Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Swann): I welcome Ms Claire Keatinge, the Commissioner for Older People, and Dr Ben Harris, policy and research officer. Claire and Ben, you are very welcome this morning. Over to you.

Ms Claire Keatinge (Commissioner for Older People): Thank you very much and good morning, colleagues. To those we have not seen yet a happy new year. I have a nice opportunity today, and I hope that it will be one that transforms some of your thinking about older people in the workforce and older people's right to work, as well as older people's right to retire from work.

Northern Ireland has a growing older population. More and more older people are living longer and healthier lives, and that is very good news indeed. The state pension age is increasing over time, and more older people wish to continue to work, for a variety of reasons, including financial necessity as well as the contribution they are still able to make, changing careers and jobs, the pleasure of working in company and that sense of making a contribution. However, there continue to be ageist attitudes from employers and a lack of promotion of the contribution of older workers through government policy. We are missing an opportunity for the economy to grow significantly by the retention, retraining and recruitment of older workers.

I want to deal with what is called the lump of labour fallacy — the idea that there is a fixed pool of jobs and that, if we continue to support older workers or further develop the retention of older workers, it somehow disadvantages younger workers. It does not. There is not a fixed pool of jobs. We have a shortage of skilled labour, and we have a large number of older people who leave the workforce early for a number of reasons, including caring responsibility and ageist attitudes. If they have a significant and real opportunity to retrain or remain in work, the economy stands the very best chance of growing. It is an economic argument as well as a rights-based argument for older people.

Thank you very much for the invitation to present to you the findings of the report 'Valuing an Ageing Workforce'. It follows a commitment that I made in my first corporate plan — which I called 'Hope, Confidence, Certainty' — to lead a debate among employers and older people about what is needed to support older people to either find or stay in work, and to publish and provide information for employers, older people and policymakers on the findings. It is in that role that I will be making comment today.

There are so many positive opportunities that are associated with older people having more support to stay in work or obtain work. In 'Valuing an Ageing Workforce' I outline the economic, social and health benefits for Northern Ireland if more older workers have and retain more employment opportunities. The truth is that older workers provide a wealth of experience, knowledge and commitment, with strong business incentives to keep their expertise in the workplace. There would be a very strong economic benefit to Northern Ireland if employment rates among older people were to rise. In fact, if older people's employment rates could increase in line with long-term UK trends, economic output would be £2·3 billion higher by 2037 — 4·4% higher than if the employment rates of those aged over 65 remained at the 2013 levels. Simply increase the proportion of older people who are in work, and economic output has a significant and real opportunity to grow.

The demographics of Northern Ireland, which I am sure you are familiar with, show quite clearly that older people will continue to make up an increasing proportion of our population. By 2037, the population aged 15 to 64, which is often referred to as traditional working age, is set to fall by almost 2% relative to 2013, so our traditional working-age population is falling. The population aged over 65 is expected to rise by 75·1%. That is a significant shift in the age structure of the population, which will have a direct impact on the economy unless the labour market participation of the over-65s increases. If current employment rates by age remain the same, the total numbers in employment will stagnate, and they will then fall at the same time as the overall population increases. The DEL labour market bulletin states very simply that Northern Ireland's lower overall employment rate than the UK can be wholly attributed to lower employment rates among older people in Northern Ireland compared to UK averages. Those rates are a major impediment to reducing unemployment and a major impediment to growing the economy.

It is often suggested — and it is deeply ageist and deeply offensive to older people — that rising youth unemployment has somehow been caused by the rising employment among older people or by the fact that there are more older people in our population and that, somehow, those older people crowd out their younger counterparts. There is little or no academic evidence to indicate that that is the case. Indeed, the academic evidence clearly suggests the contrary. Increased employment amongst older age groups is associated with greater youth employment and reduced youth unemployment.

The crowding-out argument is clearly based on the premise that there is a fixed number of jobs in the economy. That is an argument described by a number of leading economists as the lump-of-labour fallacy. Economists disagree and say that there is not a set amount of labour, because, over time, the number of jobs will change in line with technological improvements, and that will help provide new products and services, raise national income and increase the demand for labour throughout the economy. There is not a fixed pool of jobs. We are missing opportunities by retaining ageist attitudes and practices that discourage and drive older people out of the workforce.

I very much welcome the way that the Minister for Employment and Learning and his Department have demonstrated positive attitudes and engagements with the recommendations of the 'Valuing an Ageing Workforce' report. There are many recommendations that are relevant to DEL and some that require further consideration and, in my view, implementation. Those recommendations clearly fall into two camps — government and policy, and employers.

