Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Thank you very much indeed, Valerie, William and Codie, for coming along this morning. You are aware of the remit of the discussion, which is around arts, the relationship to and inclusion in the arts of working-class communities. Thank you for coming. Would you like to proceed with your presentation?

Ms Valerie Quinn (Confederation of Ulster Bands): Thank you very much for inviting us. We are delighted to be here to give this briefing and the written submission that we submitted previously. I am the chairperson of the Confederation of Ulster Bands, and I am joined by Codie Murray, the secretary, and William Bradshaw, a member of the committee. We want to give a little bit of background to the Confederation of Ulster Bands and then focus mainly on the sector itself. We are very aware that there are a lot of misperceptions and misunderstandings in relation to the marching bands, particularly if you are not directly involved. We want to try to enlighten a little bit on that.

The Confederation of Ulster Bands was formed in 2009 to try to represent marching bands. It is a completely voluntary body, as is the entire sector. Marching bands are completely autonomous. Every band is completely separate, and there is no overarching body with the exception of the Confederation of Ulster Bands. We represent all the bandsmen out there. There are 17 local band forums that represent their local area, and each of them has is represented on the committee. William, for example, is a representative of the Armagh bands forum, and Codie is a representative of the north Antrim bands forum. We have all sectors of the Province represented here today.

Marching bands are quite misunderstood. I will be quite honest and say that, if I were to ask any member of a marching band whether they consider themselves to be part of the arts community, they would say no. It is very interesting from reading your research that, when I was looking at the specific list of art forms included by the Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency (NISRA), it also does not include marching bands. If we can take the contentious, disputed or perceived issues with marching bands out of the equation completely and look at this completely neutrally, that is probably the best way to go.

We have here a body of approximately 30,000 people who are, week in and week out, sometimes twice a week, performing music to a very high standard and very high level. In the community, we have Irish champions, Ulster champions, British champions and world champions, all unrecognised generally by the wider community in Northern Ireland. When they compete on world stages, it is without dispute that they are among the best in the world. At the recent World Pipe Band Championships held in Glasgow, over half of the prizes across that entire sector came back home to Northern Ireland. There is no doubt about the high level of musicianship in the sector.

That is just the membership. I turn to the spectators involved in the sector. From reading some of the other submissions and briefings that you received, I noticed that some contributors were very delighted to receive 80,000 spectators to their events over an entire year. I can quite easily give examples of events held by this sector where there are approximately 3,000 performers at an event and over 10,000 spectators at an event. I can give five or six examples of that ranging across the Province from Markethill to Ballymoney, Cloughmills and Londonderry. Those are just examples off the top of my head that I scribbled down before we came in here. So, the numbers involved are astronomical. I think that it is quite easy to say that we are the largest single arts sector that is entirely voluntary. It would be very hard to dispute that.

The most well-known area that we are involved in is parades. There are something like 2,500 parades and events every year of this nature, and every marching band takes part in approximately 70 to 80 a year. If you consider that this is a completely voluntary sector, that means that every person is paying their own expenditure on travelling to these events and participating in them. In a moment, Codie will go through the way that funding is run for these events, both voluntary and from funding from other agencies. It is a very large dedication on the part of the performers.

Taking aside the parades and on-street activity, every year there are approximately 150 to 200 indoor events, which take part across the Province. It was very interesting to note in the research the list of venues considered to be arts venues throughout the Province. You have, for instance, the Ulster Hall, the Braid Arts Centre in Ballymena, the Island Arts Centre in Lisburn, the Riverside Theatre in Coleraine, the Waterfront hall in Belfast, the Roe Valley Arts and Cultural Centre, Ards Arts Centre, Carrickfergus Town Hall, the Theatre at the Mill, the Burnavon, Clotworthy Arts Centre, the Old Courthouse; and I could quite easily identify an event that has been held by a band at every single one of them.

They are held indoors, so there is no restriction, as there is with marching parades, on spectator attendance. Anyone can go along to any of the events, and they will find a performance of the highest calibre. I have been to many events. I recently watched the Christmas parade in London, where they had marching bands over from America. I can safely say that the standards on display at any of those events are of a higher calibre than what was evidenced in London.

The repertoire that the bands play is constantly changing. Each band must know a minimum of 30 to 40 tunes throughout the year. It changes every year; it is constantly refreshed. The pieces range from traditional Irish, Scottish and historical through to pop tunes, jazz, Mozart, classic and gospel. You would be really hard pushed to put a finger on any area of the musical repertoire that they do not touch on.

With regards to the social benefits that bands bring, they are proven to have a large effect on the mental health of their participants. For spectators, it reduces loneliness and improves the levels of community cohesion by even just attending the events. Every year, we hold an event in the Ulster Hall: the Festival of Marching Bands, in association with the 'News Letter'. Some of you may have attended that. The first year we ran it, we expected the audience to be members of the band community, but it was not. Of the 1,000 in attendance, approximately 80% were of the senior community, which is 60 and above. We were surprised by that.

If you attend any marching event, you will be interested in the range of spectators, which is from the very old to the very young, and the performers. Bands are probably the only art form where you can have an 80-year-old gentleman performing along with a four-year-old child. There is no restriction to age or gender. It is very disability-friendly; many bands have members who — I hope that I do not say this in the wrong way — are in wheelchairs or are incapacitated in some way. It is also racially inclusive; we have members from other communities as well as the white sector.

The work that it does is also very involved in the community. Last Christmas, for instance, a band from east Belfast presented gifts and Christmas cards to all the pensioners in its area. It was very inclusive. Some anecdotal evidence from spectators or even members and participants is that, sometimes, especially in rural communities, the band is the only form of socialisation that they may have. Sometimes, for the elderly, attending a band parade or event during the week is their only communication and comings and goings with any other people. They are living on their own the whole week, and it is their chance to get to meet other people. There are vast mental health benefits.

We have discovered that being involved the arts through music-making also increases motivation and further interest in other areas of the arts. We have many examples of that. For instance, 'The Pride' play by Blue Eagle Productions was specially commissioned in Londonderry. It combined professional actors and members of the band community performing for the first time. It did a Province-wide run, and was also part of the City of Culture up there. As well as that, three bands from Londonderry worked exclusively with composers Brian Irvine and Sid Peacock to create a new performance for the Music City day in the City of Culture.

The ways that the bands liaise and work with their communities is not exclusively in music-making. William is going to go into that a little bit more. Some bands have education and careers advisers to advise their youth. I have already mentioned the example of a band working very closely with their seniors in the community. There is a social commitment; bands take it upon themselves to clean up their local areas and river banks etc, and will do exercises such as that, all of which is voluntary.

There is a great physical element to it, not only for participants. When people decide that they no longer want to be in a marching band, they are still involved in the community and can get involved in a capacity of organising committees, marshalling groups etc, to assist the active band. We also have a great deal of evidence that portrays how bands can re-engage young people who have become disaffected and disengaged at school. They experience high levels of enjoyment, they increase inter-personal skills and relationship development and increased awareness of their cultural moral responsibilities and there is a reduction in the pull towards antisocial behaviour among the young people. William will stress, again, that approximately 50% to 60% of marching band participants are under 20 and male. Obviously, the majority of them are Protestant, which is the single hardest demographic for statutory bodies to engage with.

