital (FTC) is unallocated in the current year. The most that we can keep is 10%, so we are going to be sending back over £30 million. I notice that in your capital budget you have sought no FTC allocation for next year. Why is that?

Mr Carson: We have not been able to identify a scheme or partner that would fulfil the conditions of financial transactions capital. Generally speaking, the bodies that we deal with would not be in a position to pay back a loan of that nature. That is a major stumbling block in being able to utilise the scheme. I think that that is the principle reason why we had difficulty taking advantage of that scheme in the sector.

Mr Cree: Has any work been done on identifying likely clients and, in fact, how it can be switched round so that the private sector can avail itself of this very attractive capital?

Mr Carson: Certainly, an appraisal has been undertaken. We remain open to proposals coming forward. However, as I say, we have not been able to identify any suitable schemes at this stage.

Mr Cree: Have you actually gone out and looked and spoken to —

Mr Carson: Yes. An appraisal has been undertaken of the scope for utilising the scheme in this area.

Mr Cree: Would it be possible to see that?

Mr Carson: It was fairly informal. I am not sure to what extent there is a formal report, but I can certainly —

Mr Cree: It would be better than nothing. Thank you.

Mr Humphrey: The last time that you guys were in we asked for an update on Casement Park. Where does the court case and legal action on that sit now? When will work on the stadium actually commence? Do we know yet?

Mr Carson: We are still waiting a judgement and the outcome of the judicial review. We hope that that will be forthcoming imminently. We are working on the assumption that construction work on Casement Park can commence in January 2015. That is the basis on which our financial projections are pulled together.

Mr Humphrey: If that does not happen, David, can we ensure, as much as is possible, that a bid can be made to the centre for that money to be used for subregional stadia so that it is not lost to football, given the pressures that exist for subregional stadia and some of the grounds across Northern Ireland? We have heard from the Milk Cup people about the pressures on the facilities in Coleraine, and there are obviously others such as Taylors Avenue in Carrick, which, according to some people, is a considerable football hub.

Mr Carson: We are talking to DFP about the position of the subregional stadia. We have a strategic outline case, and the next stage in the process is for an outline business case to be developed. How that will be done and the process through which it will be worked is actively being discussed. The £1 million that I alluded to would relate to that work and to being able to take it forward next year.

Mrs McKevitt: Asset-related costs to the Department are, I suppose, a huge amount. You spoke about contractual issues with the boxing and how you have to go back into next year's budget to deliver. Is that the same for libraries that need a lot of maintenance? I am thinking of the likes of Castlewellan library, which needs a good bit of maintenance.

Mr Devitt: Not necessarily. It depends on the nature of the work. The Moira library is a capital build. It is almost a complete new build. Maintenance is more an in-year issue than one that would go over two years. A certain amount of the Libraries NI budget each year is given over to that type of maintenance and improvement activity anyway, so there is budget available for it.

The question will be how much Libraries NI wants to spend on maintenance, health and safety and other such issues. It will then make a judgement on the type of investment it wants to make out of the overall amount that is available to it.

Mrs McKevitt: Is that money being reduced?

Mr Devitt: Those are decisions for Libraries NI. The Libraries NI budget is being reduced, but within that, it will have to decide how it allocates whatever money it has left. That is because it clearly has significant staff costs and other priorities to meet. With all our arm's-length bodies, those are decisions that they, in the first instance, will be taking.

Mr Ó hOisín: Apologies, gentlemen, for missing most of your presentation. You mentioned, David, the Daisyfield project in the context of the City of Culture legacy funding. Are other projects that you are aware of included in that remit?

Mr Carson: I would need to check my list, but I believe that there are other elements for the City of Culture in the capital programme for next year. I am just not able to list the specific ones, but I am happy to provide a list, if that would be helpful.

Mr Ó hOisín: OK, thank you.

Mr B McCrea: If I could just go back to the impact of staff reductions. Have you done any work on the cost of making staff reductions?

