Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Irwin): I welcome Colette McMaster, assistant secretary, and Niall Heaney, principal officer. I ask you to take up to 10 minutes for your presentation, and then we will ask questions.

Mrs Colette McMaster (Department of Agriculture and Rural Development): Thank you for the opportunity to make this presentation regarding the second annual progress report on the rural White Paper action plan. I have with me Niall Heaney, who is the policy lead for DARD rural policy initiatives, including the rural White Paper action plan.

The annual progress report 2014 was published on the DARD website in December in line with the monitoring arrangements agreed for the rural White Paper action plan and the targets set in DARD's business plan. The rural White Paper action plan is an Executive initiative led by the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development, which aims to identify and address key issues and challenges facing rural communities. It was approved by the Executive in May 2012 and formally launched by the DARD Minister in June 2012. The rural White Paper action plan sets out the Executive's vision for rural areas and contains commitments by all Departments in support of achieving that vision and to help ensure the future sustainability of rural areas.

The action plan provides a framework for a more integrated approach for the Executive to address the challenges affecting rural areas. It recognises that issues affecting rural areas cut across the remits of all Departments. Responsibility for delivering the actions contained in the action plan lies with the respective lead Department, and DARD has the role of monitoring the implementation of the action plan. The monitoring arrangements set out in the plan provide for Departments to report back to DARD through the interdepartmental committee on rural policy (IDCRP) on the progress made in implementing their commitments and for DARD to publish an annual report on progress on its website. The IDCRP is an interdepartmental committee made up of senior civil servants from all Departments and is chaired by the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development. The IDCRP was responsible for overseeing the development of the action plan and has a key role to play in monitoring its implementation. In May 2014 the IDCRP met to discuss progress on implementing the rural White Paper action plan and agreed the format for the annual progress report, which is similar to that used in the previous year.

The second annual progress report 2014, which was published on 18 December, details the progress made by Departments in implementing their commitments in the rural White Paper action plan during the period from its launch in June 2012 until 30 June 2014. DARD has a number of wide-ranging commitments in the rural White Paper action plan and has made good progress in taking these forward. Over the reporting period, significant progress has been made across the range of actions, including: the work on CAP reform; work with other Departments to develop the Executive response to the Agri-Food Strategy Board's strategic action plan, Going for Growth; development of the rural development programme 2014-2020; and advancement of relocation plans.

The key development in the reporting period has been the appointment of a rural statistician by DARD, who has been working on a range of rural policy issues, including the collation of statistics from across government. The first set of rural/urban comparative statistics was made available on the DARD website in autumn 2014 and will be used to enhance the evidence base for rural development policy. The system of settlement classification is currently subject to review by a cross-departmental working group led by the Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency (NISRA). The rural statistician represents DARD on this group, which is expected to publish its findings later this year. It is envisaged that the work undertaken by the rural statistician and other planned rural research will contribute to better policy outcomes for rural dwellers through greater focus on evidence-informed rural policy-making and an increased knowledge and understanding of rural issues.

DARD has also progressed a number of joint initiatives with other Departments as part of the Programme for Government (PFG) commitment to bring forward a package of measures to tackle rural poverty and social isolation. A total of £11·5 million has been spent in the period up to June 2014 under a diverse range of measures. These measures are delivered in partnership with other organisations. The aim is to complement other poverty and isolation initiatives and actions undertaken by government. For example, during the period of the 2014 report, DARD has continued to support the delivery of the maximising access in rural areas (MARA) project in conjunction with the Public Health Agency. The MARA project aims to improve the health and wellbeing of people living in rural areas by increasing access to services, grants and benefits, and by facilitating a coordinated service to support rural dwellers living in or at risk of poverty and social isolation. The annual progress report includes a number of case studies that demonstrate the positive impact this programme has had on the lives of rural people.

DARD has also continued to support the assisted rural travel scheme (ARTS), a joint initiative by DARD and DRD, which aims to address the issue of access to transport services in rural areas. Under the ARTS initiative over-60s and disabled SmartPass holders in rural areas can avail of free and concessionary half-fare transport via the rural community transport partnership services. This scheme has been very popular, with over 630,000 trips having been funded to 30 June 2014.