In general terms, we could safely say that the marching band sector exists very much on its own and is very self-sufficient, self-motivating and self-sustainable, with minimal interaction, I have to say, with the arts sectors generally or the Arts Council in any form other than through the statutory funding, which Codie will talk about.

I will hand over to Codie, who will talk about the financial and economic elements of the sector.

Mr Codie Murray (Confederation of Ulster Bands): Good morning. As Valerie mentioned, we believe that the band movement is the single largest arts sector in Northern Ireland. As such, you could extrapolate that funding to this traditional music sector would be largely based on the number of participants but, unfortunately, that is not the case when you look at it. There are only two main funding streams open to bands; that of the Arts Council of Northern Ireland's musical instrument scheme and the Ulster-Scots Agency's music and dance scheme. Of those two, only one is solely directed towards bands.

When we consider that the band movement addresses many of the key government commitments in relation to accessibility of the arts to the working-class communities and makes a meaningful contribution to social inclusion in such communities, it appears that funding to the sector does not match up with what is being achieved by the band movement.

DSD figures produced in a report on the traditional Protestant parading sector in Northern Ireland by RSM McClure Watters — and we have circulated copies to members — highlighted a social capital impact of £19·3 million a year by bands and an economic impact in Northern Ireland of £8·26 million. Funding from government sources from the two schemes I mentioned has a potential pot of only £400,000. The Arts Council of Northern Ireland musical instruments scheme has a potential pot of £200,000 set aside specifically for bands, with the possibility of £5,000 available per band. So, roughly, in any given year, 40 bands can benefit. However, with an exclusion of seven years between being eligible for funding, this rules out over 40% of bands from the scheme each year. No other Arts Council of Northern Ireland funding scheme has such a long exclusion criterion, and bands cannot access other Arts Council funding schemes because they are reminded of this scheme.

Let us look at the £200,000 that is set aside for bands. Most of you will probably know of the 13p for the Arts campaign, which looked at how much is given to the arts sector a week. It costs everybody 13p, but if you put that in perspective from a band's point of view, then only 0·2p a week goes towards a band; it would take five weeks to give 1p towards a band. Yet, the Arts Council recognises the band movement and that scheme as one of their most diverse schemes, with uptake across the Province and often in communities that it finds hard to reach for arts activities. We also know that, in the past, the organisation has tried to axe that scheme. We as a group believe that what they should do is try to increase engagement with working-class communities and, as such, increase that funding pot.

Musical instruments such as accordions or pipes can cost up to £2,500 per instrument, so, really, what you are buying is two instruments for every seven years. When you put that into perspective, then from a band's point of view that does not suffice. To encourage and engage participants in the working-class community, more equipment needs to be purchased and needs to be available, because most working-class people just cannot afford that sort of money to pay for the instruments.

The other main potential funding source for bands is the Ulster-Scots music and dance scheme, again, with a potential pot this year of £200,000. The scheme is open to every community group, not just the band movement. A specific amount within that is ring-fenced for dance, with the remaining available for music tuition. This year, the agency is funding 108 groups within the scheme and, of those, 50 are bands. You can do the maths and it works out that roughly £100,000 is being given to bands. That fund allows the groups to provide music tutors to teach students and helps to cover music exam fees associated with the instrument being learned. Both schemes are always oversubscribed, with demand always outstripping available funds.

If you combine those two schemes for an overall figure, this year it equates to around £300,000 that is being given to the largest traditional arts sector in Northern Ireland. If you also take the DSD figures, there is a combined figure of benefit to the community of £27·56 million. That means that there is a return on the government investment. For every £1 given to the band sector we generate an additional £91·86, a figure that we believe no other traditional arts sector is able to achieve, especially as nearly all of our members come from working-class communities.

Ms Quinn: William is going to talk about the membership of the marching bands, where we get our membership and the areas that they cover.

Mr William Bradshaw (Confederation of Ulster Bands): Good morning. Just to bring this part of our report to a conclusion, who are the people who are in bands? Where do they come from? By and large, the greater majority of the membership of bands across Northern Ireland is under the age of 35. The figures are that 30% of the males and 37% of the females who are in bands are actually under the age of 20. In contrast to many youth organisations and Churches that report falling attendances of youth, bands are actually increasing their membership year on year in a very important demographic — among the youth.

In terms of profession and background of those members in the bands, the bands encompass a wide variation of employability and career background, from professional status — we have doctors and solicitors who are members — but, predominantly, a lot of the membership comes from what we class as a working-class background and a rural background. Within that, there are clear divisions between the bands that feature predominantly male members from urban and inner-city areas and those from a more family-orientated background in rural areas, where we might have two or three generations of the same family making up the core of the band membership, hence the ability for an 80-year-old to be sitting with his grandchild in the same band.

There are a lot of strong family and community links within bands. Younger people look to the older people for peer leadership. There are a lot of other activities associated with band membership aside from the high quality of musicianship that is developed with the young people. That in turn promotes the sustainability of many bands, because those who were young people 20 or 30 years ago are now the leaders, teachers and mentors for the next generation; so, there are a lot of inherited and transferable skills aside from learning music. We now do a lot of training and outreach work on things such as drug and alcohol awareness, enhancing employability skills through teamwork, team building, confidence building and public speaking, and a lot of other things to do with compliance with legal issues around the charity legislation that is ongoing, vulnerable adults, child protection strategies and financial policies.

As for the terms of musicianship for the band, it is not, as is sometimes portrayed in the media, something that happens during the perceived marching season. Bands practise twice a week, 52 weeks of the year, never mind their public performances at indoor concerts, outdoor contests and the parades that they host and attend.

There would, I would say without contradiction, be no perception of band membership having a connection with or being part of the arts sector. They do not see the arts sector as something that they can relate to. They see the religious and cultural connections, but have no perception of the wider arts movement. That in turn is, unfortunately, reflected by the lack of engagement from some of the major arts bodies in understanding and dealing with bands or communicating the context and relevance of the music they perform to the wider arts sector.

I think that that covers most of what I want to say at this stage.

Ms Quinn: Just to finalise for everyone, I think it is very important that we as a movement and you as a Committee consider the marching bands as a very large music-making art form that is totally voluntary, rather than any of the other perceptions or misconceptions. There are no paid workers in the sector at any level. There are no paid members. There are no personal gains in any way, either financial or otherwise. It is fair to say that it has gone unrecognised widely, at every level, bar by the membership itself. Thank you for allowing us to be here today to say that.

Mr Hilditch: Thanks for the presentation and the comprehensive report that is before us. I declare an interest as patron of the Sir Henry Inglesby's fife and drum band and vice president of the Carrick, Whitehouse and Agnes Street brass band.

The indoor events are a fairly new concept, which I know of from the use of Carrickfergus town hall, for instance. We do not get a great opportunity for touring exhibitions or art, and the bands have filled a void over the course of 12 months. It really does take the whole sector into a 12-month period, rather than what used to be called the marching season. That is a big strain on the commitment of volunteers. Do you want to say something further about that?

