Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Dunne): Good morning. How are you? Breandán and Gráinne, you are very welcome. Make yourselves comfortable and, when you are ready, lead off. I take it that you are leading off, Breandán?

Mr Breandán Mac Giolla Uir (Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann): Yes.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Dunne): As the rector. It says "rector" here.

The Committee Clerk: It is a literal translation. I imagine that there is more nuance than that, but that is our literal translation.

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: I am the regional organiser. "General dogsbody" is another term that can be used.

Thank you for the opportunity, Chair and members. This is Gráinne Scullion, one of our volunteers in Comhaltas, from the Castlewellan/Newcastle direction. I am Breandán Mac Giolla Uir, the organiser for Comhaltas in Ulster. In the opening statement, we will focus on what Comhaltas is, the work of Comhaltas, where we work, what we see as the barriers for the arts, how we look to overcome them, and the monetary and social benefits that Comhaltas brings. I will let Gráinne take over and go through what Comhaltas is and the work that we do.

Ms Gráinne Scullion (Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann): Thanks, Breandán. Comhaltas or, to give it its full name, Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann — we will sometimes refer to it as "Comhaltas" and sometimes as "CCÉ"; those are the two abbreviations — was founded in 1951. As part of our constitution, we are a non-profit, non-sectarian, non-political cultural movement. It started as a grass-roots organisation to preserve and promote Irish music, song, dance and the language. It has grown substantially over the years. We currently have over 40,000 members. Our members are spread across the world. We have members throughout Ireland obviously, England, Scotland, Wales, across Europe, North America, South America, Australia and Japan. In Ulster, you can see its popularity from the All-Ireland Fleadh in Derry in 2013, where we had over 430,000 attendees, bringing approximately £42 million into the economy. Approximately 25,000 attend the Ulster Fleadh each year, and it is worth just under £2·25 million to the local economy. We have 75 branches in Ulster, right across the counties. We have branches in rural and urban areas. They range in size and the activities that they provide.

What do we actually do? Comhaltas starts at branch level. Everybody is a member of a branch. I am a member of the Newcastle branch, which, strangely, is in Castlewellan. We start with classes, sessions, concerts, talks and ceilidhs. Sometimes, individual branches or smaller branches group together to run activities and weekend events, masterclasses and that sort of thing. The main focus of our year is the fleadhanna. A fleadh or festival consists of a few different things. There are 49 competitions in mostly four different age groups, ranging from music, song and dance. As well as the competitions as the focus of a weekend, we have concerts, talks, parades and sessions. Every county has a fleadh, and people move on from the county fleadh to the provincial fleadh, and then from the provincial fleadh to the All-Ireland Fleadh. It is called the All-Ireland Fleadh, but it is really a world fleadh, because we have competitors from America, Europe and elsewhere. That is the core work that we do, but we are also involved in lots of other activities, including training for our members in their various roles. We work with different organisations. For example, my branch works with the Irish language organisation in the area. We work with different charities. One of our big charity initiatives is Trad for Trócaire. We take part in that every September/October time. We also run trips and exchanges. My branch has been to Chicago and Florida. We have played at festivals in France. The main work is that all branches strive to promote the best opportunities and experiences for all our members, particularly young people. I will pass you back to Breandán.

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: I will move on to the focus of the investigation on the working classes in the arts. We will talk from our experience.

What makes Comhaltas accessible? As Gráinne said, we are, first and foremost, a community-based volunteer cultural movement. Local people are more accessible and approachable for those engaging for the first time with the arts. We see that as an essential tool to get people to engage. They are able to engage with their neighbours and people from their community before they look to go to more formalised arts venues. We have a large geographical footprint, with 75 branches across Ulster. As we said, they are mostly rural — they are spread across the province — but we also have branches in Belfast, Derry, Omagh, Portadown etc. We are always looking to expand. If anyone knows of an area that needs a branch, give us a call. We will not be long getting together.

From our point of view, the main barriers to people engaging with the arts are awareness, location, opportunity and cost. As we said, our wide geographical footprint helps us to negate some of the barriers, such as location, opportunity and awareness. We are continually working hard to increase awareness of the work that Comhaltas does through social networks, websites and traditional media, including newspapers, radio etc. Our network, and other organisations that we work with and other links that we have made in the community, also help us to do that. One of the main awareness-raising tools is that our events are community-based events. They are organised by community volunteers assisted by the structure of Comhaltas, but it is mainly community-based ones. That allows communities to feel a sense of ownership of the events, the classes and the branch itself. It creates that community buy-in, and, in turn, the community do a lot of the awareness-raising for us in their areas.

Our volunteers also have links to other community organisations, be that churches, schools, the GAA and many others. When we talk about awareness, it is an experience. We can have people from New York or mainland Europe at our fleadh, yet you will talk to someone a week later who lives 10 miles down the road and did not know that it was on. Our job is to make sure that the information is there, but it is for people looking to engage to seek that information. That is a vitally important point to make.

As to location, our footprint, as I said, helps us to negate that, but, from an arts point of view, arts events are quite often held in urban areas. They are in formal arts buildings, which can be a barrier to someone going. They can feel intimidated; it can be hard to get the first foot across the threshold. Comhaltas's events are organised by the community in the community, or they are in a community-based building that is normally familiar to people. It can often include a family member. That allows for that first-time engagement with arts and culture, and people can build from that base.