DARD has also been doing work with DCAL and Libraries NI with a view to raising the profile of libraries in rural areas. A range of projects has been developed, including the Library in a Box initiative, which aims to improve access to books and reading in rural areas. DARD is also working in partnership with a range of organisations, including Libraries NI, to extend the Health in Mind initiative in rural areas. Health in Mind is a library programme that aims to raise awareness of positive mental health and increase understanding of mental health issues through reading, learning and information-sharing.

Finally, the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development has made a commitment to strengthen rural proofing across Government. As the Committee is aware, DARD has commenced the process of developing proposals for a rural proofing Bill to be progressed within the current Assembly mandate subject to Executive approval. The proposed Bill will require the needs of rural dwellers and the impacts on rural communities to be identified and appropriately addressed in the development and delivery of policy and public services. The Minister launched today a public consultation on the proposals and officials will hold a series of public meetings throughout the six-week consultation period. DARD has also continued to support other Departments in implementing rural proofing through the provision of advice, guidance and training.

The Minister has made it clear that she sees the rural White Paper action plan as a live initiative, which continues to respond to the needs of rural communities and deliver meaningful outcomes for rural dwellers. She has asked her Executive colleagues to identify in their Departments new and challenging actions for inclusion in a refreshed action plan to be published during 2015. Departments have indicated that uncertainty over budgets has impacted on their ability to commit to new actions. Now that the Budget situation has been clarified, officials propose to meet with members of the IDCRP over the next few weeks to encourage Departments to revisit this issue with a view to identifying further new actions. They also plan to continue to engage with rural stakeholders on the refresh of the rural White Paper action plan though the stakeholder group that will be considering the rural proofing Bill proposals.

DARD will continue to monitor progress by Departments on implementing the rural White Paper action plan. It is intended to produce the next annual progress report by 31 December 2015 on the progress made by Departments up to 30 June 2015. Thank you. We are happy to take questions and comments on the annual report.

The Chairperson (Mr Irwin): Thank you very much, Colette, for your presentation. In your opinion, how is the whole process of the rural White Paper bedding down? Do you think that it is encouraging other Departments to understand the design of rural life?

Mrs McMaster: The Minister sees it as a live initiative, and the process of engaging with Departments and of them inputting and reporting progress and so on is helping to bed in the approach. Good progress is being reported on the actions that are contained in the plan. You will see that by looking through the annual report. There are a number of case studies evidencing very good progress on the work being done in rural areas and rural communities and the results that are being achieved by that. This is just the second year of reporting, and good progress is being made. As I said, the Minister sees it as a live initiative and wants it to remain very refreshed, if you like. So, it is something that we are coming back to, and we will be engaging over the next weeks with Departments again to see whether we can get further and refreshed input into the action plan for the next year.

Mr McAleer: Colette, a while ago, you referred to the settlement classification review, which should be concluded later this year. Will the settlement classification have an implication for whether different settlements are eligible or otherwise to get funding from the rural development programme?

Mrs McMaster: We have applied the current default classification to the rural development programme, which is that rural settlements are considered to be populations below 4,500. In putting the draft programme forward, we are continuing to work on that basis. So, we will wait and see what the next results of the review are. I anticipate that, if a recommendation emerges from the review for a change, it will be a recommendation for a default but, again, with some flexibility provided. Departments would be required to show a rationale as to why they would divert from the default, but there would be an opportunity to apply a slightly different approach if that were appropriate in the circumstances.

Mr Niall Heaney (Department of Agriculture and Rural Development): I think that we have used the default position of 4,500, but that does not stop other Departments giving a good rationale for providing funding below or above that threshold. It is just that we would be concerned in case there were a gap, and, say, some Departments used a figure of 10,000 and we used 4,500 and there was a gap in between. We are trying to stop that and put 4,500 as a default, but that does not stop interventions in other settlements and looking at flexibility in the programme to make sure that no one loses out.

Mr McAleer: You referred to the MARA programme. As Members who represent rural areas, we know how successful that has been. What is you intention in respect of the MARA programme going forward?