Ms Quinn: Absolutely. Being involved in the whole sector is very intensive; it is a dedicated area. To be honest, the indoor sector is not anything new to members of the community. I have been involved with marching bands for approximately 25 to 30 years and have always been aware of it and involved. However, wider recognition is coming about now because we are trying to emphasise that it is not just a one-day-a-year or several-months-a-year hobby; it is a very integral part of people's lives. Some office bearers in the groups have compared it to a full-time job because it is so intensive and takes up so much of their time. Consider a normal band member, of any band, rural or urban. They practise one night a week, every week of the year, with the exception perhaps of two weeks at Christmas. You are allowed two weeks.

On top of that, if you are practising for a contest, for instance — I know of several bands that are practising for a contest in Carrickfergus that is happening at the end of February — you are practising two nights a week. During the months from September to March, you are usually performing another night a week at an event that you have been asked to, and, obviously, the more musically proficient you are, the more events you are asked to. Some bands that I can think of and that I am a former member of are out at least one night every week. So, that is three nights every week already. Then, the outdoor events take place from March to September approximately. When I say "outdoor events", I am not talking just about parades on the road. They also take part in festivals and Lord Mayors' parades, particularly in the rural areas. They take part in council events. They take part in the Milk Cup parades on the north coast. So, it is not just marching bands events.

I have to stress that marching bands are separate from the loyal order organisations. While there are approximately 1,000 loyal order parades throughout the year, which bands are obviously an integral part of, there are approximately 2,000 parades a year that marching bands organise and run totally themselves. Consider the event management that that incorporates and the onus that it places on people who are essentially volunteers doing this outside of their normal day-to-day stuff. That is a massive commitment, which they do not recognise themselves until they step back from it because it is what they have always done, what they have always been involved in, and what they love to do. They are very protective of it all because they are so heavily involved in it and so dedicated to it, all voluntarily.

Mr Hilditch: In addition to that, as you mentioned, is the cost of uniforms, transport and such things. The uniforms are of such a high quality and standard that they stand out and add to the spectacle of events. That must also come out of the participants' pockets.

Ms Quinn: It certainly does. Codie has already mentioned the official funding. You can see from the socio-economic impact report that I sent exactly how much the sector itself spends on uniforms. I will give some examples. Codie's band is in the process of buying uniforms — a very plain tunic and a jacket — for the year at a cost of approximately £20,000. That is nothing exorbitant — I can think of other bands that have spent in the region of £40,000 on uniforms.

Uniforms are completely excluded from any of the funding schemes, which are available only for instruments. As Codie said, you are talking about maybe two instruments every seven years. The other one is tuition, whereby you can bring in outside tutors. So, you are talking about £40,000 maybe. Bands are very particular and meticulous about the care of those uniforms. They are conscientious about renewing them every three to four years. That is the outlay that each individual band makes. The money comes entirely from band members and their local community. They will have fundraised extensively to raise that amount of money. As I said before, it is all self-sustaining.

The funding covers the initial purchase of instruments. However, those instruments get an awful lot of wear and tear throughout the year, so there are also very high maintenance costs, which is also reflected in the DSD study. Again, that is all self-funded by the sector. So, there is a very high financial input from the members in addition to the small amount of funding that they get. There is a £5,000 limit to each band every seven years.

Mr Hilditch: William, moving to the inquiry itself, you mentioned the difficulties with connections with the arts bodies. I tried to draw Comhaltas on it prior to you coming in, and I think that they were being a wee bit diplomatic.

Mr Bradshaw: I wear two hats in that: as well as being quite heavily involved in the bands sector, I am involved in quite a lot of grass-roots community activity. Whereas community groups around the Province have run arts activities and engaged with the Arts Council, the Community Forums on Arts Provision and different bodies and secured small amounts of money for arts projects such as craftworks, paintings, murals or mosaics, there is no enthusiasm or appetite among band members per se to recognise or understand that the quality of their musicianship, what they do, the pageantry and their pride in putting on the uniform and looking after it and their instrument, is part of the perceived arts sector. Some of that could be as a result of conditioning over the years and how the bands movement has been misportrayed or misperceived. A barrier to engagement has been set up.

Also, with the greatest respect, the major players in the arts sector tend to be based in one geographic locality that we are sitting in at the moment: Belfast. As you go further west in the Province, it falls away to nothing. Now, up in the Maiden City in Londonderry, there is engagement with various projects. However, there are large swathes of the rural, agricultural, working-class and commuter area, where people go from the rural areas to work wherever their employment takes them, that do not have that engagement, nor is there the same outreach from, or connection with, staff members in both the statutory and voluntary and community arts bodies, as they do not come out to meet any recognised band and discuss issues and barriers.

Ms Quinn: To reverse what William has said, while the band members do not recognise themselves as part of the arts sector, there is also very much a — I dread to say reluctance, but I just cannot think of another word at the moment. There is no engagement with the movement from the arts sector. They do not mention them on their websites. When there is an event to showcase Northern Ireland, they are not involved. Think of the large number of events that bring in various ethnic groupings and musical groupings; they do not include marching bands. There is a reluctance — perhaps it is an oversight — on behalf of the arts bodies to include them. Perhaps it is a sensitivity; I do not know the reasoning. There is not the same engagement coming from the Arts Council towards the sector that there is for various other groups, such as African drumming groups, that bands work with freely day in, day out. I can think of one band that is doing a project with an African drumming group at the minute. That African drumming group is very much included and welcomed by the arts community, whereas the band that is working with it is not.

Mrs McKevitt: I will start off by paying tribute to a band in my area. You have probably not heard of it, but we do great cross-community work together. It is the Commons Silver Band, which comes along to the turning on of our local Christmas tree lights every year. The band has an opportunity to play in its local townland, which is very important to the community, because, for years, they were not able to. So, a lot of doors have opened for marching bands. Altnaveigh House in Newry is listed as the Grand Lodge headquarters etc, and I see a lot of band events, as you describe them. What community engagements happen before a massive band event comes into an area where the doors might not be as open?

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): This is an issue that arose earlier when we were talking to the folks from Cultúrlann and got into diverse questions about the Irish language and a range of issues. Could we keep the focus very much on what can be done with these art forms to engage working-class communities? I just flag up that point.

Mrs McKevitt: My question stands.

Ms Quinn: OK. I can answer it very simply. I do not think that Christmas carols, to use your example, are exclusive to any sector of the community. I have listed the repertoire of music that bands play: jazz, gospel, pop, Mozart and both Irish and Scottish traditional.

Bands do not speak or sing. They do not have any words; they just have music. Bands' main method of communicating at any performance is their music. It is quite safe to say that music is without boundaries, borders and difference. I could safely recommend any indoor event or concert for you to see a full repertoire of music, from classics to modern to obscure jazz. That is probably the best way to look at the sector, rather than all the surrounding elements, which bands are not responsible for. Bands play music — that is the bottom line.

Mrs McKevitt: How would you encourage the community around the main hall that bands would be in to come and listen and observe the music that is produced?