Mr Carson: At a very high level, yes. We have been working throughout on the assumption that a central fund will be available to fund those costs.

Mr B McCrea: Could you give us some idea of the quantum — I know it is at a high level — that you think you will have to apply to the centre for?

Mr Carson: We are still talking to DFP about what those figures might be. At this stage, it depends on what assumptions you employ and on the terms of the scheme that would be available for voluntary exits. It could be quite a significant range.

Mr B McCrea: Give us a range, then.

Mr Carson: An individual would be entitled to a maximum of 21 months' salary under the voluntary exit scheme. As I understand it, as one approaches retirement age, that entitlement will taper off, depending on the age of the staff member. So, it really depends on the personal circumstances of those who would want to avail themselves of the scheme.

Mr B McCrea: For budgeting purposes, rather than for individuals, could you give a figure that you think would be advisable to talk to DFP about so that provision could be made?

Mr Carson: We could calculate a figure, but I would not have it off the top of my head. We could provide that to you, if that would be helpful.

Mr B McCrea: That would be useful. If 50% of your budget goes on staff and you have to make 11·2% cuts, you must have some idea of the costs that you will have. I suspect that it will cost you more in the current year to make the redundancies than the savings you will make.

Mr Carson: We have made the assumption that we will be able to fund those costs from the central fund. There is £100 million available in that fund.

Mr B McCrea: We understand that there is a central pot, but that affects us all. I want to know the quantum of how much you are likely to be asking for. I will not hold you to it, but approximately how much will DCAL be asking DFP to take out of that £100 million pot?

Mr Carson: I could come up with a figure, but, as I said, I do not have that in front of me. It would be very much a first-stage estimate, but we can provide that if it would be helpful.

Mr Hilditch: Looking at the table, I see that the funding of Waterways Ireland and languages is dictated by the North/South agreement, so there is probably not a lot there. We previously raised the issue of Waterways Ireland's building in Enniskillen: its size, how much it costs and how much of it appears to be vacant. There must be people who work there who do not see one another for weeks on end. Do you have any influence over how things could be better managed on that front?

Mr Carson: Arthur might like to comment on that point.

Mr Scott: The Committee will be aware that the two Finance Ministers agree a level of efficiencies that are to be driven by the North/South bodies. Waterways Ireland and the language body are delivering on those requirements. Waterways Ireland has made its building available for community uses and other uses. Its staff are engineering staff, and they have a very large navigation. There are occasions when there are people out of the office, but there have been other occasions when I have been there when offices are filled. Like the rest of the public sector, it is required to deliver efficiency savings.

Mr Hilditch: That seemed to be out of sync with the operation that takes place. It was explained to us why people are out of the office and on the waterways. I just wonder whether you have any influence over how it could be better used and maybe create some further income for the Department.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Is there an estimate for the value of the potential income from unused office space in that building? That would give us a sense of a lost opportunity. What is the rental value of the vacant space there that is unused?

Mr Carson: I do not have an exact figure for that, Chair —

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Could we get that?

Mr Carson: — but it would obviously have been valued for rating purposes. The calculations you have asked for could be made. We will engage with Waterways Ireland and try to provide that information for the Committee.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): I will bring in Leslie Cree in a moment. I want to ask a question first.

There is £30 million in the change fund for reform-oriented projects that are innovative and that involve collaboration and so on. Has the Department considered any bids that it might make to the change fund?

Mr Carson: We are actively looking at that. We would be keen to avail ourselves of that fund or submit a bid to it. That has just arrived with us, and we are actively looking at it.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Is there a particular area in the Department that it would be relevant to?

Mr Carson: It could potentially be relevant across a number of the Department's areas. There may be work to be done on collaborative initiatives, for example, with the Department of Education, that could qualify for funding through the scheme. I am not sufficiently aware of the detail, but I can say that it is being actively looked at.

Mr Cree: You touched on assets. Are any of the Department's assets assisted by the reinvestment and reform initiative (RRI) fund?

Mr Carson: Is this what you referred to earlier, Mr Cree?