The big one we see is opportunity and cost. Comhaltas feels that everyone should have the opportunity to engage in the arts, especially with us, and that cost should not be a barrier. We look at a number of ways of negating that. We have a low-cost structure; it is approximately £3 per class. If you look at it in terms of music, and singing, for example, most people have a voice, and they can attend a singing class for very low money. A tin whistle can cost £4, and it at least gets someone on that road to starting. We also have a lot of free events, especially in our fleadhs, such as street sessions, singing sessions and bar sessions. We also have alcohol-free areas for youth sessions and things like that so that people can engage, without any cost to them, in their local community.

We have instrument rental schemes for more expensive instruments such as pipes, harps, concertinas and instruments like that. People can rent them for a while, so they are not out that huge money before a child or young person starts playing the music. We also do family discounts. Essentially, Comhaltas works with families and people all across to make sure that every child has the opportunity. If a family is in difficulty money-wise, we look to work with them to ensure that the child gets an opportunity. Cost or poverty should never be a barrier to people.

Comhaltas, most obviously, will raise cultural awareness, and helps artists in our community to earn a living. Outside of that, maybe not as obvious, are the benefits of increased confidence and capacity through our events and classes. It develops effective event-leadership skills and builds community confidence, social capital and community attachment. It creates community engagement and partnership working through the events and our meitheal initiative. Look at the 2013 All-Ireland Fleadh in Derry and some of the engagement with district councils, local band associations, the GAA, Ulster Rugby, the PSNI, the local culturlann and many other groups working in partnership. It also improves intergenerational relations, tackling isolation and mental health problems, and gives our older people a feeling of self-worth by bridging the generational gap through skill-sharing and the handing down of the tradition, so that the older people are continually educating the younger and vice versa.

Look at education: the numbers attending our classes and fleadheanna are increasing every year. We have 6,000 members across Ulster, and 4,500 take part in our classes. These might not be huge numbers, but we engage with over 60,000 people across Ulster over the course of each year, ranging in age from eight to 88. So many people are engaging: the number of people outside our own organisation learning traditional music and the traditional arts is increasing year on year, thankfully. It instils that lifelong learning attitude into our young people.

Comhaltas fosters the spirit of volunteering among young and old, and that can benefit people when they are seeking jobs. They gain some experience, whether in events management or in other aspects. Then there is the good relations work. The event in Derry was the biggest we have held in the north, and the two main traditions were able to come together and celebrate a cultural event. I stand to be corrected, but it was probably one of the only cultural events where both traditions came together, celebrated well and went away feeling they had got something from it. Our satisfaction surveys for Derry came out at over 80% across the board and for the Ulster Fleadh, which is a smaller event, at 95%.

We also look at the economic impact of Comhaltas on the economy, most notably through the 2013 All-Ireland Fleadh, which 430,000 people attended. Twenty-five thousand came in for the Ulster Fleadh, a smaller event in a much smaller location. Bear in mind that the population of Derry is under 110,000 and that of Dromore, where the Ulster Fleadh was held, is under 1,500. That is a huge influx of people into those areas. The economic outturn of Comhaltas in 2013 was over £45 million into the local economy. The legacy is the contribution to the economic stability of the region, but also, and especially for the smaller events, to the economic stability of rural and smaller businesses.

Thankfully, this investigation is being held by the Culture Committee, but the work of Comhaltas, and of many other arts organisations that have been in to see you, cuts across so many other Departments: DCAL on engaging people with the arts; OFMDFM on cross-community relations, good relations and citizenship; DETI on tourism; and DSD on volunteering. We feel that the work of Comhaltas is very important, and we hope that it will continue for many years to come, as we hope will you. We welcome any questions at this stage. Thank you very much.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Dunne): Thank you very much, Breandán and Gráinne. That was quite informative; I found it quite interesting. What are you doing to broaden the appeal of your culture to people like me and my colleagues from the unionist tradition? There is a strong perception that it is all one way. What are you doing to improve that?

Ms Scullion: We are trying to do that in lots of small ways in our branches. For example, the Presbyterian minister in Castlewellan is a member of Comhaltas, and —

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Dunne): That is scary.

Ms Scullion: — is very involved with the local branch. In bigger ways over the last few years we have really tried to engage through our fleadhs. We started with the bands. Every fleadh has a parade, and we have tried to engage with bands from both communities so as to get more involvement from the unionist community.

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: Especially for our bigger events, we approach all the churches in the area, as we did in Dromore, to ask for traditional music in the church service on the weekend of the fleadh, just to celebrate the fact that it is there. In 2013 we also engaged with the band association in the north-west, and then the pride play was put on during the All-Ireland Fleadh in Derry. Now we are looking at developing community engagement strategies for each of our county and provincial fleadhs to try and welcome everyone to the event and let them see that it is a non-threatening cultural celebration.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Dunne): You mentioned the City of Culture and how it was able to attract both communities. How was that achieved?

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: By a very, very talented person, is the best way to explain it. One of the big things that were set out at the very start was trying to get buy-in from the whole community. Events were also held on both sides of the river to open it up to everyone. One person — I did not get the name — said that the reason we got so much buy-in — I apologise, but they are not my words — was that Derry people are inherently nosy and wanted to see what was going on.