Ms Quinn: Bands very frequently hold open nights in their local community, where their doors are open to anyone in the local community to come along and listen. Members of all communities are welcome to any events; there is no one saying, "I don't like the colour of your shoes. You can't come to this event". That is not the way it is. We are trying to entertain — that is the bottom line.

They also provide free music tuition, and this maybe answers your question. We are very aware that education boards are very fund-reduced. The tutors in the sector are very experienced; there is a great deal of musicianship and knowledge in the sector. We are looking at perhaps offering those services to education boards. We know of many bands that have gone into local schools and have offered their services in regards to six-week courses, for instance, on the b-flat flute, which is a very neutral instrument. It is involved very much in Irish traditional music, Scottish traditional music and across the sector. The Ulster-Scots Community Network (USCN) has established an Open College Network (OCN) level-2 qualification in b-flat flute. Currently, in various areas of the country, we are developing the idea of tutors from the marching bands going into schools and teaching the children to play an instrument that will encourage them to continue that music-making, much more so than the recorder.

Mrs McKevitt: I pointed out Altnaveigh House because it is a good cross-community building that is very much respected in our area.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): And it used to do a great Burns Night.

Mr Bradshaw: Sometimes, the context of where bands perform determines the audience that goes to see them. A band can take part in a band parade and be judged to be open only to one or other section of the community. Banbridge District Council hosts a well-known Sunday bandstand in the parks schedule, where a number of the local bands from Newry, the Armagh area, Dromore and Banbridge all take part and play in the bandstand in the gardens in Scarva. One of my friends plays in an accordion band in Armagh. They come down here to Sir Thomas and Lady Dixon Park and play at the concert on the Sunday. They can be openly watched, and their musicianship can be appreciated, down there. Sometimes, when they are taken out of that context and placed somewhere else, people have perceptions about who can go to see them; but, in actual fact, it is open.

There is somewhat of a slight embarrassment in many schools to make use of the young trained musicians they have. Several schools are sitting on a wealth of talent and could organise relatively quickly a good, high-quality orchestra from the musicians they have, but quite a lot of them prefer to teach the recorder or percussion instruments at the avoidance of other instruments.

Mr Ó hOisín: Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. I do not claim to be any expert on this subject, but I recognise the work of some of the bands that I am aware of, including Field Marshal Montgomery, which takes part in quite a number of cross-community festivals. Indeed, during my time as mayor in local government, whilst driving a 'Back to the Future' car, I led the Ardara flute band around my own town. They also go to Westport every year for St Patrick's Day. So, I am aware of some of the work that goes on. That having been said, the elephant in the room is still that many bands and many members of the bands forum are viewed as contentious, and those are the circumstances in which they are viewed. William, you are right to say that it is maybe partly about how they are perceived and whatever, and I take that on board. Is there any way that you have been addressing some of that contentious nature? There are a small number of parades and, indeed, a small number of bands that are questionable. It is about the engagement issue.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): I appreciate that, but the focus of the inquiry is the arts.

Mr Ó hOisín: OK, I will widen it out further, Chair. Valerie, you mentioned something called the white sector. I am not sure what that is. How many of these bands now are section 75-compliant? I ask that because they are getting public funding. How many are inclusive right across the community, including working-class —

Mr Murray: Anyone that gets funding —

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Can I also make the point that we are not here to cause an investigation by the Equality Commission, otherwise a certain organisation that requires all of its members to sign up to an aspiration for a united Ireland would not get a penny? You know the organisation that I am talking about. If you have not got any other questions —

Ms Quinn: Can I just answer that?

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): If you want to make a point, yes.

Mr Ó hOisín: Am I not allowed to ask the question, Chair?

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Questions should be around the issue, but Valerie has kindly agreed to answer.

Ms Quinn: We are happy to answer that. I can say categorically that, as part of the commitment of any of the bands that currently receive public funding, they are all section 75-compliant.

Mr Humphrey: At the outset, I will make the point that many, many bands are not contentious and do not take part in contentious parades. That is just nonsense.

I very much welcome the strategic plan; I think that that is a very positive development and shows the professionalism that there is in your sector. I also think that the Grand Lodge socio-economic impact report is a very good publication but that it is a bit conservative. Given some of the figures that John is talking about, it is way short of the reality.

You mentioned various shows across Northern Ireland. I know a number of leading bands in Northern Ireland, and I recognised a few faces from Northern Ireland not so long ago on a Saturday morning taking part in parades in London, as they do, including the Lord Mayor's Show, regularly. I am struck by the point that William mentioned and which you developed, Valerie. It is similar to what we heard from the Comhaltas groups that were represented. Basically, there is this idea that people who are involved in the band sector see themselves as being involved in cultural activity but not the arts. I think that that is the key and the hub of all of this work that we are doing. That is why I proposed that it should be done in the first place. We have had it expressed from across the community from a rural and urban context. I think that many people see themselves as being involved in cultural activity but not the arts. Even the term "arts" is an impediment to people getting involved in what is artistic activity. As a dummy fluter myself, that is not to take away from the level of activity that you guys are involved in. Can you expand on that?

Ms Quinn: Yes. I can quite easily say that, if you were to talk to any member of a marching band and went through the list, in your own research, of what they consider arts, you could very quickly knock 90% of them out as something that they would never aspire to attend or attend.

Opera, for instance, would be pretty low down in the percentages, as would Irish dancing and museums. They would probably be more interested in the museums because of the displays and exhibitions that museums put on, particularly in this decade of centenaries. Photography, poetry reading etc. That is their perception of the arts.

Your list of art forms very much reflects what they consider to be the arts, and it is very telling that the two of those match up. Not only is that perception there from the members of the band community; it is also there from the arts community. There has to be some positive engagement by the arts community to say that it considers it to be an art form and that they are performing music, which is a skill and which provides a valuable contribution to society and to them.

The bulk of our membership is working-class and, particularly in the case of the very strong bands, is from areas of social deprivation. Their opportunities to attend events, such as those that are listed on your list of art forms, are few and far between.

Mr Humphrey: I deliberately mentioned the Lord Mayor's Show in London, because it does not just draw from that city but, as the capital of the kingdom, brings in people who excel in the community and voluntary sector across the UK. It is a regret that the Lord Mayor in London has invited bands from Northern Ireland to take part in the Lord Mayor's Show, which is a hugely prestigious event, yet the Arts Council cannot mention the band sector in publications or have it take part in showcasing. That is an absolutely outrage and something that we should perhaps pursue.

I asked my next question about connectivity to the previous group. It is about getting people in the community to take part and get involved. I know that band parades are a huge issue on Friday and Saturday evenings in the summer and through to the autumn and that helps to get people involved, and I am also aware that a lot of charity work goes on. Does that help you to bring into the sector people who would not join the band but who would be supportive and to get them involved in street art, which is what it is effectively? The pinnacle of that is, of course, the Twelfth.

