Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Miss M McIlveen): I welcome the members of the Speedwell Trust to our meeting this morning. We have been joined by Mr Eamon McClean, the manager of the Speedwell Trust, Mr Eric Reaney, trustee, Ms Libby Robinson, principal of Edwards Primary School, Castlederg, and Mr Brian McGurk, principal of St Patrick's Primary School, Castlederg. Thank you for joining us. Please make your opening statement, after which, members will follow up with some questions.

Mr Eamon McClean (Speedwell Trust): Thank you, Madam Chairperson and members of the Committee, for taking the opportunity to hear from the Speedwell Trust. We greatly welcome the Committee's decision to hold an inquiry into shared and integrated education. These two forms of education are of the utmost importance in helping to ensure that our two main communities in Northern Ireland can move forward constructively and with a greater degree of understanding than hitherto.

Our comments will be confined to shared education, as our work involves supporting schools and implementing shared education but does not extend to the implementation of integrated education. We appreciate that there have been significant developments since we made our submission in October, with the Sharing Works policy, the proposal to remove community relations, equality and diversity (CRED) funding and the significant injection of funding for the shared education project.

The Speedwell Trust is a charity with 23 years' experience of delivering education programmes designed to facilitate constructive contact and greater understanding between children from different religious and cultural backgrounds. We are based near Dungannon, and we do a lot of work in the mid-Ulster area. Recently, however, we have been working in Belfast, Newry, Armagh, Craigavon, Magherafelt and as far down here as Castlederg and some places in Omagh. We have worked with well over 200 schools, and, last year, we worked with about 100 schools.

We are not in receipt of any funding from the Department of Education. We get our own funding from different sources including, for example, the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade in Dublin and the European Peace funds. Recently, we got funding from the Tudor Trust in England, which supports the work that we are doing in Castlederg. Those funders recognise that there is a need. As we are all very aware, that need reflects the fact that the education system, comprising controlled and maintained schools, is primarily based along religious lines.

Crucially, a recent Young Life and Times survey indicated that 24% of 16-year-olds do not have any friends from the other community. It also showed that 77% said that if there was a situation that allowed the facilitation of mixing and meeting, that would improve good relations. Taking those two points together, we believe that there is a huge need for more sharing of education. This evidence strongly supports the idea that there is a need. However, if shared education is going to form a central element of the Executive's approach to cross-community relations, as we believe it definitely should, it is essential that all involved are using the same definition of shared education and that any shared education will facilitate sustained and meaningful contact between children from the two main traditions on this island.

We are, therefore, disappointed to discover that there is no clear statutory definition of shared education. The Executive seem to be using a definition that appears to allow collaboration, for example, between a Catholic grammar school and a non-grammar school, on one hand, and between a predominantly Protestant controlled voluntary grammar school and a non-grammar school, on the other, to be viewed as shared education. We appreciate that they are still working on a definition, but we believe that it should contain a line that says that sharing should be specifically between the two main traditions in Northern Ireland. We welcome the Minister of Education's commitment to introduce a statutory obligation to facilitate and encourage shared education. However, as I have outlined, it is essential that this relates to a cross-community definition of shared education.

The need to require and encourage schools to participate in cross-community education is underlined by the fact that, in a recent survey of 568 schools, only 306, or 54%, said that they had been involved in shared education on a cross-community basis. That leaves 46% saying that they took part in shared education but it was not on a cross-community basis. Moreover, we found that only 15% of schools that had participated in shared education had done so in a way that involved the whole school. While we believe that shared education is a great concept and is very exciting, there is a danger of losing sight of the initial goal, which is central to the Speedwell Trust's ethos of bringing children together from both sides of the community.

In conclusion, the Education Minister should bring forward, at the earliest possible opportunity, a statutory definition of shared education that makes it explicit that it must involve meaningful cross-community interaction between pupils on a sustained basis. Using this definition, the Department of Education must make it a statutory obligation for schools to ensure that all their pupils are provided with the opportunity to participate in shared education on a regular basis. We think that the Department should initiate an award scheme for schools. There are plenty of schools doing a brilliant job of promoting good relations and shared education, and I believe that these two schools in Castlederg are a great example of that. I will hand you over to Brian McGurk, who will say something about the work that they are doing.