In terms of government, policymakers have to reduce the extent to which retirement is a cliff-edge matter, so you get to a certain age and you stop working. The policy of a fixed state pension age — which, as we all know, is increasing over time — is likely to continue for the foreseeable future, but it would be very useful for the Northern Ireland Executive to ensure that there are greater incentives for people to work beyond that age. The phasing out of default retirement age was a very good start, but creative policy measures are needed to boost the workforce participation of older people.

The public generally, of all ages, coming up towards and thinking about a retirement age and state pension, need to be much clearer about what their state pension entitlement will be. We have seen reports recently in the press that only around 50% of people coming towards the new single-tier pension will actually qualify for it, yet the majority of people approaching retirement age believe that they will qualify for it. We are also not as clear as we should be about the implications of deferral of state pension — looking at the benefits of increasing your pension level by continuing to work and deferring the taking of that state pension. Communication in relation to pensions and people's individual decisions is absolutely critical.

It is also important that the Executive look at why so many people leave work in their 50s. A large number of those people are providing informal care, either to older people, to grandchildren or to adult children with learning disabilities. They often leave employment because of lack of flexibility for that caring role and, often, once people have left employment in their 50s, they do not enter the workforce again. Greater flexibility is absolutely vital if informal carers are to be able to remain effectively in the workplace and make their contribution.

Policymakers also need to address the problem of unemployment and economic activity across all age groups. There is a strong case for a commitment from the Executive for lifelong learning so that individuals are able to continue to update their skills right through the life course, but with a dedicated focus on older people, who significantly underuse and under-benefit from lifelong learning opportunities. Older people receive less investment in learning and development than any other age group. There is a case for government to subsidise some of the costs associated with offering training or retraining to older workers, particularly for smaller employers who may not have the resources of big or medium-sized organisations. Employers have to ensure equality of access to training for all their employees across all ages, but often say that they find that difficult to do.

The Executive should invest considerable effort in its public information campaigns to show the positive contribution of older people. We have all been through Belfast city airport and places like that and seen the posters saying Northern Ireland is a young economy and has hundreds of well-qualified IT graduates. There is no mention at all of the positive contribution made by older workers, and that could be developed if that positive contribution was publicised. We also need guidance for employers to assist them with easily accessible, practical advice on valuing an ageing workforce. It would be useful if the Executive worked with business organisations and trade unions to deliver that relevant information and support across the region.

I want to see a rebalancing of the current system of funding for employers through ApprenticeshipsNI. At present, the full costs of on-the-job training are met by ApprenticeshipsNI for those aged under 25. For those aged over 25, the government subsidy is reduced to 50%. That is directly disadvantaging those aged over 25 and my responsibility for those aged over 60. Clearly, older people are disadvantaged by that because it costs more for employers to take them on. That is a significant barrier to older people gaining employment. People in their 50s changing career have a large number of work years in front of them. There is no guarantee with any apprentice that they will stay in that trade or profession for their entire working career. Someone in their 50s may have 20, 25 or 30 years of work in front of them, yet still there is that direct discrimination in the subsidy.

In terms of public policy improvements required to deliver improvements to health, while raising state pension age will encourage some people to work longer, it will make it necessary for some to work longer. For those with an illness or disability, working beyond the state pension age may not be possible. Policy should be directed at a number of areas, particularly improving the health generally, through public health measures, of today's and tomorrow's older people. We want a Northern Ireland where people enter older age in better health than they currently do.

We want to see improved support for those with disabilities. It is vital that individuals with disabilities or who develop health problems are properly supported so that they can make the choice to stay in work or return to employment. To some extent, that responsibility rests with the individual and the employer, but there is also a role for the Executive in considering whether to build on the access to work scheme that is already in place to better support the working needs of those who live with and develop a disability or ill health.

Employers are vital leaders in ensuring greater participation of older people in the workforce, but there can be a tendency for employers to work in the short term. That is an allegation that is always put to politicians, but it is a significant feature also of the employment market. Impending demographic changes mean that senior management must plan over a longer time horizon and think about the strategic consequences of an ageing population. There are not enough young, skilled people to fill all the jobs that the Northern Ireland economy can have in front of us. Employers have to look at that strategic context and what they need to do to retain, recruit and retrain older people, too. That is in the interest of business, the wider economy and individual older people. Those employers who wish to and are able to expand, and those industries in which there is already a skills shortage, such as social care, need to focus on employing an age-diverse workforce. Fortunately for employers, the number of older people is set to increase significantly, and a majority are coming into older age healthier than ever before.