Mrs McMaster: The MARA programme is a programme that DARD is engaged in jointly with DHSSPS. It is led by DHSSPS, with DARD contributing to it. You are right to say that it has been very successful. To date, in the lifetime of this PFG, 13,287 households have been visited under the MARA project. So, it is very successful. The Department of Health is reporting on it as well as us because of the engagement of that Department. In going forward with any of these actions, we will certainly be encouraging Departments to look at the impact of the existing actions, and, where there is good impact, we will encourage people, if there is a need and a gap, to consider continuing with that in future. Ideally — obviously, it comes down to resourcing and so on in the end — it is to help decisions about what is the best way to use resources and so on. Part of doing that will be, as the Minister is encouraging people to do, using rural proofing and considering the potential impact in rural areas of decisions about how resources will be used in the future before making those decisions. I will just ask Niall if he has anything further on MARA.

Mr Heaney: MARA started off as a pilot project to test the market, so to speak, to see if there was a need, and it clearly demonstrated that there is a need in rural areas. So it has worked quite well from that point of view. Working with the Public Health Agency (PHA) and DHSSPS on it has also shown that they are very keen to fulfil that need, so I cannot see it being shut down. It is just a matter of looking at resources and how we move on to see whether people continually fall into the MARA programme. We have done so much work that it is a matter of recapping, looking at what we have done and seeing if there are any other areas of intervention that need to be done. Ideally, we would like to see it mainstreamed as part of Government policy, which would see the Health Department taking it forward, but that is a fight that we will have to have with Health moving forward.

Mr McAleer: I have a final point, Chair. Thanks for your indulgence. When we got the briefing on the MARA project in recent months, we were impressed at the level of data that was gathered in the course of carrying out all of the visits. We agreed on the importance of that information being used and shared across Department to help pinpoint people who are in need and maybe to inform decision-making across Departments. There is such a rich source of information there that should be used right across the board.

Mrs McMaster: Absolutely, I think that is important. Departments are building evidence and information about the need in rural areas and how that is being addressed. We encourage the integration of that knowledge and information across Departments.

Mr Heaney: Our rural statistician is also taking some of that information to build up a rural evidence base on the website. That will factor into that work as well.

Mr McAleer: Sounds good.

Mr Byrne: In relation to the second annual report, is DARD coordinating or is it leading on the innovations between Departments?

Mrs McMaster: There are two roles for DARD. We have actions to deliver in the rural White Paper action plan. We are working with other Departments to deliver a number of those actions, but, because the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development is leading on the rural White Paper action plan initiative in the Executive, DARD also has the role of leading on the monitoring of and reporting on the progress of the action plan. I suppose there is a dual role there. We are involved in delivering on the commitments that we have made and we have that additional role of leading and monitoring.

Mr Byrne: If we take the second annual report, what new innovation projects have been developed that were not there previously?

Mrs McMaster: For DARD, they are probably the sorts of areas I have mentioned, such as the rural statistician. The launch of the rural statistics website in DARD is a new development in this year. That probably launched just at the end of the period that we are looking at, but DARD engaged the statistician during that period, and the results of that have led to the launch of the new rural statistics website. From our point of view, that is a significant one in terms of building that database of statistics and evidence that all Departments can draw on to help them to make their decisions.

Mr Byrne: You are doing a great job of inflating its significance, Colette, but appointing a statistician is a fairly modest achievement in one year.

Mrs McMaster: No, it is really the outcome and the usefulness of that information across Departments, not just our own. There are other —

Mr Byrne: What are the key priorities for new projects for the next year? Have they been set yet?

Mrs McMaster: Yes. Departments have been asked to look at the actions that they have already committed to in the action plan and to consider new and challenging actions to include in the future action plan. Each Department is being asked to do that, including our own, obviously. Therefore, DARD will be doing that, but all other Departments have been asked to do it as well. That process has started. It will be very much down to Departments to determine what, for them, is a challenging new action for inclusion. Departments will have to look at those decisions from a resourcing point of view, because they will have to resource actions from within their budget, but it is a process that DARD has to work through as well. The contributions to the new action plan will be actions signed off at ministerial level in Departments. It is not so much DARD determining what actions others will include as each Department coming forward with the actions for inclusion.

Mr Byrne: We are depending on new and challenging projects to emanate from each individual Department. That begs the question: is DARD leading or coordinating, and will there be a statutory basis for rural proofing being put on a legislative footing?

Mrs McMaster: We are leading on it, but it is a coordinating role, which involves asking other Departments to come forward with their new actions. That is something that the Minister decided that she wanted to do this year. The rural White Paper action plan was launched by the Executive, with a view to it being reviewed after five years, but the Minister wanted to go out this year and ask Departments and Ministers to bring forward new and challenging actions. That is one thing that is happening now.