Mr Cree: No, this is something else. This is a different fund. It is one that government uses generally.

Mr Carson: I do not believe that they are, but we can confirm that point for you.

Mr Cree: It obviously links to asset management. As you know, the Department had the power to deal with that. That has now been transferred to the asset management unit. Will anything happen during 2015-16 that should interest us at this point in time?

Mr Carson: I do not believe so, but certainly, again, we will confirm that for you.

Mr Devitt: It might be worth saying that we are doing some work around shared services. We are looking at the issue among our arm's-length bodies to see what scope there might be for shared services. I know that it is not directly on assets, but it is looking to see what mechanisms there might be to better use shared services across arm's-length bodies and achieve some efficiencies there.

Mr Cree: As you know, Chair, the Finance Committee has been doing some work on flexible working. It ties into this whole thing. Thanks for that.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Are there portions of land or other assets that fall within the remit of the Department through an arm's-length body that might be realised now that the value of land is going up again?

Mr Carson: That is something that is being considered in the remit of the asset management plan. Certainly, I do not believe that there are significant issues or redundant holdings of land or buildings, but that is something that we will look at in the work on the savings reduction.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): What sort of timescale are you looking at for getting that work done?

Mr Carson: This is more or less immediate over the next few months.

Mr Humphrey: Gentlemen, a couple of weeks ago, we had the Irish Bowling Association in front of the Committee. Sport NI had given it £55,000 to develop that sport in Northern Ireland. I think that there are some 400 clubs and thousands of players, so £55,000 is not a lot of money. Nevertheless, the association was appreciative of it. Last week, I met the Northern Cricket Union, which, for the past three years, has not been given any money from Sport NI, albeit it has not asked for it. What is the Department doing to reach out to sports other than the main ones of football, Gaelic and rugby to ensure their development? Boxing was talked about earlier. Bowling is a sport in which we consistently perform well at the Commonwealth Games, for example, yet the money that is going into those clubs is very small and may even be described as derisory. Is there more that the Department could do through Sport NI to reach out to these sports and provide more equity of funding for those that are smaller in the sense that they do not attract huge crowds, but are large in terms of participation?

Mr Devitt: I know from direct contact with Sport NI that it is in the process of developing its corporate plan, which would take it from 2015 up to, I think, 2019. The issues that you raise are among those that it will address. It will be very focused on participation across a range of sports, not just a certain number of sports. It will also have a range of funding programmes to which organisations can bid for funding, whether it be for capital improvements, equipment, coaching or development.

Alongside that, clearly, Sport NI also has a focus on developing the elite end, taking people from participation right through performance into delivery of medals. That will be very clear in its corporate plan and strategy. I think that it is important, as you mentioned, that a range of sports have access to funds and funding. Sport NI is very aware of that and that participation can come in many forms and across a range of sports and even outdoor activities, such as walking and others, which then lead to a wide range of physical and mental health benefits.

Mrs McKevitt: Mr Devitt, you spoke earlier in reply to Mr Cree about shared services and how you are looking into that. Have there been any discussions with the Department of Education or DEL about the use of shared services and maybe funding the likes of schoolchildren to visit museums, the arts or opening up doors to increase the activity around assets that the Department already has for culture, arts and leisure?

Mr Devitt: That is a very important part of what we will be looking at; in fact, it is happening. As a Department, we work very closely with the likes of the Department of Education and the Department for Employment and Learning. We and DE have signed a service level agreement recently around a range of issues. Schoolchildren have free access to a range of sites in the DCAL family. There are a number of job clubs, for example, from the DEL perspective, that operate in our libraries. We work very closely with DARD on the rural provision in our libraries and what services there are there, and we also work in conjunction with DHSSPS on mental health services that are provided across libraries. That range of activities and cross-departmental working is happening, and I would imagine that there is scope for more.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Do those other Departments bring money to the table?