To secure that demographic dividend rather than worrying about a potential demographic time bomb, I would say to government and employers to look at the positive. A step change in employment practice and attitude is required to recognise the valuable contribution that older people make by providing greater provision for flexible working and phased retirement. That involves employers being confident enough to have a straightforward, open conversation with employees. I hear again and again from employers that it is difficult to have those conversations and that they prefer to wait until the state pension age, when the person is likely to retire. I would say to any such employer that if you have an underperforming employee, you deal with the underperformance issue; it is not age-related. If somebody is not a good employee at 65, that same person was probably not very good at 45, and if their performance has not been dealt with, that is the responsibility of the employer. It is not an issue to do with age. Performance should be tackled appropriately, regardless of age.

I also call for increased use of, and encouragement to use, occupational health services early on to assist in decisions; greater promotion of healthy living in the workplace to reduce the chances of ill-health occurring in the first place; and more transparent, positive recruitment processes to be used at older ages, which are not used either intentionally or unintentionally as a reason for discouraging someone from applying or for not hiring somebody. Employers also need to actively support and promote the take-up of training and development by people of all ages.

I have engaged directly with the Minister for Employment and Learning on policy since the launch of 'Valuing an Ageing Workforce' and have monitored his work. There has been a willingness to implement some policies, but in some areas I do not see implementation, and I would like those to be reconsidered. There is now information available for carers on NI Direct. Carers were one of the case studies cited by DEL in their recent Enabling Success strategy on economic inactivity, which highlighted some of the difficulties faced by carers. Still there are no specific measures to support carers in the workforce, and too many carers leave employment because of lack of flexibility and never re-enter the workforce. There is no dedicated programme or commitment by DEL to enhancing learning and development for older age groups. While DEL is formally reviewing careers policies and practice in Northern Ireland, older people must be a dedicated focus for this service, because they have significantly underused it and have been under-provided for by it to date.

The commitment in Enabling Success to a public information campaign on the positive contribution of older people is very welcome. This should be implemented in full and as decisively and quickly as possible, and should include guidance and practical support and toolkits for employers. However, there is still ingrained ageism. As was the case in the apprenticeship strategy and action plan, which I referred to earlier, younger people have been prioritised, and success has been judged against youth unemployment rates rather than the growth of the economy as a whole and rather than an age-diverse workforce. It is about protecting youth apprenticeships from budgetary reductions, whilst making it clear that subsidies for adult apprenticeships will be reduced. This policy makes an older apprentice less economically attractive and asks the industry and business sector to make a decision based on short-termism rather than the reality of who is going to be the best employee.

DEL has confirmed with me that it is content with disability employment provision and programmes like Access to Work, Workable and Work Connect, but the Access to Work programme has been criticised in Assembly Committees as being insufficiently promoted and struggling to cope with increased demand and budgetary pressures. My understanding is that in 2013 it helped retain 90 people in employment. There are significant policy gaps. I met the Minister for Employment and Learning in September 2014 and provided advice about what could be done to improve the employment prospects of older people. It requires a set of innovative policy measures that have been referenced in 'Valuing an Ageing Workforce'. The advice was particularly on the need for a commitment to encourage or incentivise older people to stay in work for longer, for themselves and the economy, and for a move away from it just being about the rights of older people to work or not to work, and looked at as an economic argument. There is also a need to end that cliff-edge retirement age, to look at early retirement and phased retirement opportunities, and for employers to be confident enough to have direct conversations with people about their retirement choices.

There is really insufficient evidence about why so many people in Northern Ireland leave paid work in their 50s, and that merits further attention and research. I would like to see a commitment to give carers the same rights as parents, not only to request time off for their caring responsibilities, but also to receive paid time off work. The view from carers is very much that with that flexibility they will be able to carry out their caring responsibilities and continue making a useful contribution in the workplace, so that, as and if their caring responsibilities end, their health and finances are in better shape and they will continue to be able to make their economic contribution through work. They need that flexibility desperately.

DEL should work more closely with employers to develop and encourage a commitment to lifelong learning and a focus on those industries that are currently finding it hard to recruit. This could include offering subsidies for some of the costs associated with training and retraining across all ages, remembering that the older people of today have benefited substantially less from that investment to date. Access to apprenticeships is technically irrespective of age — technically available, but, I believe, indirectly discriminatory, as the funding of those apprenticeships favours the under-25s. I do not believe that DEL should be content with disability employment provision. The Access to Work scheme in particular could be expanded to better support the working needs of those living with disabilities.