There is not a statutory basis for the rural White Paper action plan. It is an Executive commitment, and all Departments are committed to considering it and to delivering on the commitments in it, but the Minister is bringing forward proposals for a rural proofing Bill, which would put a duty on Departments to consider the impacts of any potential policy or service in a rural area and to take those into account before making decisions about future policies and services. The actions that are included in a rural White Paper action plan in future will help enhance and strengthen the rural-proofing approach.

Mr Anderson: Thank you, Colette and Niall, for your presentation. To continue on the theme of the rural statistician, it seems very good, but statistics can be moved around to suit what we want to read into them, or whatever. I see from the rural White Paper action plan that the statistician was to report back in the autumn of 2014. Can you expand on that? What do you see coming out of that that may be useful and important in the short term for addressing the great issues that we have in rural communities? That is something that the action plan has to address if we are to help rural dwellers have a better quality of life and better services. Is anything jumping out initially from the statistics? I take it that what we have is the first set of statistics, from last autumn.

Mr Heaney: There is quite a lot of information that is in the public domain, but the data that we have at the minute covers people and households, income and poverty, economy and the labour market, health, education, crime, housing, transport and quality of life. There are differences and similarities between urban and rural. We also have similarities in urban mixed with rural, in urban east and urban west and in rural east and rural west to try to have a comparator to see whether there are any issues specific to certain rural areas, because you cannot just compare rural areas with urban ones.

Then there is one for the Belfast metropolitan area.

Some of the big things jumping out, as you would expect, concern access to transport, especially in the rural west. Another thing is health care. Education is quite positive. Attainment in rural areas is seen to be better, and that has been demonstrated in the statistics up until 16 years of age, which is school-leaving age. Some of that is quite good. That information is gathered from a lot of other Departments and from the NISRA website. We can therefore stand over it and go to other Departments and say, "The statistics show this. We should look at any intervention needed". Some interventions could be about post-school education, which we do not have responsibility for, but we can at least use the statistics to go to other Departments with an evidence base to start the discussion about what interventions we might look at for rural areas, such as third-level education or having a discussion with DRD on transport provision to hospital care in certain areas of the west. It is quite good from that point of view, and it is quite good that our stakeholders have access to that information and can use it as well. We think that it is quite a good resource. It also helps us with our tackling rural poverty and isolation agenda, as we can see on where we should focus our spend in future.

Mr Anderson: Yes, but, when we get all those facts and figures, how can we then get the Departments to come together to take action? Those are probably good facts that are telling us a lot, but it is about putting them —

Mr Heaney: It is about putting them into practice.

Mr Anderson: Yes, it is about putting them into practice. Anyone who has lived in a rural area or has knowledge of rural areas knows only too well the issues out there. The issue of who will fund something and how it will all be brought together is a massive one. We can talk all we want about the issues, produce all the reports and stats, and know what has to be done, but, at the end of the day, it is about how we can put it into practice.

Mr Heaney: An example is DRD looking at integrated transport provision. We are working with it on that. It is doing a pilot in Dungannon. It is bringing through all the transport providers from health, education and community transport. Rural stakeholders are at the table as well. It is about looking at how we can use what government resources are there from all the transport providers and integrate them, thus making the provision better and applicable to a rural setting. Such things are used in a rural context to identify specific needs, and they are working in practice. I do not think that we would have got that without the development of the White Paper and rural proofing. I think that DRD would have just looked at transport provision and thought that it might have to cut it through a broad-brush approach, but it is now looking at rural dwellers' specific needs to see whether we have to tailor transport provision in an area. It might be best looking at what transport we have there. It is not just about the Ulsterbus fleet but about education and library board buses and health-care buses. It is about looking at the community fleet, and where people travel to, to see how we can best use it. We should then make it applicable to a rural setting to meet the needs of all rural dwellers.

You can see that it is difficult work. It is a very good project. DRD is piloting it in the Dungannon and Cookstown area to start looking at what the difficulties are in order to try to iron them out. Difficulties around licensing and other stuff come into it as well. This is probably the first time that we have even tried to do something like this here, because we keep hearing that there is an education fleet that is not being used outside the morning and evening school runs, and so is sitting there all day, although other issues are involved there, such as paying drivers on a part-time basis. The pilot is looking at that comprehensively and trying to tailor provision to meet the needs of rural dwellers. It is a worthwhile project.