Mr Brian McGurk (St Patrick's Primary School, Castlederg): Good morning, everybody. I will give you a brief overview of our programme to give you an insight into what we do. I am the principal of St Patrick's Primary School, which is a Catholic maintained school in Castlederg, and Libby Robinson is the principal of Edwards Primary School. We have a programme of sharing. We use the Speedwell project for a large part of that. We start at nursery school, and we work through a musical pathways project. At the end of that, we bring parents together. That is like a gateway project; all the parents who come to our schools, both of which have nursery units, come in at the start of their children's schooling and see the work that is bringing the children together. Building on that, we bring P1 to P3 classes together, and they do school visits. Our kids visit Edwards Primary School, and vice versa. We look at nature and diversity in nature etc. That is really to build up friendships between the staff and the pupils.

In P4 and P5, when you have all those things built up, we look at similarities and differences in people, cultures and religions. For instance, the P4s look at the issues of flags and different traditions in their communities. In year 5, the children visit all the local churches in the community and meet all the ministers and clergy etc. Moving into P6 and P7, it is a process of getting ready. We look at sporting opportunities in the community. We look at similarities and differences again. We involve the IFA, the IRFU and the GAA. The Irish Hockey Association has been used in the past as well. We look at all the sports that are available in our locality, and the children participate fully. In year 7, we link in with the council and Speedwell to do orienteering. We will have a new orienteering course in the castle site, which the council has facilitated. That is part of our work with Speedwell. It manages that for us. We meet it, and that is how that is done. We also have links through our extended schools work in the school. That is a much narrower focus on attainment; we are looking there at resourcing together and things like literacy and numeracy projects. We are sharing experience. We work with Border Arts, which is a local cross-community group in Castlederg. We do different projects with it. We link in with Strabane District Council, and we have worked in the past with the Donegal and Strabane partnerships. We have accessed funding from the Riverine project. We also work with the PSNI, and the primary schools come together through safety projects at different stages. We also go on field trips together in years 6 and 7; we do outdoor pursuits and visits together.

Libby and I are involved in the Strabane principals' cluster. We meet regularly. There is also work around area learning partnerships for the secondary schools. It is a whole sharing of expertise. It is not a perfect model, but the whole emphasis is on children visiting each other's schools and sharing. It is built right from nursery through to P7.

Ms Libby Robinson (Edwards Primary School, Castlederg): I arrived in Castlederg seven years ago. I have wider experience of being in London and Spain. I also did some advisory work on the board. When I got the job, my friends and family said, "You're not going to Castlederg, Libby, because it always gets negative press. There are 31 unsolved murders". There was real negativity. I arrived in the school and found all this amazing work going on. There have been lots of contentious parades in the town, and I wondered whether that would affect people's attitudes towards our programme and whether any parents would pull their kids out. There have been no abstentions on the part of any of the parents from any of the programme in our schools because it has been so effective. The parades passed off with silent protest, but everybody had the right to march and the right to protest. They all passed off peacefully. I attribute that to all the work that has been embedded and done at grass-roots level in the schools, thanks to the support of the Speedwell Trust. It is so effective because it is a whole-school approach. It is cross-curricular and diverse. It includes teacher development. It networks with the wider community, and it includes the environment as well.

The Chairperson (Miss M McIlveen): How close are the two schools geographically?

Mr McGurk: We are within walking distance. It would not even be a mile. Would it?

Ms L Robinson: No. It is probably half a mile.

Mr McGurk: We often just walk across for projects. During bad weather, we bus the younger children down and up. We are both town schools.

The Chairperson (Miss M McIlveen): Are both schools sustainable as regards their numbers?

Mr McGurk: Yes.

Ms L Robinson: We are actually oversubscribed.

Mr McGurk: Both schools are close to maximum enrolment and growing.

The Chairperson (Miss M McIlveen): That is all very positive. Thank you. I will direct my questions to your comments on the definition of shared education.