Ms Quinn: Absolutely. If a marching event is taking place in a town, no barriers are put up at the entrances to the town; anyone can spectate. I can think of many bands whose income from a parade, which is, in many cases, their sole income throughout the year, is donated straight to charity. That charity does not have criteria for where that funding goes. So, with spectating, participation and where that funding goes to, particularly with charity donations — approximately £600,000 a year is donated by bands to charities — there is total inclusivity with no restrictions.

There are numerous marching bands in the Republic of Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales. We also have marching band members in Australia and America. In countries like Germany, there is the equivalent. Members from Northern Ireland have participated in parades in Germany and Austria in exactly the same scenarios and environs that they would participate in here. However, there are not the external and surrounding complications. It is quite interesting to watch a band parade in Austria or Germany and see the entire community loving it and to hear exactly the same musical standards — they are sometimes better here — and performances as there are here.

Mr Humphrey: I know that you have big band parades like Kilkeel and Dunloy. Drum in County Monaghan is another one. I have been to all of those. You mentioned the Festival of Marching Bands. The standard in the Ulster Hall this year was very high. My colleague Diane Dodds and I were there. The standard of music, deportment and discipline was first class. Every one of the bands was excellent. However, communitising is the key to the thing. There are 35,000 members. I have been impressed by some of the activity that I have seen in the bands that you guys, and other people like Quincey Dougan and Nigel Kells, are involved in. The band is hugely important in capacity building and improving the competencies within the community — the sort of things that you were talking about, William. Is that building up the credibility of the bands in working-class communities? It happens particularly in the urban context that I have been talking about; does that happen in a rural context as well?

Mr Murray: I can answer that on behalf of the North Antrim Bands Forum. We run courses on reading and writing, because a lot of our members left school with no formal qualifications. They were not engaged with the education establishment. We also run IT courses. There are other things along the way. Not everybody who is involved in the band section is involved in the music. There is a marshalling team and a first-aid team. All of that is very much based on each forum working with the local communities to identify who would like to participate and learn the skills and building those up, so that, when we are parading indoors or outdoors, it is not just the band that is on parade but all the infrastructure that goes with it. That whole infrastructure also comes from the working-class community.

As to your earlier point, William, the Arts Council itself has yet to recognise that we are the largest traditional arts movement out there. If you read the Arts Council's annual reports, you find no reference, or very little, to bands. There is that whole perception from the working-class community that it is easy to identify ourselves along the cultural route, as opposed to the arts, because nobody within the arts movement recognises the band movement, as things stand.

Mr Humphrey: Let me make this point, Chairman. How on earth can we expect working-class communities — in this context, the working-class Protestant community — to buy into what we have heard from the establishment, such as the Arts Council, if it is not even prepared to mention that culture in its publications? The truth is that the establishment can come and give evidence at this Committee but, if it cannot back it up by actually recognising that the tradition even exists, never mind give it recognition, that is a serious issue and one which we need to pursue.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): I will just follow up on the point that William Humphrey has made. My understanding is that — looking at cultures, traditions and art forms across the world — in addition to the engagement with the Arts Council, which is our cultural establishment or whatever, two of the other areas are these: it needs to be in the schools, and it needs to be in the media. If you are not in the school, you are not valued, because the school system — there is plenty of academic evidence for this — is seen as endorsing, valuing and validating. That is what schools do: they teach things of value. If you are excluded from the school, you are automatically devalued by the education system. The public service broadcasters are required to reflect all the cultural traditions and cultural diversity of the United Kingdom, and yet, apart from the sporadic and abusive hatchet-job programme — done by some person who flies in and flies out, and exploits people and abuses them, quite frankly — there is not the reflection and inclusion by the public service broadcaster in the way that, maybe, Gaelic cultural traditions are included. How do you feel about those two points?

Ms Quinn: We have been trying to get into schools. We have been trying to slowly advance that since the formation of CUB in 2009. We recognise that, in order to get into schools, you have to have an across-the-board approach and be able to present and deliver standards and — this is key — assist in the education prospects of the children.

That is why we have worked closely with the Ulster-Scots Community Network to develop the OCN level 2, which is a comprehensive 20-week course. We are very much prepared to work with the USCN and the education boards to deliver that to schools on a voluntary basis. In the band forums throughout the Province, tutors have already qualified through the OCN course. We are quite happy to go into schools and provide those tutors free of charge and, in some cases, provide the instruments free of charge. At the end of it, we will deliver an OCN level 2 to their pupils. However, we are finding the same restrictions that I know other organisations from the perceived Protestant/unionist/loyalist community have found. There is a reluctance, particularly by state-run schools — sorry, is that the controlled or maintained sector? I cannot remember.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Controlled.

Ms Quinn: There is a reluctance to engage in the controlled sector, but that does not happen to the same extent in the maintained sector. The maintained sector is more approachable and open, which is quite remarkable. I think that that is because the maintained sector is open to traditional arts and music and considers it in the same manner. That answers the question about schools: we are very willing to work in schools, but we find that there is a reluctance to engage.

The second side of the issue is the media. You are totally right: there is a lack of engagement, unless it is a big news story and a negative one. We consistently approach the media and say, "What about all the good news stories from this sector? You want to focus only on the bad news and contentious issues. What about all the good news coming from this community?" The sad fact is that the media today are focused on bad news.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Will you remind me whether the BBC has ever televised the Festival of Marching Bands in the Ulster Hall?

Ms Quinn: Absolutely not.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Never?

Ms Quinn: The only way that we can have even a spread of that performance — it has been running for five years now, and I am involved in organising it — is to pay for a video team to record it. The 'News Letter' then sells it on and profits from it. There is no profit whatsoever to the sector from the Festival of Marching Bands.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Those are two hugely important points about the media and schools, which also cross over into the work of the Education Committee. I raised the issue yesterday in the Education Committee. Earlier, a member mentioned section 75 and equality issues. There are also human rights issues. The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child states that every child in the education system has the right — not just the opportunity, but the right — to learn about the culture of the individual child and the home and community from which he or she comes. The United Kingdom is a signatory to that convention. The Department of Education, therefore, has a responsibility, at the Northern Ireland level, to address that. There is something in that convention about a denial of human rights to children from that community who are not given the opportunity to bring that culture. Your point about the difference between controlled and maintained schools is hugely important, because the controlled sector has a different view of culture to the maintained sector. That is not entirely true, because in my area, the Boys' Model School has an excellent flute band and, out at Glengormley, there are Lambegs and fifes in the school, but it is not a marching band. Those are good examples. I think that, as a Committee, we should be looking at the cultural rights of the community.

Our time is under pressure.

Mr B McCrea: I return to the topic of working-class engagement. I will leave the human rights bit out of it. Recently, I have listened to some people who have come before the Committee who seem to be remarkably defensive. I notice in your submission that the DCAL report suggests that a reimaging programme is required. In your opening statements, you said that you thought that you were perhaps misunderstood. Would you elaborate a wee bit on that for me?