I have worked with employers to look at encouraging an age-diverse workforce and to find out the issues that concern them and where they want additional assistance. Good, progressive, forward-thinking employers say categorically that older people make good employees. They are reliable; they are willing to train and retrain; they are good team players; they turn up regularly; and they have lower rates of absence, and definitely lower rates of short-term absence. Yet employers are worried about technical compliance with age discrimination and not discriminating on the grounds of age in employment. They are worried about making sure that they do that and are placing less effort into ensuring an age-diverse workforce. They want assistance with that. They want to be able to promote the positive contribution of older people and get some assistance in managing that demographic change in the interests of their own business, the individual workers and the wider economy. Older workers do bring considerable value. Sarah Harper, the director of the Oxford Institute of Population Ageing, said that employers look on the older workforce as more experienced, especially when the skills shortage is being felt. Look at the figures from the employment reports today. That is the situation in Northern Ireland.

The Department for Work and Pensions, coming from the UK Government's perspective, has now made a commitment to employ a business champion for older workers and appointed a lady called Ros Altmann in 2013 to the post. She took it up in July 2014. This ties in with the broader strategy to encourage the employment of older workers, which was set out by the Department for Work and Pensions in their policy 'Fuller Working Lives'. Since appointment, as I am sure you will be aware, Ros Altmann has been an active public champion for older workers, disagreeing, for example, with DWP guidance by stating that employers should be barred from advertising jobs only for recent graduates, commissioning research showing that a substantial number of older people wish to work beyond 65, and assembling an over-50s employer advisory group.

'Fuller Working Lives' states that there can be significant negative individual and economic consequences associated with leaving work early, and it proposes clear measures to help people with health conditions, to assist carers, to provide better back-to-work support for older people, to encourage more training and skills development, and to provide better incentives for older people to work. While 'Fuller Working Lives' is not identical to 'Valuing an Ageing Workforce', the rationale behind the report, much of the demographic evidence and a number of the policy measures are compatible, and I commend 'Fuller Working Lives' to the Committee as a document worth considering. Those key measures like the extension of the right to request and receive flexible working for people who have caring responsibilities, clarity in pensions, clear guidance kits and toolkits for employers, increased support for carers, active involvement of older workers in championing what they can bring to the economy and more support for training and development of older workers, will assist the individual older worker, the business and the wider economy. I would say this: test that out yourselves. Have a look at the policy and the guidance and, if you need any additional information about the value to the economy, please do come back to me.

I ask you to believe the evidence. The economy needs older workers if it is to grow. Older people do not crowd out younger people in the workforce, and they make a very significant positive contribution. When you hear negative comments about older people in the workplace, as I am sure you all have done, please regard that as generally a performance management issue, something that is the responsibility of management and is not an issue to do with age. All of those recommendations are contained in 'Valuing an Ageing Workforce', and I am happy to assist you in any way with questions, so that we can secure the economic growth that we all seek and the reduction overall in unemployment and support older workers who wish to remain in the workforce. Just before anybody asks me — I am sure you will at the end — I am also absolutely confident that older people must have the right not to work — the right to retire, should they wish to do so. It has to be a matter of informed choice.

The Chairperson (Mr Swann): Thank you very much. I suppose we are guilty of having concentrated quite a lot on the NEET category to the extent that we had an inquiry. Are we, then, failing older people in your opinion? Is it because there is a handy acronym that they are further up the agenda, or is there true political will to do something?

Ms Keatinge: I understand why there has been a drive to focus on the challenge of youth unemployment and on the need for training and education for young people — I understand that. My remit is specifically for older people. They are being undermined and failed in the support that they and employers need to retain them in the workforce. There is ingrained ageism in the system. The apprenticeships example is a very sharp and obvious one. Generally, if you listen to employers, they are often reluctant to invest for the longer term in older workers. They can also display quite ageist attitudes. However, when employers take the time to pay attention to the actual academic and business evidence and when they listen to business organisations such as the Confederation of British Industry (CBI) and Business in the Community, they have a different view. They support age-diverse workforces and recognise the evidence that the economy can grow only if older workers are encouraged to remain in the workforce. There is a failure at this point to recognise the contribution that older people can and do make and to take active steps to promote their retention and recruitment.

The Chairperson (Mr Swann): On training for older people who want to re-enter the workforce or progress in it, one of the concerns that the Committee raised about the draft DEL budget was the loss of the 16,000 college places. You indicated strongly that there should be opportunities for lifelong learning for older people. Do you think that older people will be more adversely affected by that reduction in numbers than young people?

Ms Keatinge: If you look at the increase in the proportion of the population that is going to be over 65, it is inevitable that, when there is a reduction, it will significantly impact on older people. The significant issue with employment at the moment is the very prevalent ageist attitude that it is not worth training or retraining older people. It is felt that they will not want to learn or retrain or that they will not be able to understand new technology. That is simply wrong. That attitude is desperately prevalent in the education and learning sector, employers and the population as a whole. It suggests that older people cannot, will not and do not desire to train, retrain, take up employment or consider their options. The evidence is against them, and policy is lagging behind the evidence.