Mr Anderson: The past number of years have been about reducing services and doing away with a lot of rural —

Mr Heaney: Yes, we are concerned that DRD will cut rural provision, so we are trying to work with them —

Mr Anderson: Take rural libraries for a start. What has happened to them in villages and elsewhere? I and other Committee members have had to endure rural libraries being closed down. We are talking about perhaps bringing some element of a rural library to the community.

Mr Heaney: We have worked with rural libraries quite a lot. In recent times, although they are facing massive reductions, no more rural libraries are being closed. Instead, their opening hours are being reduced. Libraries NI is happy to work with DARD, and especially the farming community, at certain peak times of the year, such as around the time of single farm payment applications, to tailor a package to help people through that. All the libraries have super-fast broadband. Therefore, there are things that we can do if we are a bit more flexible, and we are working with Libraries NI on those sorts of initiatives.

Mr Anderson: You touched on getting the broadband sorted.

Mr Heaney: We cannot sort out everything, but all the libraries have confirmed that they have super-fast broadband and that staff can help farmers navigate the relevant sites, because that is also a difficulty.

Mr Anderson: It is a massive issue. I wish you well in whatever comes out of this. I suppose that anything is better than nothing. We have to make a start somewhere.

Mr Heaney: If we keep it on agenda, at least we will take account of it.

The Chairperson (Mr Irwin): We will keep trying to move it forward.

Mr Anderson: There is substantial overlap between the rural White Paper action plan and the tackling rural poverty and social isolation (TRPSI) framework. Do we need both?

Mrs McMaster: I suppose that the rural White Paper action plan includes initiatives by all Departments. The TRPSI framework is a DARD initiative, so it is certainly part of all those actions. The rural White Paper action plan contains a lot of broader actions that go right across government and beyond the TRPSI framework, I suppose. A lot of the actions in the tackling rural poverty and social isolation framework in particular fit very well on to the rural White Paper action plan because they are actions on which we are engaged in collaboration with other Departments, which is part of the aim of the rural White Paper action plan. There are a lot more actions across other Departments as well as our own in the rural White Paper action plan. The TRPSI framework is one part of it, I suppose.

Mrs Dobson: I apologise for missing your briefing. My question may have been covered already. I want to focus on the MARA project for one moment, if I may. It is heartening to read the case studies and see the success that the project is having on the ground. Is it DARD's intention to fund it up to 2016? What is the future of the project?

Mrs McMaster: We did talk about that when discussing ongoing work. A lot of it started out as pilot work, and it was rolled out from there. There have been very good impacts from the MARA project. What we are saying is that we would encourage all Departments to look at the impacts that the project has had when considering and making decisions on how they use funding in future.

Another thing that came up in the discussion earlier was the need to identify the other gaps that there might be out there. Ideally, we would like anything good that has emerged out of the rural White Paper action plan to be mainstreamed across Departments and for them to be able to take it forward. Obviously, all of that is subject to resource decisions. We would like to see that started, but it is also important to look at where there might be other gaps where further or new work is needed.

Mrs Dobson: Colette, when you say "across Departments", I note that the business case from the PHA has been approved and that funding has been secured for 2014-15. When will we hear about funding for the MARA project up to 2016?

Mrs McMaster: The funding for 2015-16?

Mrs Dobson: For the project.

Mrs McMaster: I am not aware that there is a question mark over the funding for 2015-16.

Mrs Dobson: It is secured and not in any doubt. Is that what you are saying?

Mrs McMaster: The funding is in place for the TRPSI framework in 2015-16. Are you thinking about beyond that, into 2016-17?

Mrs Dobson: Yes. When you have a successful project and benefits from it have been demonstrated, obviously, you want to hear more about how secure it is into the future. You said the PHA has its funding in place for 2014-15 going forward across Departments. Is the funding categorically in place? Is it your intention to fund the project up to 2016?

Mrs McMaster: There is an action plan in place for 2014-15. Decisions have been taken now for funding for 2015-16. Going beyond that is into the next Budget period, so I am not sure how the funding will work through, but Departments will bid in the next Budget process for the Budget period beyond 2015-16. I anticipate that that will happen in June of this year.

Mrs Dobson: Therefore, you have secured the funding going forward for the MARA project, then. You do not see any issues with that coming down the line.