Mr Devitt: Sometimes, they do, yes. Sometimes, it is more about using the physical space and assets such as a library to allow other Departments or services to be run from them. I know, for example, that in Newcastle there is work being done with the Alzheimer's Society, Health in Mind and others like that. It is about maximising the use of the DCAL estate as well providing services across a range of functions.

Mrs McKevitt: Were there any discussions with the likes of DSD on using the assets of the estate for the hearing of appeals and so on, for example? Maybe libraries could be used instead of courthouses.

Mr Devitt: I am not aware of that specific one.

Mrs McKevitt: It may be an option to consider.

Mr Ó hOisín: I am at a disadvantage here because I missed much of the presentation, but is there any room for any savings around the admin costs? That accounts for 10% of the overall budget, is that right?

Mr Carson: I am not aware of that particular figure.

Mr Ó hOisín: It has risen to 8·96% over the last three years.

Mr Carson: Generally speaking, administrative costs is an area where we will look at the scope for savings, particularly if we can avoid having to go to front-line services. However, because of the magnitude of the cuts involved, all expenditure items will need to be considered.

Mr Ó hOisín: Admin seems to have cost a lot more than in some of the other ALB delivery areas, such as Sports NI, languages, Waterways Ireland and other ALBs put together. It seems excessive.

Mr Carson: DCAL is a relatively small Department and, as a proportion of its overall expenditure, administrative costs would be higher as it is unable to secure the economies of scale that would be present in a larger Department. That will contribute to the overall picture.

Mr Ó hOisín: Notwithstanding that, a number of the ALBs have their own administrative sections as well.

Mr Carson: Yes.

Mr Ó hOisín: Is there any doubling up there that could perhaps be looked at?

Mr Carson: Fergus referred to the shared services project. One of its objectives is to try to identify any savings that there might be through the sharing of those sorts of services. We are looking specifically at internal audit and IT services where savings could be achieved through working together. That is being actively taken forward. If we identify savings, I think that we would be keen to look at other areas in the same vein.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Would it be possible to get an explanation for the rise from £6·7 million in 2011-12 to £7·3 million in October 2014? That is a rise of £600,000. Now, depending on what salaries there are, or what level of salary you are talking about, that seems to be a great number of people. What are the extra posts?

Mr Carson: Where are you are taking those figures from, Chair?

The Committee Clerk: Chair, we have that information from the research that was provided to the Committee by the Assembly's financial scrutiny unit. We can provide that to you.

Mr Carson: That would be helpful.

The Committee Clerk: Our understanding is that it came directly from the Department.

Mr Carson: It would be helpful to have those numbers.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): We will certainly do that. It works out at an 8·96%, or a 9% rise, over that period. We will certainly forward the material provided by the researchers. Please give us an indication of where those extra posts were and what brought them into the Department.

Mr Carson: I know that there has been some one-off work in relation to specific initiatives. We had the World Police and Fire Games, for example, and it may be that that is the cause of that rise, but we will certainly confirm the reasons for it.

Mr McMullan: Will the money in the budget for disability sports be protected?

Mr Devitt: We are working closely with Sport NI at the moment to go through its proposals to see where budget reductions might come across its range of programmes. I cannot say for certain at this point whether any areas of its expenditure are going to be protected. That is something we have to work through the detail of.

Mr McMullan: OK. Has the RPA had any input into the budget thought process?

Mr Devitt: Are you referring to the reorganisation of the councils?

Mr McMullan: Yes.

Mr Devitt: No, it has had no direct input into the budget process but, as I mentioned earlier, I am not sure whether you were here —

Mr McMullan: I beg your pardon.

Mr Devitt: It is important, and I do not mind emphasising it again. Sport NI is doing a significant piece of work with all the new council areas on a facilities strategy to map what sports facilities there are, in what areas and what investment is needed in the future to enhance those rather than duplicate them.

Mr Scott: The ministerial advisory group for architecture and the built environment is also heavily involved in working with the councils on their place-making and planning role. It offers advice and guidance to the councils. We are transferring some sites that are operated by the Department to the councils.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): We will end the briefing there. Thank you for coming.