You were critical of the ministerial advisory group's definition, because you want it to include cross-community collaboration. Are you aware of the definition that is currently being considered by the Minister that shared education means the education together of those of different religious belief or political opinion and those who are experiencing significantly socio-economic deprivation and those who are not, which will be secured by the working together and cooperation of two or more relevant providers? What are your thoughts on that as a working definition?

Mr McClean: That must be a more recent definition, and I would definitely welcome it. There is a danger of losing sight of the overall goal of promoting good relations between the two communities here. If that is not clear, that sharing could take place between schools from both traditions, as I mentioned earlier, it is essential to have that clarity in the definition.

In a survey by the Department of Education last year, out of the 568 schools that replied, 306 or 54% replied that they took part in cross-community activities. That means that 46% did not. There needs to be a clarity of definition to ensure that all children have the opportunity to participate, and if it is shared education, it needs to involve our two communities.

I know that there are different socio-economic areas and areas of ethnic minorities, but we cannot lose sight of the goal. Our ethos is that our two traditions need to share. If our society is going to progress more constructively than we have done previously, that needs to be in it specifically.

The Chairperson (Miss M McIlveen): A growing number of our population would consider themselves to be other or neither. How do you think they could be incorporated within that?

Mr McClean: That may well be, but, in the education system, they are either in controlled schools or maintained schools — well, over 90% are. So, whether they describe themselves as other, they are bracketed into one or other religious grouping. There needs to be opportunities, even for those who describe themselves as other, to meet the other and form friendships or relationships, or at least have the opportunity to do so.

The Chairperson (Miss M McIlveen): OK. In your written presentation, you recommended that:

and evaluation. How do you think that that could be achieved for shared education?

Mr McClean: I suppose that it is up to the Department of Education to do that in whatever way it will do it. All schools need to monitor exactly what they are doing and have good evidence to show what they are doing. Many schools might say that they are doing shared education, but they may not be doing the shared education that they are supposed to do.

We go out to schools every day and have our monitoring forms. The schools in Castlederg do it all the time, and they are able to say what gender the children are and whether their background is Protestant, Catholic or other. They have all that evidence. They can show that they can actually do that and what backgrounds the children are from. We also look for evaluation every day to see whether it is working and, if it is not working, what we can do to improve it and to reflect on how we deliver the project. With the new shared education project, the Department, through the boards, will be looking at its own practices, and we think that it is essential that it does some effective monitoring.

Ms L Robinson: Can I just add that it should be included at inspection level? I had an inspection last year, and there was no mention of all the good practice going on. If it is included at inspection level, it will happen.

The Chairperson (Miss M McIlveen): You reflected that you have a cocktail of funding, but you do not receive any funding from the Department of Education. Is there a reason for that? Have you approached the Department, or have you approached it, and it had declined?

Mr McClean: We got funding until 2007, and a lot of other organisations similar to ours got funding until 2010-11, when the schools community relations programme finished. With the ending of that, a lot of organisations like ours went to the wall, and with them went a lot of good experience. We felt that there was still an existing need, particularly when we get schools coming to us every year asking us to help them to facilitate activities, particularly those that may be sensitive. Brian talked about flags, symbols and emblems, and he talked about diversity and religion and visiting different churches and different sports. A lot of teachers do not feel very confident or comfortable in their own communities dealing with some of those issues. Yesterday, we were in Tobermore, and they have had a lot of problems recently with issues to do with different cultures and flags, and they want to address that. They are doing a project with their neighbouring school in Maghera, but they did not feel comfortable talking about contentious issues, and they were delighted that we could go in and do that. We feel that there definitely is a need for us to do that.

The Chairperson (Miss M McIlveen): Can I ask everyone to check that their phone is switched off, because a phone is interfering with the recording? I apologise for that.

You also listed some barriers and enablers. Do you consider the ultimate outcome of shared education to be about reconciliation or about educational benefits?

Mr McClean: I think that it is a combination. I think that, ultimately, it is about the young person — the child — and their educational attainment. However, I think that both can complement each other. You can have adequate and very good shared education programmes that incorporate and improve educational attainment and outcomes. I believe that it is important that children get the opportunity to learn together, and through that, reconciliation outcomes will also improve. It is a combination.