The Chairperson (Mr Swann): Do you have any examples of good practice? Do you have examples of employers in Northern Ireland that go against that trend?

Ms Keatinge: There are. I will not cite particular examples. Instead, I encourage you to contact employer organisations such as Business in the Community and the CBI and listen to them directly rather than have me name particular businesses. I have had conversations with a number of employers that clearly practise positive attitudes to an age-diverse workforce and say loudly and clearly, and will champion for you in the public information campaign, that their business could not have grown without the valuable contribution made by older people. They are quite clearly there. The employer organisations should be able to assist you.

The Chairperson (Mr Swann): Apprenticeships are very much sold as being all-age apprenticeships. When you raised the issue of the discrepancy with the Minister, which, by your indication, I think that you did, what was his response?

Ms Keatinge: The Minister understood the issue very clearly. He let me know that he would give it further consideration. At this point, I do not see any change in the policy or practice.

Mr Hilditch: Thanks, commissioner, for your report, which is very welcome. I will continue on the theme of employers. You indicated that they are vital leaders in the sector. You said that the tendency is for employers to work in the short term. Will you explain that a wee bit further?

Ms Keatinge: Very often, the view from employer organisations and employers is that they are working towards the immediate bottom line. They are looking to find an employee to replace an employee, or to find somebody with the skills that they need right now. The idea of looking towards investing for the longer term in training and development is something that they, with their business bottom line, can often find quite difficult. They are asking for guidance and a toolkit-type approach that is additional to how not to discriminate on the grounds of age and employment through being about how to act within the law and promote an age-diverse workforce. They are certainly looking for confident investment and support to be able to train and develop older people in work and older people coming into work. It is about that immediate business need. Very often, employers want people off the shelf who are trained and able and who, they believe, will stay with them for the long term. Of course, that is not necessarily a younger person. There is nothing to say that just because you recruit people of any age that they will stay with your industry or your firm for life.

Mr Hilditch: Thank you. How does that sit with the unions?

Ms Keatinge: Again, the conversations that I have had with trade unions have been very supportive of the idea of growth in the economy creating a larger number of jobs. In my understanding, unions have been convinced by the evidence that older people do not crowd out younger people. This is not an intergenerational row but a real opportunity to grow the economy and the number of jobs, and therefore a real opportunity to reduce poverty and disadvantage among older people, while retaining their skill in the workforce. I have met no resistance from trade unions on the issue.

Mr Hilditch: I was going to ask about local champions of the sector. You gave an example in the latter part of your presentation. Is there an opportunity to have more local champions?

Ms Keatinge: There is a very good opportunity. Have a look at the Department for Work and Pensions' older workers' champion and that idea of an over-50s' advisory group that champions the contribution that older people can make. We should think a little wider as well and engage employers, trade unions and older workers, because, together, they will bring to life the international academic evidence and the business practice evidence that is out there. They will make it believable, because it is real people and real examples that makes it believable for employers who say, "Well, I would like to do it, but I am not sure whether I will be within the law", "I am not sure how to do it", "It's too much trouble" or "I can just sort this out for now". That is what will give employers that degree of confidence and knowledge, and we have a very good opportunity to do that.

Mr Ramsey: Good morning, Claire and Ben. The Chair's earlier points are valid. We have been intensely focused on youth unemployment and economic inactivity.

I want to go back to some of the points that you made about access to work. The Minister is bringing forward an economic inactivity strategy. I take the point. I reflect on the City of Culture in my city and the remarkable contribution that older people made as ambassadors — voluntarily, I might add — and as mentors for many young people. We understand and acknowledge that. The most recent all-party motion in the Assembly was on this particular subject.

Therefore, it is given a level of relevance, but I am like the Chair, in that I want to know what more we can do to ensure that older people remain on the agenda? I chair the all-party group on learning disabilities. Yesterday, we heard testimonies on budgetary concerns from three parents from across Northern Ireland, two of whom were older people. They were in crisis, and their testimonies were so emotional that they had people in tears. As they grow older, the pressures become insurmountable, and they are not able to take up work because of those pressures. As such, they are in the economic inactivity bracket. What could you say to them? Is there anything that we can do better to ease the pressures and burdens on them? I accept your very valid points. You are a champion for older people and for the significant contribution that they make in the workforce, but what more can we do to ensure that smaller businesses are more prepared as the size of the ageing population increases?