It started with a trickle coming across the new bridge, and by the Friday and Saturday of the week it was a flood. Everyone wanted to see what was happening. It was a very good festival atmosphere. Events on both sides of the river helped show all communities that they were welcome.

Mr Ó hOisín: Go raibh maith agat, Breandán and Gráinne. As a Derry person, I take no offence.

I have gone to fleadhs and feiseanna and what have you down through the years. I was in Derry over the All-Ireland Fleadh, and the general feeling right across the board — it was not just a nationalist-unionist divide; there was a north-south thing which was a big factor in it — was that the fleadh in Derry dispelled a lot of myths, and I think it is "changed, changed utterly", as Yeats would have said. The figure itself was a moveable feast. How did you come to the figure of 430,000 over the course of the week? Some people put the figure a lot higher. How was that quantified, and was there any indication of people's origins, their outlook and the make-up? It was a very fluid thing, as fleadhs are, and it is hard to get quantitative or qualitative information.

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: The 430,000 is the official PSNI figure. Roughly 60% of people came from the north, and of those roughly 50% were from the county of Derry itself. More importantly, 10% came from England, Scotland and Wales, and I think 3·75% from America and 3·4% from the rest of Europe. We did an independent economic and social impact study — we did one for the Ulster Fleadh and the all-Ireland in 2013 — which surveyed a number of people. That is where the figures are coming from.

Mr Ó hOisín: That is good to know. You mentioned the cost of tuition and learning and what have you. We probably started at the lower end with the likes of tin whistles and singing. At the upper end there are uilleann pipes and accordions and all sorts, which are very, very expensive. Is there the funding that there is for the ceilidh bands as well?

Ms Scullion: There is lots of help available. From my own personal experience, I started learning the concertina about 5 years ago. I was a bit late to the game. I did not know if I was going to like it, but the branch lend you out a concertina for £20 for the entire year to see if you are actually going to enjoy it. They do that with people of all ages, obviously. When I decided that I wanted to buy a concertina myself, which was about £1,000, the branch gave me a no-interest loan that I could pay over whatever amount of time I wanted. That happens with all branches. We are always fundraising to try to ensure that cost is not something that puts people off.

Mr Ó hOisín: How much money comes centrally from DCAL, the Arts Council or whatever?

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: Funding-wise, we currently get £34,000 from the Arts Council, but that is almost ring-fenced to our fleadhs. We are trying to negotiate with them to see if there is a possibility of opening it up to other weekend festivals, classes and things like that.

Mr Ó hOisín: But nothing for equipment and such.

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: No, nothing for equipment. They do have a fund for marching bands, but they do not have one for the likes of ceilidh bands. There is also a fund for instruments called the Take It Away fund, which the Arts Council runs. There are a number of recognised retailers across the North where you can pay a 10% deposit and pay for the instrument over 10 months.

Mr Ó hOisín: Given the economic value of Fleadh Cheoil na hEireann — some £43 million, according to estimates — what plans are there to try to push for the Irish City of Culture for 2016, or, indeed, the European City of Culture in 2021?

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: Again, it is up to the branches really. I take it you are talking about pushing for the likes of the All-Ireland Fleadh to return.

Mr Ó hOisín: The All-Ireland Fleadh back to Derry. That is its natural home, of course.

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: It is up to the branches to pitch for the event. At the minute there has been some talk about applications going in, but we do not have any formal applications in. The pitch would come in from a local branch and then that would go to their county board — to Ulster — and on to the ardchomhairle where the vote is taken as to where it would go. Obviously, given the economic value of it, a number of areas are now looking at the All-Ireland Fleadh as a serious event. A lot of people are coming in to look for it. Personally, as the organiser within Ulster, I would love to see it coming back, because it is a huge event and it raises awareness of Comhaltas and the work that we do across the board.

Mr Ó hOisín: You also had Martin McGuinness being regaled by a unionist band on the city walls at the time, which is probably a memory that will remain.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Dunne): He what? What was that?

Mr Ó hOisín: He was regaled by one or two bands from the other tradition.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Dunne): Was he? He has moved on.

Mr Ó hOisín: Well, somebody has moved on. Go raibh maith agat.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Dunne): Right. Karen, how are you on the tin whistle? Are you good?

Mrs McKevitt: I can play it, yes — just about. Thanks very much for your presentation. Cathal has touched on a few things that I was going to touch on, but I am not going to repeat them. You talked about funding. Do you get funding from the GAA?

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: No.

Mrs McKevitt: Although most of your branches use GAA halls.

Ms Scullion: Some do.

Mrs McKevitt: Because they are rural and they do not have many community facilities, so the GAA opens its doors to organisations so that they can practice or hold events.

Ms Scullion: There is a kind of unofficial relationship with the GAA. If they need musicians, we refer them. A lot of our musicians also play sports for the GAA, but there is no money changing hands between the two.

Mrs McKevitt: Yes, but I suppose it is in kind, like with the use of their building. It is very important to keep that going.

Ms Scullion: There is a good relationship between the two organisations.