Ms Quinn: Absolutely. I get this everywhere we go. I am often accused of being on a soapbox when I start to talk about this, and I am not surprised that we are pressured for time. People in the sector are very aware of the levels of commitment and dedication involved, but, once you step outside that, unless you have been personally involved in a marching band, you are not aware of it. It is very much a part of the community, and it is just what they do. Even the members themselves accept that that is what they do. I think that we suffer from a focus, particularly in this generation, of "it has always been there, and it is always going on". There is no recognition of it, because it is not new, it is not the latest craze, and it is not a new-fangled idea. When it comes to media reimaging, these are all working people. We are all voluntary; we had to take time off work today to attend the Committee. It is very difficult for people to do this and have the required skills outside of their jobs.

Mr B McCrea: You said a couple of times that people in marching bands do not consider themselves to be in the arts or culture. People make declarations of interest, so I will make a declaration of non-interest in that I am not a member of the loyal orders or involved in any way, shape or form in that. However, I have attended — I do not know whether anybody else has — the World Championship Flute contest in Armagh, when Kellswater beat Ballygowan for the first time in ages. I listened to concert flute bands, and I had never been to such a concert before. A bloke sits in the middle with a curtain around him so that he does not know who is playing. The standard was fantastic.

Why did I go to that event? I went because I happened to meet some people at the BBC Proms who told me that they were from Ballygowan Flute Band and were world champions. I went to see them in Armagh, and they were no longer the world champions, so that was not so good. I just said to them that I did not think they were selling it properly. As someone who is sympathetic but comes from outside, I think that there is a danger that you are just talking to yourselves or to people in here who all agree with you. I am a proud supporter of the Ormeau Concert Band, the Aughnaskeagh Silver Band, the Baillies Mills Accordion Band and the Ballygowan Flute Band. I have even had the Field Marshal Montgomery Pipe Band up here. You get to understand that these are real people, and, when you get to know them, they are fantastic.

There is a great job for you to do in outreach to other working-class people. I absolutely understand that you do a great job in our own community, as it were, but I will just ask you whether you think that your submission could be perceived in a more difficult way. It states:

The militaristic aspect could be misconstrued by people who are not intimately involved with the marching band process.

Ms Quinn: I think that any misconstruction could come with an agenda. Maybe I could use a different terminology, but I was in a marching band for a long number of years, and we very much prided ourselves on our marching and discipline skills and spent an awful lot of time perfecting that. I will give you two examples: you could have a marching band shambling down the road, and, when the parade halts, as always happens, it shambles to a stop, everybody stops at different times and in different steps, and the band members stand and look around them and so on; or you could have a band that, with the precision of an army unit, halts exactly to a non-verbal command given by its drum major. That is very impressive. It is symbolic of the dedication that has gone into achieving that high level. One marching band sector member is one of the head drum majors in the British Army and next week is going to Washington and another big city in the United States — I cannot remember the name — to give talks on the inclusion of army marching bands. It is regularly said that the decorum and marching and discipline skills in marching bands in Northern Ireland are on a par with, if not sometimes above, those of —

Mr B McCrea: I do not know whether you have ever been to the St Patrick's Day parade in New York, where you see bands marching in a militaristic fashion. You were talking about culture, but people do not realise that the St Patrick's Day parade did not come from the Irish tradition; it came from the British —

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Basil —

Mr B McCrea: Hold on a tick, Chair. I am developing an argument and am engaging with this, and I want to ask a few questions. You have given people from other places lots of latitude.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): As long as people stay on the subject, which is not the history of St Patrick's Day in New York. I am well aware that it has had a staunch Irish tradition; we all know that in this place.

Mr B McCrea: It is about understanding, Chair, how we extend the excellent work that the Confederation of Ulster Bands does with working-class people to other areas. I want to develop that line of argument, and I do not think that there is a problem with that.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Stay on the subject, Basil. That is the only point I make.

Ms Quinn: Could I pick up on that point and refer back to one of your earlier points? Chair, it also links in closely with your point. You are talking about trying to spread the good news. One of our main difficulties is getting engagement from the media. All the marching bands submit details of their events to the local media, but they will not include the bands. The bands submit good news stories, and they are not included either. We have lots of anecdotal evidence for that. Quincey Dougan, who was mentioned earlier, writes a weekly column for the 'News Letter', and it took an awful lot of time and hard work to get that established. I write a weekly column for our local paper on the north coast, and it is completely voluntary. There is another paper down in the Kilkeel/Newry direction that does the same, and again it is completely voluntary. The only way we can get the good message out is by writing the columns ourselves without payment. Our method is doing the media's work for them to get these articles into the papers, because the media will not engage. I have spoken to many independent production companies with a view to making programmes on the marching sector, and they have submitted those ideas to the BBC, but the BBC is not interested. However, BBC figures show that the Twelfth programme that is broadcast every year has the highest viewing figures for a local production in Northern Ireland. This is regardless of what time it is broadcast, given that — I always find this inconceivable — the programme goes out when the people who are involved in it and want to see it are not in the house. The BBC is unwilling, however, to extend that coverage and to help us to get the good news out there. It is very difficult for us to overcome. Secondly —

Mr B McCrea: There is obviously a failure in communication somewhere. As I said, I am totally impressed at all levels. I watched the World Pipe Band Championships in Glasgow one or two weeks ago, and, frankly, it was not a patch on what happens here. There is a way of building allies, because there is an issue with differentiating the bands. There is real misunderstanding, partly because what you do in other areas is very visual. You have to understand that there is a way of explaining to people what you do and why it is so good. People look at Swiss drummers with their perfect timing and say that their performance is really good.

We have gone on a long time, but I am happy to engage with you. There is a feeling that the people who are not intimately involved in marching bands are not the proper people to come before the Committee. However, I think that we need to take advice and information from people who are not as closely involved but are well intentioned. That is how you need to look at the matter. There is a load of things we could talk about. I spoke earlier to people about being careful about the imagery they inadvertently use. There is a difference between saying to people to go and see a band and actually welcoming them. Maybe we need to address that.

Ms Quinn: There is a tendency, because of continual criticism in the media, not to blow your own trumpet, if I may use a colloquial phrase. It is very difficult sometimes. I spoke about the level of dedication involved in running these organisations. It is very difficult to ask a working man who is already showing this level of dedication to work out of hours on a full-blown media campaign.

Mr B McCrea: The three of you are very articulate and impressive. I congratulate you. I will finish on this before the man at the front shouts at me. You have a really good thing going here, but we need to have a discussion. You need to understand that preaching to the converted does not work; you need to speak to people who are interested.

Ms Quinn: That is what the Confederation of Ulster Bands is about: spreading the message. However, I want to remind you at this point — this is not a negative, by any means — that we are all working people. The Confederation of Ulster Bands receives no funding from anybody. Any work that we do is on a purely voluntary basis outside working hours. We have been going for five years, and what we have achieved to date in the DCAL study, the DSD study and even in the work that we are doing here today is all on a voluntary basis. That will get you only so far. You are totally correct to say that we need to spread that message further, but we are almost getting to the limit of what the Confederation of Ulster Bands can do as a voluntary organisation. We are quite happy to continue with that method, because all of us passionately believe in and support that. That passion exists throughout the sector. However, media campaigns and lobbying become very difficult when you are restricted to working on a voluntary basis.