Ms Keatinge: You make a number of points there, Pat. I will start with the role of carers in particular. There are a large number of carers who never get near the workforce in the first place. Their own health is not as good as it could be, and they have not always had the practical respite and other support that they have needed to retain their own health. They have certainly not had the opportunity of enough care for the person whom they care for to be able to consider entering training, learning or the workforce. That is a significant issue.

There are also a large number of carers — people who provide informal care — who became carers in later life. When they were in their 40s and 50s, their parents started to need care. Therefore, they are in a different kind of situation and can have very considerable difficulties with work. It can also be difficult for employers to provide that flexibility, but the individual carer can experience enormous difficulty juggling and balancing the responsibility of caring for an older person — perhaps someone who lives with dementia — with holding down a job. Employers could do with direct support through consolidation of the rights of older carers and practical guidance on how to remain within the law, how to be as flexible as possible and what else they might be able to do to assist older people. Working with the business community would present a good opportunity for you to look at how to do that.

Once those carers come out of the workplace, they tend never to go back in. There may be 20 years between coming out of employment and state retirement pension age. That is far too long, and it means that those who become carers are very likely to enter older age in greater poverty and disadvantage than they otherwise would have done.

You asked what we can do to recognise that positive contribution of workers. You referred to the City of Culture. I am familiar with a number of older City of Culture volunteers. They had a fabulous experience. They were properly supported as volunteers. They championed the city, culture and the arts. Without question, they were ambassadors for the arts and the city.

They also said to me that they felt properly treated as volunteers. They were treated in a way that said to them, "I tell you what, it is brilliant that you have come forward. We'll train you and provide you with everything that you need. You are providing the time, so we will provide the training, expertise, information and support". They felt very valued by that. Those are the sorts of champions that we need. We need people who have felt valued and who know what it looks like to be valued.

For this to remain on the agenda, the campaign that is planned by DEL on the positive contribution of older people needs to be supplemented by substantive direct engagement with business. Listen to the concerns of business as well as what looks, based on the evidence, like a good approach. Listen to their concerns and take the time to engage with them to find solutions for them.

Not only promote the positive contribution of older people but engage older people, businesses and trade unions as champions of that positive approach. Celebrate the change and the evidence. Track the difference that you make and talk it up, because the economy cannot grow unless we do that.

Mr Ramsey: Access to Work is something that we can play a role in by ensuring that the Department is meeting and increasing the targets. The figures that you mentioned — something like 80 people in employment — sound very low to me. That is something that we could raise with the Department.

Ms Keatinge: I feel that that is something that could usefully be addressed.

Ms Lo: It is an excellent report, Claire.

Ms Keatinge: Thank you very much, Anna.

Ms Lo: I agree with Pat that we have concentrated on and talked so much about economic inactivity among young people and helping young people to find jobs, yet we are not helping people at the other end of the spectrum.

I have a lot of friends and ex-colleagues in their 50s who were made redundant for the first time in their life as a result of the recession and who are finding it really difficult to find another job. With cuts in expenditure on public services, 20,000 people may seek voluntary redundancy in the next few years.

If people leave work in their 50s having been made redundant, or whatever, do you think that we help them enough to set themselves up in business instead of finding another job? With ageism, there are difficulties with jobs. There are opportunities for people with experience to set themselves up as consultants or to get into business. Do we do enough to help them?

Ms Keatinge: That is an interesting question, Anna. We see rising rates of self-employment among older people and people wanting to use their skills and experience in the self-employed market.

There is very little direct support focused on older people undertaking new business opportunities or setting themselves up. There have been a number of schemes to support older people or to pilot different methodologies for engaging older people in self-employment. It is something that a lot of older people are interested in, particularly if they have been made redundant or see a significant change in their desire for their work pattern. There could be a useful focus on self-employment, the reality of it and how to value that opportunity.

Ms Lo: That is not in your report, though, is it?

Ms Keatinge: No, it is not. I will look again at the evidence, if the Committee would like further evidence on self-employment. This is very much about an ageing workforce and the people in employment. However, there are also significant issues around supporting and encouraging volunteering and self-employment. Volunteering is largely the subject of a report called 'Appreciating Age', which recognised the contribution of older people. There is some reference made to tax and contributions made by older people in self-employment. It is an area of interest and focus.

Mr Buchanan: Thank you for your presentation. A number of issues have already been covered this morning. We as a society are indebted to the older generation for their experience, expertise, and so on.

Do you see the fixed state pension age as being a barrier to older people staying in employment and to employers continuing to employ people when they come to that age? If so, what do you think should be done?