Mrs McKevitt: I would like to see the All-Ireland Fleadh going to Warrenpoint. A number of years ago we were very close to it, in fact. I would like to see more involvement with local government, particularly with the change now, to see if we can boost that tourism, particularly for the southern end of south Down, by maybe bidding for the All-Ireland Fleadh to come. I will try to encourage our local Comhaltas branches to put that bid forward for Warrenpoint.

I do not think you are selling yourselves enough on the involvement of musicians. They take their talent into school and play in their school orchestra to the likes of the Fiddler's Green Festival in Rostrevor, where that talent is shown on the street. I was more impressed when the cruise ship came into Warrenpoint and they had a full —

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Dunne): Sorry; is this an advert, yes?

Mrs McKevitt: No, it is not. I am getting to the importance of selling oneself. Musicians were on the street and there was a wee play going on and people from all traditions were able to stand and tap the foot. To me, that is what the Comhaltas is all about: respecting the music, not so much on a stage, but certainly on the streets with the people. For me, that is where you get goosebumps. It is a great organisation. Then there is the Take It Away fund, where the families pay 10%. Do you have a grant towards that? Do you give families sums to coincide with that?

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: Again, as Gráinne said, a number of the branches may help out, but we do not have an official grant fund for it. Quite simply, we do not have the money for it. As I said, we get £34,000 given to the Ulster Council from the Arts Council, and that is the majority of the funding that we get. I did a survey a few years ago in relation to local councils and what the branches were getting. It worked out that £14,000 was coming in from across the North. At that stage, we were not getting any official Arts Council money. So we do not have the funds, centrally, to be able to put out any grant aid for people to buy instruments.

Mrs McKevitt: Do you think that that puts people off? I know a lot of families traditionally play, and they share their instruments among cousins, aunties, uncles, nieces, nephews and whatever. Do you think that is putting people off?

Ms Scullion: As Breandán said, you can start with the tin whistle, which does not cost much money; that is open to everybody. You can sing or dance, and you do not need to buy instruments for that. I come from a very big branch, so there are a lot of members, a lot of classes, and we can do a lot of fundraising because there are a lot of volunteers. We have the facility to help families out with a no-interest loan. Comhaltas is structured so that there is branch level, county and then provincial. If there is another branch within the county which is not as well-off or as successful as the Newcastle branch — maybe it is much smaller and it has only, say, 100 members — bigger branches will help out within the county, if there is anything they can do. For example, we have a fundraising concert once a year to which all branches come, and the money made is distributed around the branches which are struggling a bit to buy instruments and things like that. So there is plenty of cooperation between us.

Mrs McKevitt: Thanks very much. Just keep Warrenpoint on your agenda.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Dunne): You never miss a chance, do you?

Right, David. Let us see how good you are on the tin whistle.

Mr Hilditch: Probably not so good. Thank you for your presentation this morning. So far, we have been discussing Comhaltas itself and how you are dealing with awareness, location, opportunity and cost. I admire how you have been dealing with that and trying to overcome barriers. However, let me move the inquiry sideways. How do you find collaboration with those in Northern Ireland who are responsible for the delivery of the arts, should it be the Arts Council or some of the big venues — the arts providers as such? Has that been working out for you? How is that relationship?

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: It is getting better. I agree with the point that, for many years, we have undersold ourselves. We are now among the organisations regularly funded by the Arts Council. We are getting £34,000 given to the Ulster Council for the work of Comhaltas in the North. I always push the fact that, yes, that allows us to put some development into our fleadhs, but it does not allow us to develop as an organisation. We look at Comhaltas and see the social and cultural impact that we could have but, with that sort of money, you cannot move that work forward. For example, I am the only employee of Comhaltas in the North, and I am paid for by money got in Dublin. It is that sort of thing. We do not have the funding put into it. It is the same story for a number of arts organisations, providers and community groups across the North. Our relationship is getting better, as I say, and we are looking to move forward from this point. All I can say is that it is only in its infancy.

Ms Scullion: You were asking about the organisations and venues. Traditionally, Comhaltas worked in smaller venues if we were having a concert, a session or that sort of thing. However, as Comhaltas has grown and members have grown in confidence that they can put on an event in a small location, we have now engaged more with bigger locations.

For example, Loch Lao in Belfast had a concert in the Waterfront Hall. We have had events in the Strule Arts Centre in Omagh. I think that we are engaging with the bigger venues now because members have greater confidence. They have run smaller events and feel that they can now take on the challenge of bigger ones.

Mr Hilditch: You say that, because they have gained confidence, the participants have been able to do that, but has help been coming down to them from the arts providers?

Ms Scullion: It is as Breandán said: it is getting better.

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: It is getting better, but we are getting on not terribly well. We are not seen as —

Mr Hilditch: That is where we want to get to. We want to hear the nuts and bolts.

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: "Not terribly well" is, I suppose, how I can best describe how we are getting on, but it is getting better.

Mr Hilditch: You are very diplomatic.

Ms McCorley: Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. Agus go raibh maith agat as an chur i láthair.

Thank you for the presentation. I know a bit about the fleadh. I was at Clonmel one year, and I had a great time. I am waiting for it to come to Belfast. Everybody is waiting for the fleadh to come to their part of the world, because it is such a huge event and is so successful.

Can you confirm a couple of things for me? What did you say was the sum of money generated by the fleadh for the local economy in Derry?