Ms McCorley: Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. Thank you for the presentation. How do you reach out to the nationalist community, given that, in some areas, certain band parades are contentious? What is your outreach programme to break down the misunderstandings?

Ms Quinn: Our outreach programme is varied, because, obviously, of the different climates in different areas. One recent example is the heavy involvement of marching bands from the area in the City of Culture in Londonderry. Marching bands took part in the fleadh in Londonderry, and the figures from the review of the entire year of marching bands identified that as one of the most positive and widely appreciated events of the City of Culture. This engagement goes on regularly without any focus. The level of day-to-day engagement, without any focus, is probably underestimated. It is normal day-to-day activity. One of the key things that we need to achieve in the marching band sector is the normalisation of the sector so that it is no longer a big thing to be in a marching band, and it is perceived no differently from being a member of a GAA club, an Irish dancing class or a highland dancing class.

It is an art form. You are engaging in it on a day-to-day basis. It makes no difference to your work colleagues, your friends or your family that you are in a marching band. That is key to the normalisation of the sector.

Ms McCorley: That might go on in some places — the Derry example is very good — but in places like north Belfast there are huge issues. What is going on in that area? How does the activity of bands nightly at Camp Twaddell —

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Sorry, I am going to cut in there.

Ms McCorley: My point, Chair —

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): I am chairing the meeting. We go so far, and then we get away from the core issue, which is how we can make sure that working-class communities are included in the arts. We can move on to other things, as happened previously in other cases, as I said, and we had to pull it back. I appreciate the fact that there are all sorts of issues, but if we get into detailed discussions of our questioning about that — we also still have to get a presentation by Foras na Gaeilge and by DCAL. We have time pressure as well, so I would prefer you just to stick to —

Ms McCorley: I accept your point, Chair, but I ask you to bear with me, because the question that I am developing may be central to that exclusion. It is about how we can help to move forward in contentious situations. I am actually talking about the nightly band parades at Camp Twaddell and the incident outside St Patrick's chapel, which were offensive.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Sorry, I am going to stop you.

Mr Humphrey: Chairman, I am happy to raise the issue of Sinn Féin organising activist residents groups that are out to take offence at the drop of a hat, if we are going to go down that route.

Ms McCorley: When you are in front of the Committee —

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Sorry, Rosie McCorley, I am asking you to be quiet while I make the point. If we start going down that road, we will get into the whole issue about what happens when a particular parade is attacked and so on. I have to say, quite frankly, I think it is disrespectful to the people who are here and unnecessarily divisive, but it is not surprising that we are down that road. I suggest that you get back to the issue. We are carrying out an inquiry into the inclusion in the arts of working-class communities. The very thing that we have been talking about — normalising — is not helped by that sort of question. If you have a question about the issue, please ask it, otherwise we will move on to Oliver McMullan.

Ms McCorley: I am asking about bands and the behaviour of bands —

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): We are not here to discuss that. It is in front of us. Sorry, you do not have anything to ask so we will move on. Oliver McMullan.

Ms McCorley: I would like my question answered.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Well, I would like a question that is specifically — I made the point, because, as Mr Humphrey said, we will then start into a discussion about issues that members of your own party may not wish us to get into, so, please. You have made your point in a general way without getting into the detail of a particular situation. We will let Valerie make her response, and then we will move on.

Ms Quinn: I am quite happy to address that. I think your question drives back to what I said at the beginning. This sector of the community suffers from, first of all, everything that goes on around it, which is not directly related to the business of bands, which is making music. Secondly, it also suffers from the other point that I mentioned — the media does not want to know about a good news story. The incidents that you are talking about are what they consider a hot topic and a negative news story and, therefore, are the focus. What they are not focusing on are the other layers of engagement that are positive in those same areas. In order to comment completely on the question that you asked we would need to look not only at those areas and instances that you have highlighted, which are in the media, but all the incidents that are not highlighted in the media, which we do not all have an awareness of but which are positive and which can help to outweigh the negative perceptions and publicity around certain events.

For every negative there is also a positive, and it is key that we consider those when looking at the marching bands because we are all made very aware of the negatives as a result of the media coverage. However, because it is very difficult to build relationships and work on areas of difficulty in a media forum, those are purposely either kept from the media or not reported by the media. An awful lot of good work is going on in those areas. I am not fully aware of the details of it, and I am sure that the Committee is not fully aware of it either. It would be very unfair to comment on the negatives without also taking the positives into consideration.

Mr McMullan: Thank you for your presentation. Would you agree that, over the past few years, you have received substantial funding from the Ulster-Scots Agency, the Arts Council and the Department?

Mr Murray: The answer is no. This year, we are pulling in £300,000 a year, which, as I say, is roughly 1p for every person for five weeks.

Ms Quinn: If you take into consideration that there are approximately 633 marching bands of the Protestant persuasion —

Mr McMullan: That is what I was going to ask you, if you do not mind me interrupting you. You say that there are 600 or so bands. Do you apply collectively or do the bands apply individually?

Ms Quinn: They apply individually.

Mr McMullan: So, that £300,000 is counted up individually?

Mr Murray: Yes. Two schemes are available. There is the Arts Council one, which is a pot of £200,000. Roughly 40 bands get it, because you can get £5,000 per band, but that excludes you for the next seven years. Then, there is the Ulster-Scots Agency fund for music and dance. It is open to all groups, not just bands. Any community groups can and do apply. Of those, only 50 bands have been funded this year. Again, the scheme is oversubscribed. The agency just does not have enough money to support all bands and community groups that wish to avail themselves of that scheme.

Ms Quinn: May I also point out that we are here to represent bands of the Protestant unionist community. The funding schemes are also open to bands of the nationalist Ancient Order of Hibernians (AOH) community as well. They regularly subscribe to that funding. It is not really just for the bands that we represent.

Mr McMullan: I know that.

Ms Quinn: It is for all. So, when you take the approximately 633 bands that receive the funding that Codie was talking about and divide the £200,000 per year by the maximum of £5,000, 40 bands a year out of that 633 are all that get funded. I do not know what the percentages are. There is no guarantee that those 40 bands are purely bands that we represent from the Protestant unionist and loyalist (PUL) community.

Mr McMullan: Just as with organisations in the nationalist community, you would then have to find out how many actually applied for the funding. I sat on a body a short time ago, and that was one of the questions. How many out of those 600 would have applied for funding?

Mr Murray: Because of the way in which the Arts Council scheme works, 280 or thereabouts are always excluded because, once you are awarded, you cannot apply within another seven years. That rules out roughly 40% of all bands that cannot apply at any given time. Year on year, that scheme is always oversubscribed.

Mr McMullan: That is fair enough.

Mr Murray: I do not have the exact numbers.

Mr McMullan: I was interested in your OCN course. What does that contain?

Mr Murray: That is basically a level-2 qualification in the Open College Network on how to learn the B-flat flute.

Mr McMullan: So, it is music.

Mr Murray: It is a music qualification. In the past, pipe bands would already have had a recognised qualification. Up until this point, the vast majority of people in bands tend to be flute and drum players because of the cost. Up until very recently, when the Ulster-Scots Community Network introduced this, there was no recognised B-flat flute qualification.