Mrs McMaster: I think that decisions beyond this Budget period will be subject to the Budget process for beyond 2015-16. I can talk only about our own funding.

Mr Heaney: We do not hold the budget for the MARA project. It is held elsewhere in DARD. The TRPSI framework has secured additional budget up to 2016, and MARA is part of one of our TRPSI programmes.

Mrs Dobson: Do you see there being an issue or are you confident that it will be carried forward?

Mr Heaney: I do not see there being any major issue with the MARA project. After 2016, we are into a new comprehensive spending review period. That is a difficulty, but we will worry about it then. I think that, up until 2016 —

Mrs Dobson: It is just that Colette was speaking about pilot schemes and different things. It is important that there be security, given the MARA project's success. It is important that people can see that it will be rolled out, going forward. Maybe we could be updated in due course.

The Chairperson (Mr Irwin): I do not think that we can go any further forward than 2016, because we will be into a new mandate, you see. I would have thought that 2016 would be the end of that.

Mrs Dobson: Are there no issues up until 2016?

Mrs McMaster: I am not aware of any issues.

Mrs Dobson: Therefore, it is secured up until 2016.

Mrs McMaster: It is secured until 2015-16.

Mrs Dobson: It is secured up until then.

Mrs McMaster: That is my understanding. I am not aware of anything else. If there is anything else, we will let you know.

Mrs Dobson: Can you clarify that for me the situation up until that point? I understand that we will have a new mandate in 2016, but I would like clarity on the situation up until then.

Mr Buchanan: I apologise for being late and missing your presentation. The rural White Paper action plan and rural proofing — especially rural proofing — are issues I am very interested in, coming as I do from a rural area. I am keen to see that the needs of the people in rural areas are protected and retained, if at all possible. I notice that one of the things the Department did was set up a working group to look at the community use of schools and that type of thing. Guidance was issued in January 2014. Have you an update on that? Can you tell us anything about how work is going between the working group and the schools on trying to get more community involvement in schools? We know that at times numbers in rural schools fluctuate. When numbers are down is when we want to be real about rural proofing and about trying to keep our rural schools. That is when we need greater community involvement. We need that in order to try to keep our schools until pupil numbers increase again.

Mrs McMaster: Are you referring to a working group that was established under the Department of Education?

Mr Buchanan: Yes.

Mrs McMaster: That is action number 31 in the progress report. In its update to us on the extended schools programme, the Department of Education stated that it will be encouraging:

I have not got anything further with me on that initiative.

Mr Heaney: We do not have anything further, but we are keen to support that initiative. When the White Paper was being developed, we were told that it would be up to individual principals of a school to decide how they use the school building, because there are a lot of insurance difficulties, but none that is insurmountable. I think that it is probably better to make the best use of the facilities that are there rather than build another community centre or community hall. We will be speaking to DE as part of the process of identifying new actions, and we can raise that with it again.

Mr Buchanan: What is the Department taking the lead in in the rural White Paper action plan? Surely there has to be communication with the different Departments on how things are taken forward and progressed and on how targets are met. Does DARD not play that type of a role, since it is taking the lead, if you like, with the rural White Paper action plan?

Mr Heaney: Do you mean like a challenge role?

Mr Buchanan: Yes.

Mr Heaney: No, we have the role of coordinating the actions, because it is up to each Department with policy responsibility for the actions to contribute to them, because all the actions are agreed at ministerial level by individual Ministers. We will support action 31 and speak to the Department of Education about furthering it, because it is one that we have raised with it in the past.

Mrs McMaster: We will be talking to officials from Departments over the next week about the refreshed action plan. We will be encouraging Departments, when they are making decisions about what they will be taking forward, to consider rural proofing. That is a discussion that we will be having with them over the next weeks.

Mr Buchanan: Fair enough. Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr Irwin): Joined-up government is very important. I am thinking of renewable energy. Planning Service works hard to achieve that. Just this week, I spoke to someone who had got approval for a wind turbine. However, the difficulty is that Northern Ireland Electricity has given that individual a quote but will not say whether it will be one year, two years or three years before a connection can be obtained. Those things are stifling progress. There is a push to help in one regard, but, at the next stage, people are often stifled and unable to move forward. Therefore, there are issues.

That is all the questions for now. Thank you very much for your presentation.