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: We are talking about the All-Ireland Fleadh in Derry, yes? The figure was £42 million.

Ms McCorley: That is a colossal figure. How much does it cost you to stage the event?

Ms Scullion: A lot.

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: Yes. The delivery cost for that event was just under £1·5 million. That included over half a million pounds for health and safety.

Ms McCorley: Were you funded for that?

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: There were a number of funders for that: Derry City Council; the City of Culture; and the Tourist Board. A small amount was given by the Arts Council as well. I can give you the exact figures if you wish.

Ms McCorley: Those would be useful. It is a fantastic achievement to have generated that amount of money for the local economy.

Tell me more about the involvement of the unionist bands. That was a big development, and it was a really positive thing to see.

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: I suppose that it came from an engagement with the bands forum. It made a presentation to the fleadh executive committee. I was there that night. Its representatives talked about how similar the traditions are, and something that we would always say is that the traditions are older than our divisions. The music and the notation are the same, although the words and the name may be different. The representatives made that point very strongly and said that they really wanted to be involved. Unfortunately, they should have come to us a wee bit earlier. It seems that bands love competition; that seems to be a big part of it for them. They wanted to see whether they could take part in the fleadh. However, because they had missed the county fleadh — there is structure to qualifying structure — they were unable to do so. However, a number of those bands came to Sligo last year and played on the Gig Rig there. It was not a flash in the pan is the best way to put it. That relationship is still going, and we are looking to build on it. Prior to 2013, if you look at the Cavan Fleadhs, Willie Drennan was present, and a number of bands came down with him. As I said, it has been an ongoing relationship, which is building, and we see it as an important opening-up. As I said at the start, we are non-political and non-sectarian. We do not see any lines: we hear music, and we welcome everybody to the forum.

Ms McCorley: Were those Derry bands or were they from other parts of the North?

Ms Scullion: They were local bands. For the Ulster Fleadh in Dromore last year, we involved local bands from both sides of the community. However, in Sligo last year, all sorts of bands were playing. They were not just local to Sligo but from all over.

Ms McCorley: OK. That is really positive. The inquiry is about the inclusion of working-class communities in the arts. Some elements of working-class communities have been excluded, or have felt excluded, from the arts.

An organisation such as yours, with the work that you do, is really good. However, the funding issue and the lack of instruments may add to that exclusion. What have you done to meet the demand that you have for instruments? You said that marching bands are funded for instruments, so why should other bands not be funded? Why should funding be limited? Have you challenged that?

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: The short answer to that is yes. We, as one of its clients, are in continual discussions with the Arts Council about trying to increase our funding from it. I have challenged the Arts Council a number of times on the bands fund, telling them that I feel strongly that it should be opened up to all people. It points us to the Take it away scheme. I suppose that the Arts Council's counterargument to us is that its budget is continually contracting and that it is trying to stick to its currently available funding.

With the dancing, the singing and the tin whistle, it takes only a small amount of money to allow someone, from any background, to get involved. I have numerous examples. Parents will come to a member of the branch and say that they would like their son or daughter to take part and start learning an instrument but that they just cannot afford it. The door is never closed, and they will be handed a tin whistle. Someone will have a tin whistle sitting in the house, or a fiddle or an accordion that is not being used at the time. It will be handed to the child, and the child will become involved.

That is not written down. We do not have policies on how we interact with any class in the community, but part of our core work is to make sure that everybody has that opportunity. That is really how we work it in Comhaltas.

Ms Scullion: We are a community-based organisation, so we are very lucky that some people gift us instruments that they might no longer play or that are sitting around the house with nobody playing them. We then pass those on to people who are in need of an instrument but cannot afford to buy one.

Ms McCorley: Is there a limit to the types of instruments, or is it anything?

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: It is anything. A young girl from Omagh recently won the All-Ireland Fleadh playing a saxophone. It is more about the tunes that people are playing.

Ms McCorley: OK. Thank you. There is a lot of very useful information in there. I commend you for the work that you do and look forward to the fleadh coming to County Antrim. Go raibh maith agat.

Mr McMullan: Thank you for your presentation. We have a very strong Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann branch in the glens, and I know the work that you do throughout the whole community. I do not think that how you entice people from the unionist community into your organisation is an issue, because it is filled with unionists, especially musicians, from all the traditions. I know that, and even some people who play in marching bands play with Comhaltas.

The thing that worries me is the lack of funding that has come to Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann over the years. That could be the result of a lack of applications. From looking through some of the figures, I see that, from 2006-07 to 2009-2010, marching bands received £878,000, and that is not including funding from the Arts Council. Funding from it is on top of that again. One thing that Comhaltas has to do is look at how it goes about funding its activities. I had a talk with some members a couple of years ago on the subject, and I was quite surprised by their attitude towards it.

Ms Scullion: A lot of that is because it is a volunteer organisation, and the people involved do not feel that they have the expertise to complete application forms to seek funding from the Arts Council. That is why, for the county fleadhs, the funding comes centrally from the Ulster Council of Comhaltas, and Breandán, who is in an ideal place, in that he now understands the forms, can work with the Arts Council to secure funding. However, in some of the smaller branches, the volunteers just do not feel that they have the skills to apply for the funding. They do not know what they are looking for or how to fill in the form — that sort of thing.