Ms Quinn: It is very cleverly designed. What we tend to find in the marching band sector is that there is a mixture of abilities and knowledge. You have some children and members who are able to read music notation. You also get members who learn by what we call the numbering system, in other words, six fingers, five fingers or four fingers. The course is very cleverly designed to cater for both of those ranges in the way that it is laid out. The music includes things like Burns pieces. I cannot remember —

Mr Murray: Gospel tunes.

Ms Quinn: 'Amazing Grace' and things like that.

Mr Murray: Nursery rhymes.

Ms Quinn: They are all very simple, but of a certain standard to which education would subscribe.

Mr McMullan: I was looking at the good relations policy. I see that you helped fund a football pitch. Where was that?

Ms Quinn: Bear in mind that that incorporates the Orange Order and the bands. It was in Markethill.

Mr Murray: Burnside in Antrim would be the closest one, Oliver.

Mr McMullan: Do you agree with the Chair when he talks about human rights: the right to learn and the cultural rights of the child?

Ms Quinn: Very much so. I will give you an anecdote from my family. My family are involved with a local band, Ballyrashane Protestant flute band. It was formed over 107 years ago, and my great grandfather was one of the founding members. My grandfather was in the band, my father was in the band, my brother was in the band and, to my great disgust, I was not allowed to join. My son is now in the band.

Mr McMullan: Why?

Ms Quinn: Because it is a traditionally male band.

Mr McMullan: Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Ms Quinn: I actually agree with that now. My son has been in the band since he was two and a half. My son knows absolutely nothing about religion. My son knows absolutely nothing about any of the conflict that goes on in the country.

Mr McMullan: That is good.

Ms Quinn: He thoroughly enjoys it.

Mr McMullan: That is good to hear. You talk about cultural rights. Is that a broad spectrum of cultural rights, or is it centred around music only?

Ms Quinn: It depends on the person's interest. My son currently is there only because of the music. How he personally wants to develop after that is entirely up to him. The marching bands do allow you the opportunity to find out more about your history and culture. Because I am very heavily involved in the Ulster-Scots movement, he is finding out about that through his performances. I am not sure in what other arts sector, on a voluntary basis, a four-year-old would be able to develop the confidence and musical ability to sit on stage in front of 500 or 600 people and confidently perform a solo.

Mr McMullan: Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann has the same structure with the same age group.

I was very interested in what you were saying, Chair, about the cultural rights of the child. Would you expand that to a child's right to the Irish language, under the cultural rights of the child in the European charter?

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): I am more than happy to do that.

Mr McMullan: Very good. I am happy to hear that.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): We will do this on another occasion. Children have the opportunity to learn Irish in maintained schools and Irish-medium schools. The point is that other cultural traditions are excluded. There is already provision there.

Mr McMullan: I was just —

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Absolutely.

Mr McMullan: I was just wondering because of your headlines in the paper that the Irish language is going.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): I am absolutely happy to deal with that. We have been flexible with what people have raised, but that is way outside it. Thank you very much, Oliver, for your questions.

Mr Dunne: Apologies for missing your presentation. I congratulate you on your good work. I think that you provide an invaluable service to the local community. You obviously appreciate the intolerance issue, which we have seen demonstrated here today. It is worked out in the community and on the streets. An organisation like yours does a lot to try to manage the situation, and we very much appreciate that. I take your point about the media coverage. Any media coverage seems to be negative. That needs to be addressed. The media needs to start to be balanced and constructive about the work that you do. It is a two-way street. We are fully supportive of what you do.

Finally, what more can be done to bring young people in? What about involvement with schools or youth groups? I know that you do a lot of that, but what more can be done to try to broaden your appeal to more young people? What you do is positive. You engage with young people and show them many skills, as you demonstrate in your document. That is good and something that is lacking in a lot of our communities.

Ms Quinn: I think it is very cyclical. No mother is going to want their child to join an organisation that is demonised and seen only as negative in the media. By addressing that, that helps encourages mothers to let their children join organisations such as ours. From personal experience, I would never have had the experiences, the networking, the people I have met and the friends that I have made without the marching bands sector. I am sure that William and Codie can say the exact same. I would never have had those experiences or learnt the skills that I have learnt through my involvement. I am personally very happy to let my child be involved with marching bands because I am aware of the good work that they do.

However, as I said, if we can tackle the negative media perception and demonisation that happens to marching bands and achieve that normalisation of the sector, that would stand us in good stead to build on the very good work that we do. I will point out that we are, without doubt, the one arts sector that strongly represents and engages in the youth community, particularly the male youth community in those age groups. In our submission we printed the figures showing membership of our bands and the percentages of male and female. You will see that it is very strong from the age of four right up to the age of 35.

Mr Dunne: OK; well done. Thanks very much.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): For the very final question, William Humphrey.

Mr Humphrey: It is not a question, Chair. A number of members have raised the issue of the media, as have you in your presentation. A member of the Church of Ireland clergy contacted me on behalf of a band from County Tyrone that took part in a programme called 'Nolan and Hector Break for the Border', which was a joint BBC/RTÉ programme. They did an interview for a considerable length of time, and they had a hatchet job done on them.

Ms Quinn: Absolutely.

Mr Humphrey: That band was totally let down by that. I asked for and got a meeting with the controller of BBC Northern Ireland. With that sort of thing, when people are putting themselves up to talk about their cultural expression, to be belittled and ridiculed in such a way is just off-putting and adds to the demonisation that has been going on for some time. It perpetuates the intolerance and ignorance issues.

Ms Quinn: I am very aware of that issue. When you feel that you are going to be demonised and misinterpreted, with misperceptions almost validated, it becomes very difficult to persuade members of the marching band community to continue to engage in that way. It is something that we are continually working with and encouraging, but incidents like that definitely do not help us.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Thanks very much indeed.

Mr Bradshaw: I will quickly add two points in turn, which relate to the questions about outreach work. Last year, shortly, after the new archbishop of the Church of Ireland came into office, the Armagh bands forum met him and gave a personal presentation of the work of the bands forum and the outreach work that we propose to do. In more recent times we have been meeting the good relations officers of — for the moment — Armagh council to develop some sort of pilot strategy to do outreach work both in schools and with communities at large. That is kind of in limbo at the minute because, post 1 April, we will obviously be dealing with new staff in the new Armagh, Banbridge and Craigavon (ABC) Council.

Mr Humphrey: I think we should commend the Church of Ireland on the support that it has given to the Zacchaeus project, which, of course, is led by Valerie Thom, doing great work with bands at large demonstrations and parades.

Mr Ó hOisín: Chair, can I just say that I think the opportunity to challenge some of the negativity was lost today, because some of us were gagged from asking our questions? Can I put that on record, please?

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): We will not deal with the issue of negativity today, because that is —

Mr Ó hOisín: I think it is an opportunity missed.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): That may be your view, but we have a remit within which this inquiry operates, which is about inclusion and helping people in working-class communities to be included in the arts. The information has been extremely helpful. I appreciate that, and I am sure that it will feed into the final recommendations from the Committee. Thank you.