Ms Keatinge: I do not think that the state pension age is a barrier to employment. The lack of understanding about flexibility and the deferral of pensions is a barrier to people making an informed choice about whether to stay in work. There is a lack of knowledge about the new single-tier pension that is due to come in very shortly. Most people are expecting, as they come into retirement, to receive it in full, but only about half of them have enough contributions to do so. When they get that projection, that will be a deciding factor for a lot of people when it comes to whether they try to stay in work. I do not see the actual state pension age as being the barrier; rather, the problem is the lack of understanding about the pension in general, about what people will get and about their opportunities to make informed choices.

Mr F McCann: Pat covered a number of the issues that I wished to raise.

It was an excellent presentation. Thank you for that. Such presentations, and especially the statistics that they contain, make you realise that the failure to start to deal with some of the difficulties arising now will come back to haunt us somewhere down the line. Thomas spoke about the older generation and what it has done. We need to take into consideration that half of us around this table would fit into that bracket. That needs to be taken on board.

The Committee has raised the whole issue of people over 25 and the 50% reduction in the apprenticeships budget. People approached us on that. One of the difficulties that I have witnessed over a long period is with people who hit the magic age of 65 and wanted to stay on in work. They were near enough forbidden and were eased out the door. That has a mental and physical impact on them afterwards as they try to come to terms with perhaps 30 or 40 years' work being behind them.

I was in Canada in the past year. You see quite a number of businesses in which much older people are employed — more so than you would see here. Are there good practices elsewhere that we could look into? Anna is right: we have done inquiries into apprenticeships and into careers and are conducting one into post-19 special educational needs (SEN). What is lost in all of those inquiries is that we never discussed older people and the impact on them. That may be one of the things that we need to look at, but we also need to tap into good practice in other jurisdictions to find out how things work. We are a scrutiny Committee, so we need to bring employers and Departments with us to ensure that they buy into the message that you are selling.

Ms Keatinge: You have a really good opportunity to look at the international evidence. I can certainly provide some examples for you. There is good literature on international best-practice examples that is out there for you.

The Government's Active Ageing strategy has not yet been published. There are opportunities to look at what its clear targets might be in order to demonstrate publicly a commitment to growing the economy by supporting older workers. That is an absolute shift in thinking for a lot of people, it really is. There is such deeply ingrained ageism. We need to shift that by saying that it is worth retraining older people and investing in apprenticeships. We have to do it because it is right, and it will help us grow the economy. You need to be confident in your assertions in that strategic position that it is not about taking away jobs from young people. Be very confident in that. It is about growing the economy and being fair.

There are examples of the deferral of pensions. In Holland, there is very clear information about your right to defer your state pension and get an increased pension if you are remaining in work. In Sweden, which is always cited as an example — I must go to Sweden some day; it sounds almost perfect, except for the IKEA furniture, which I cannot put together — more funding of lifelong learning is hugely important and highly valued in people of all ages.

In Finland, there has been a sustained promotion of the value and contribution of older workers, particularly through human resource professionals as well as through government. Therefore, there are a number of international examples from within the EU, as well as from further afield places such as Canada, where you will simply see a different age profile. Look at different industries here that are already struggling to recruit. Just think about those and look at the opportunities for older people to train and to be supported in employment. Look at the flexibility that they need to be able to deliver quality for the employer and at what the employer needs to be able to recruit and retrain those older workers.

Mr F McCann: I have just one point. You mentioned DWP a number of times. Is there a difference between how England deals with it and how we deal with it here?

Ms Keatinge: We do not have a comparable policy direction here. We do not have that focus on older workers. It is as simple as that. I have put it to the Minister that it would be useful, and he has agreed that he will give it consideration, but we do not have it at this point. If you look at the role that Ros Altmann is performing as the older workers' business champion for the UK Government, you will see that it is a useful function. Bringing together the over-50s in an advisory capacity to look at the contribution that they make is very useful, but I suggest that here it would be very useful to supplement that directly with employers and trade unions to have an around-the-table approach.

The Chairperson (Mr Swann): One of the things that Fra highlighted is that, during our careers education, information, advice and guidance inquiry, nobody who presented evidence to us ever mentioned the need for careers advice for older people. There was talk about putting it into primary schools but never into the upper end of the age bracket. It has definitely been worthwhile from that point of view.

Ms Keatinge: That is where we see the difference between direct discrimination and an ingrained ageist attitude. If an older person had turned up at the Careers Service to ask for advice and information, he or she probably would have got it. The Careers Service did not think, or did not appear to think, that it was really focusing on that age group, but a lot of older people have taken the view that it is not for them because of the way in which the service is promoted. It is not that older people would not have got the service had they turned up; rather, because of attitudes and how the service is promoted, it is very unlikely that they would turn up.