Mr McMullan: Some of the funding that I am talking about — the money for musical instruments — totalled just over half a million pounds in that period.

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: As I said, I have been in post for only five or six years. To give you an example, our head office in Dublin has six staff. The thing is that Comhaltas has always been run on a very small, tight budget.

Everybody here has probably been involved with a community group at some stage. Given the amount of bureaucracy, reporting and evaluating that is needed for the application form, and the accompanying red tape, when you are a volunteer in an organisation, it is very hard to go through that process. It takes so much time, and people lead very busy lives. That is where we are at the minute. We are looking to try to improve relations with funders, the Departments and bodies such as yours so that people can see the good work that we are doing.

For the purpose of the inquiry, we are not the only organisation in that boat. There are organisations that have been able to get their hands on the money because they have the expertise and the staff. Unfortunately, we just do not have that.

Mr McMullan: Can I suggest that you think about the community networks? They do that work for groups. That is somewhere that you could go to.

I congratulate you on your charitable work and the work that you do in communities. You are a lifeline in communities when events are being held.

held at home by the Comhaltas, and he actually had a Lambeg drum at it. That caused quite a stir.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Dunne): That was a bit of progress, Oliver, was it not?

Mr McMullan: I do not know about that.

But it was quite interesting. Well done.

Ms Scullion: Thank you.

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: Thank you.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Dunne): Basil, I reckon that you are a man who could pick up a tin whistle.

Mr B McCrea: It was great to hear about all the work that you do, but the particular thing with this inquiry is working-class participation in the arts. There is a feeling that, in other cultural circles, the working class are excluded. Do you have a view on that?

Ms Scullion: We were just talking about that as we were coming up here. I think that Comhaltas is classless. I know so many people through Comhaltas, but I have no idea what they do. I have no idea whether they are the richest people in the world or are earning the minimum wage. All people from all backgrounds are involved in Comhaltas.

Mr B McCrea: Will you give us some —

Ms Scullion: Why?

Mr B McCrea: — help and advice as to why that might be the case?

Ms Scullion: I think that it is because it is community-based. As Breandán said, we have 75 branches across Ulster, and we are in rural communities. It is about local people working together. That is really why it is —

Mr B McCrea: There is a contrary notion that sometimes when you bring money into it, that drives out the community nature. If you have money —

Ms Scullion: I think that we would cope.

Mr B McCrea: I want to talk about the working-class element, but I will drift a little and talk about the money. You said that the fleadh brought in £42 million. It seems strange, for an event of that size, even with it costing £1·5 million, that, somehow or other, you have not managed to get more money out of it for Comhaltas.

Ms Scullion: That money was brought into the local economy. It has not been —

Mr B McCrea: I know the impact that it had. Getting it there was not without its difficulties, but, having got it there, it was really successful. It was really significant. Would I be right in saying that it was probably the flagship event in that year? It was bigger than almost anything else. I just think that you ought to be able to have a bit more leverage. I am not being critical. I am simply saying to you that you have the Crown Jewels but that people are not helping you enough.

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: On that side of things, a small donation from the fleadh budget goes to head office to help the whole organisation with work and organising. However, that money is minimal. If, for example, we started to take the entry fees for competitions into Comhaltas, that would work quite well at All-Ireland Fleadh level. However, at a county level, where you might have a small fleadh with a few hundred or perhaps a thousand people going to the competitions, the money that comes in on the door is key to running it, because we have not had any funding over the years.

Mr B McCrea: Have you ever been to an Irish festival in America, such as the Milwaukee Irish Fest or anything like that?

Ms Scullion: I have not.

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: I have not either, but I know a number of our people who have.

Mr B McCrea: That is where I had my conversion. I went to the Milwaukee Irish Fest by mistake. I discovered that I had a great time. The thing that made me laugh was that I met half the Ulster-Scots Agency out there as well. There was a bit where people were just picking up different instruments and asking how you play this and that. Musicians just naturally wanted to join in. It was interesting. However, up until I went to that, I was not really keen on culture, because I thought that it was a bit divisive. It turned my mind around.

My question is this: how would you engage with working-class communities from the different traditions? You could do it at national fleadh level, but it might be a wee bit off-putting for people to go along to local GAA venues.

Ms Scullion: Funnily, there is a local branch in County Down that had always operated from a GAA club. It felt the same thing. It came from a mixed community and wanted to invite more people in, so it moved venue. The branch is now in a community centre for that very reason. It wanted to encourage more people to join.

Mr B McCrea: I will finish by making an observation. You seem to be really successful at community level. I am interested in how you reach people who might not normally get involved. "Culture" sometimes sounds like culture with a big "C". I suspect that half the people who go to your thing see it as having a small "c" or as their culture. How do you think people look at the activities that they engage in with you? Do they see them as culture or as having a good time?

Ms Scullion: Probably a mixture. I am from a very big branch, and some people who are involved in it probably see it as somewhere to which they can drop the kids off for a couple of hours to do something to do with music and then pick them up later. They do not engage much more than that. Other people live and breathe the music, the tradition and the culture. There is a wide range in the organisation.

Mr B McCrea: One sentence to finish, Chair. It strikes me that you have an opportunity to engage with people from different traditions, without forcing it on them. Look at the funding. There is a Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure, and you could go above the Arts Council and say, "This is what we contribute to your aims". If you do not force people into things — if they just get on with it — things happen. I encourage you and will support you in any of that if I can.

Ms Scullion: Thank you.

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: I wish to add just one thing to that. I spoke earlier about Lisa in Derry in 2013 — I am trying desperately to remember her surname. She was the community engagement officer there. In our branch, if we were able to get money for a community engagement officer, brilliant work could be done on bringing people in and looking at a strategy for the whole organisation to bring everyone together. It is a very open organisation.

Mr Dunne: Thank very much. William, you are next to give us a tune.

Mr Humphrey: Thank you very much for your time and your presentation.

The inquiry is about connectivity with working-class communities, as Mr McCrea identified. I am interested in the difference between the rural and urban context. I represent an urban constituency. I will touch on whom you reach out to in a moment, but how do you reach out to the people who come to your events, should those be branch meetings, or whatever? Can you also tell me what a branch meeting entails?

Ms Scullion: A branch meeting.

Mr Humphrey: Yes. What do you do at them?

Ms Scullion: It depends on the branch what the meeting will entail. We have a structure in Comhaltas. Branches have a chair, a vice-chair, a secretary, a treasurer, a youth officer and a public relations officer. They meet on a regular basis to discuss whatever issues are particular to that branch.

Mr Humphrey: They meet as an executive. Is that right?

Ms Scullion: Sort of, yes. Again, it depends on the branch. We invite all our members to branch meetings. We usually get just the executive, but we invite all members. We talk about events that are coming up, about classes, about how we will promote a particular instrument and about whether we feel that we need more expertise. For example, we have pipers. Somebody comes in once a month to help with them. We talk about those types of things.

Mr Humphrey: OK. I have to apologise because my colleague called me out about an urgent issue, so I missed part of your presentation. When you meet, you discuss instruments, the Irish language, poetry and that sort of thing.

Ms Scullion: Music, song, dance and language are our four main areas.

Mr Humphrey: In the Irish tradition.

Ms Scullion: Yes.

Mr Humphrey: How do you reach out, connect and get people to come in, join your branch or come to your events?

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: Articles are put in newspapers. You try to get as much coverage as you can. You put posters in local shops and community buildings.

Ms Scullion: Social media.

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: Yes, social media. Not all branches have a website. If they do, they put information on the website. They text-message people who have registered previously.

Again, a lot of our committee members or people in the branch are part of the local community, so they are involved in other areas. They might be involved in local schools, Churches or other organisations in the area.

Mr Humphrey: OK. I am a member of the Orange Order. The make-up of its membership is different in the city and in rural areas. In the city, it is much more working class. In the country, it is across the classes, or classless. Is it the same in your organisation?

Ms Scullion: Possibly.

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: Quite possibly, but, again, at the same time, our main urban areas are the likes of Derry and Belfast. I am from Dromore. When I look at the membership of the branch in Omagh, which is a decent-sized town, I see that there is a good mix of people. A number of people would be quite wealthy, but there are others who would be classed as being working class or working poor.

Mr Humphrey: Mr Bobby Foster came to the Committee from a cultural group on the Shankill. One of the points that he made when he gave evidence to us was that, when the people who are involved in the cultural work that he does — I have to say that I agree with him — come along to his group's events in his area, they do not necessarily see the cultural activity in which they are involved as the arts but as culture. That does not mean that it is anything less artistic, but they see it as culture. Do you agree with that?

Ms Scullion: Definitely. There is no clear line where culture ends and arts begin. I think that the line between the two is completely blurred.

Mr Humphrey: I think that for, many people in the working classes, the term "arts" becomes a barrier. They see it as elitist and potentially more expensive than it probably is in practice.

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: I agree. Again, that goes back to the formal arts centres and buildings that we have. It is brilliant to have that infrastructure there, but, because they are classed as arts centres, they can also often be an intimidating environment for people who are not used to engaging with the arts. They may be doing several things that meet the dictionary definition of "arts", yet they view them as culture or something completely different.

Mr Humphrey: Which is exactly, more or less, what the people from New Lodge were saying.

Can I ask you about funding? There has been much talk here about funding for marching bands. I should point out that the funding for marching bands is extremely limited and is nowhere near the potential to meet the demand that there would be for it. I have no difficulty with that funding being expanded to include musicians and bands other than marching or parading bands. My colleague Mr Anderson raised the issue of Lambeg drumming clubs. They cannot get funding either, because they are not deemed marching bands. You certainly would not march behind a Lambeg drum, and you certainly would not be marching if you were playing it. I therefore have sympathy with that point.

Breandán, you are the only staff member in Northern Ireland. How is your organisation funded?

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: Poorly.

The organisation itself receives a reasonable revenue grant from the Government in the South, but, when you put that out across a worldwide organisation, it is small. Outside of that funding, we have a membership fee structure. I will give an example. I might not have the exact figures here —

Ms Scullion: It is £4 for children, £3 for seniors and £14 for a family.

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: Of the £14 for a family, £2 will be retained in the local branch. It goes then to the county board, which will retain, I think, £1·70 and send the rest on to the Ulster council. It is split that way so that each element of the triangle has some sort of portion of funding.