Ms Sugden: Ageism, in my opinion, is probably the most accepted form of discrimination. Ironically, it is the one thing that unites us all. No matter the background, gender or religion, everyone will grow old. It baffles me why we do not have more of a focus on it. I am one of the youngest members in the Assembly, and I almost feel that my generation has a responsibility to look after the people who, let us face it, looked after it. To be selfish about it, we are all going to grow old. I am looking after my own interests in that respect, too. As a representative of East Londonderry, I know that a significant number of my constituents are older, and everyone around this table can say the same. We are an ageing population, so it is something that we really need to focus on.

I am a champion or advocate of lifelong learning. I feel that way because I think that the experience that you get from jobs is how you learn. That experience is developed through lifelong learning.

It would be remiss of me to be such an advocate for work experience and not, alongside that, be an advocate for the people who have experience, if that makes sense. From the opportunities that I have had in life, I know that the greatest mentor I had — he would not like me to say this — was considered to be an older person. I hung on his every word, and I am certainly sitting here today because of him. I definitely do not think that it is the case that older people are in competition with younger people. If anything, it is a great compliment to one another. You learn from one another.

I subscribe to everything that you said. I do not think that we are deliberately missing out older people. However, it is the case that we have almost forgotten about them, which in itself is quite sad. I am very disappointed by the Executive's approach to addressing the needs of older people. They have been quite irresponsible in looking at the needs of older people. I have challenged them on that, but, unfortunately, there have been no great strides forward. Hopefully, Committee members will see the need to push their Ministers on. I hope that people sit up and take notice. As an MLA, it is my responsibility to do that. There are three main groups that we should look after: younger people, older people and the vulnerable. Everyone else comes next. That is what I will be doing.

Thank you for your presentation. I think that it was necessary. I also think that it is important to say that it is not a case of keeping more people in work. We have to address each individual need. If people reach retirement age and decide that they need to leave work, that is fine. However, should they feel that they want to move on, that is also fine. We need to look at individual circumstances. Someone at 50 years of age may feel that way; someone even younger may feel that way. It is not a case of, as you say, a cliff drop. We must have a more realistic approach. Unfortunately, in this world and in policy, we try to apply a black-and-white approach. That is not the case at all. We know that when we talk to people on the ground. I very much welcome your presentation and hope that the message gets through.

Ms Keatinge: I certainly support the idea of mutual advantage and learning from and across the generations. I have listened to employers who employ an age-diverse workforce, and they say that one of the big contributions that their older workers make is to help new, younger colleagues. They are good team players. They are willing to share their experience and knowledge, without presuming that they know everything. They are also willing to learn. The evidence of mutual benefit is very strong, Claire. Thank you for raising that.

There is also the question of the right not to remain in employment, and that is important for older people. The question of investing in health generally upstream, in training and learning, and in knowledge about pension entitlements is important so that people can make informed choices at each stage of their working life.

Ms McGahan: Thank you very much for your presentation. It has been asked of the Committee: what can we do? I notice that you have a recommendation on apprenticeships. Apprenticeships are an important way to gain skills, knowledge and experience. The figures show that we have almost 6,300 apprentices in the North. Only 267 of those individuals are acknowledged as having a disability. As an action point from the Committee, I suggest that we write to the Department asking how well apprenticeships cater for older people in the North so that we can start to put a focus on that area.

An acute problem here that concerns me involves older people living in rural areas — women, in particular. I know quite a lot of women in my area who are 60-plus and cannot drive, including my mother. It is a great disadvantage. That concerns me, especially for people in rural areas.

Ms Keatinge: The question of apprenticeships is important. Almost regardless of the number of older people who take it up, it is a significant statement of intention that there is equal merit in investing in older people as in younger people. As well as whatever correspondence you have with the Department, there is an opportunity to include in the active ageing strategy clear targets that focus on guidance for employers, older workers' champions, engagement, public information campaigns and changing the focus on apprenticeships. Those would be really valuable, clear, measurable targets that would benefit older people and demonstrate that it is of value to the economy. I think that you have a really useful opportunity.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Buchanan): No other members have indicated that they wish to ask questions. Thank you for your presentation, which has certainly given the Committee some food for thought this morning. Maybe, as a Committee, we could get agreement to send a copy of Hansard to the Department to allow it to have a look at it.

Ms Keatinge: As always, Chairperson, it is a pleasure to be of any assistance I can. I will be happy to provide the Committee with any further information or points of clarification that it requires. Thank you very much for this opportunity.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Buchanan): Thank you.