Mr Humphrey: OK. On the subject of instruments, Gráinne, you mentioned that you were learning to play the concertina and that you got it for £20 a year. That was a very good deal.

Ms Scullion: Yes.

Mr Humphrey: The instrument itself costs £1,000. There is obviously no way that some people, particularly from working-class communities, can buy such an instrument. Your branch buys the instrument and rents it to you for £20. It takes it 50 years to make back that money. Therefore, where does it get the money to pay for the instruments?

Ms Scullion: Luckily, the instruments that we buy are probably not £1,000 instruments. The concertina that I bought would be of a better quality than the one that I rented. Those concertinas are around £200. Yes, it takes a while to recoup the costs, but that is something that we are prepared to do. We will fundraise to get money for the instruments. As I say, sometimes we are gifted an instrument, which we can either sell on or hire out.

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: Branches like my own branch, if they want to buy some instruments, they might get the kids who are learning and one or two of those who are classed as expert musicians to come along and do a Christmas concert. It might be £5 or £10 in for family members. Each child might take one or two tickets, in the hope that the child will be there, Mum will be there and perhaps Dad will be paying. That is the sort of way to try to get them through the door. That money made will then be put back into either lessons or the purchase of instruments.

Mr Humphrey: Finally, Gráinne, you said that there is no official link with the GAA but that there is an unofficial one. What does that mean?

Ms Scullion: There is such a crossover between membership. A lot of our members play sports as well as instruments. We also work in the same communities. The link would be informal. If the GAA wants to put on a concert, it will come and talk to Comhaltas to ask whether there is any chance that it could have some musicians over for the event, or, as you were saying, sometimes we use the GAA facilities and things like that.

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: Another example is the Ulster Fleadh that was held in Dromore. We were able to go to the GAA because of the funding that it has been getting over the past number of years. We had looked at doing WorldHost training, steward training and stuff for community volunteers. We went to the GAA, as we were trying to gather together the money to do the training. It was able to say that it had 30 people who were trained who would come and help. There is that community ethos. Those people came in, and there was no cost at all to the branch. The GAA was able to provide stewards for junctions and things like that.

Mr Humphrey: I know that you touched on this with Mr McCrea, but, in some areas, if you are going to reach out to get the unionist community to come on board, meeting in GAA halls will be an impediment.

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: The main reason behind that is the lack of other community facilities in an area. The GAA club may be the best building in the town or area in which to hold instrument classes. Again, I am talking from personal experience. We have our meetings in the likes of the credit union building in the middle of the town, but it has only two rooms, so if you want to do music classes, it is not available for that.

We actually use the local high school. A lot of branches use high schools. Again, because of restrictions in the Department of Education, the cost to hire the building can be restrictive, because the caretaker must be there.

Mr Humphrey: OK. Thanks very much.

Mr McCausland: Apologies for not being here for the presentation. Taking Belfast as an example of an urban area, how many branches do you have in Belfast?

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: Two.

Mr McCausland: Where are they?

Ms Scullion: Loch Lao is kind of west Belfast.

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: The Belfast branch itself is on the Antrim Road.

Mr McCausland: Where does it meet on the Antrim Road?

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: There is a church there. As I said, the only time that I have been —

Mr McCausland: Oh, yes, it will be the 174 Trust building; the old Duncairn Presbyterian Church.

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: Quite possibly. I found it on a satnav.

Mr McCausland: It is at the top of the New Lodge Road. I think that is probably it. How many members are in each of those branches? I am just trying to get a sense of the scale in an urban area.

Ms Scullion: Loch Lao is quite a big branch.

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: Loch Lao is a big branch. The Belfast branch is an older branch, with a much older demographic within the membership. I do not think it does classes, but it helps local community groups that run classes. Loch Lao has a big membership and has big classes.

Ms Scullion: I know that they have groups and bands competing in all four age groups.

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: You are talking about 20 or 30 people for each band.

Ms Scullion: That is just in the band. There will also be parents. So, there would be a couple of hundred people.

Mr McCausland: A couple of hundred people in west Belfast and maybe 30 or so in the Belfast branch. So, across the city, you are talking about 250 or thereabouts. Thank you very much.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Dunne): I think that concludes the presentation. Sorry; there is one issue that I will just deal with first. Breandán, you mentioned an independent survey done on the impact of the all-Ireland fleadh in Londonderry in 2013. Can we get a copy of that?

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: I actually have about a dozen of them in the car, but carrying them up was the problem.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Dunne): Going up that hill is not easy; I can understand.

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: I can send either an electronic copy or a hard copy.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Dunne): Cathal, do you want to come in briefly.

Mr Ó hOisín: I just want to congratulate Comhaltas. I see that it has been awarded the European Citizen's Prize, which is given to citizens' organisation that have contributed to promoting better mutual understanding and closer integration between citizens of the member state. It is quite prestigious. I think you are getting it presented —

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: On Saturday morning.

Mr Ó hOisín: In Tipperary. You were nominated by a number of colleagues of mine. Comhghairdeas.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Dunne): Breandán and Gráinne, thanks very much for your presentation. It was very informative. Hopefully we will get something from it. We have certainly enjoyed it and learned quite a bit about your organisation, so thanks very much for coming along today and taking the time to put forward your presentation.

Mr B Mac Giolla Uir: Thank you again for the opportunity.