The Chairperson (Miss M McIlveen): I have a question for the schools. You have obviously witnessed educational and societal benefits in practice. Which of them would be a priority for you in schools?

Mr McGurk: I think it is both. We have not mentioned the fact that part of the curriculum is personal development and mutual understanding (PDMU), so a lot of the work that we are discussing here is embedded in the curriculum. The work that we do enhances that. Whatever religious curriculum or PDMU curriculum you use, you look at diversity and equality and all those things, but then it is a work in practice, because we have the outworkings with sharing with Edwards, which is our neighbouring school. If there were other schools of different traditions or whatever, we would work with them as well.

We talked about the Speedwell projects; however, we do not just take the Speedwell project down and let it facilitate for us. We pick and choose, and we remodel the programmes where we see as appropriate. I meet with Ms Robinson and discuss our projects. Aside from that, the other types of sharing that we have, such as extended schools, have a very clear focus on educational attainment. I think both things are important. Do you agree?

Ms L Robinson: Yes, and so we extended the programme, about three years ago, to run right down to nursery. When I arrived, it ran from year 4 to year 7, so we took it on a practical level through topics on birds and mini-beasts, so that it was enhancing the learning as well.

Mr McGurk: The teachers are building that into their planning and they are working on their science projects, 'The world around us' or whatever but, as I said, it is the added value that pupils are getting in working with children in their own community because of the way the school situation is.

I would also add that we are not funded. We do not access funding from the Department at all. We either work with Speedwell or bid for money ourselves. We have approached and looked at CRED. It did not work for us; it did not do what we wanted it to do.

Ms L Robinson: It was too narrow.

Mr McGurk: We wanted to manage the project ourselves, and look at the curriculum that we wanted to give our children. Therefore, we just felt that CRED was not the right direction to go in. We have sent teachers out on training, etc, and one year, I think you applied?

Ms L Robinson: We did not get it.

Mr McGurk: We did not access funding. I would say that, yes, there have to be outcomes from what you are trying to do, but bringing people together is a skill in itself. It is a natural thing: children will generally bond. As they work through the school together, you can see real development. Border Arts did a survey; did they work with Peace III?

Mr McClean: International Fund for Ireland (IFI).

Mr McGurk: They said that, in Castlederg, 200 households were surveyed, and 74% of returns said that community relations were either "good" or "very good"; 68% of the households said that they would engage in cross-community activities. We do not over-publicise our work or anything; it is all quietly done, and what we are trying to do, as educators, is develop the children. That is the other thing: the responsibility as teachers comes from the teacher. It is not something that you add on. As a teacher, I look at what my children need. My school is situated in Castlederg, where there is a history of division, so, as a teacher, that is what my role and vocation is. Ms Robinson shares the same thing. Regardless of what funding is available or whatever files are on your desk, that comes from the teacher, and that is why our project is successful. It is not perfect, either; we know that there are things that we need to change in it.

Mr McClean: I would just like to add that, in this project, I access funding through the Tudor Trust based in London. It is a two-year project. We put together a plan to work with four schools on a whole-school basis. We work with the schools to develop what they thought was the best way to deal with it, with education and reconciliation outcomes in mind. This is a work in progress, and I am delighted to report to funders that it has been very successful.

The Chairperson (Miss M McIlveen): Once that funding is concluded, is there still a legacy left to the school?

Mr McClean: There is.

Ms L Robinson: It is in teacher development.

Mr McClean: We are planning to do teacher development and teacher training this summer, so that teachers can take it on board and, hopefully, it can become a little more sustainable in future.

Mr McGurk: We have been at this juncture before. For example, the schools community relations project stopped, and we continue to fund ourselves or bid for money by ourselves. If this project, funded by Tudor Trust money, runs out, we will sit down and look at what there is and, if we have to, we will generate the income from within our own schools, because we see the value in it. We are not really tied to funding, per se.

Ms L Robinson: Yes, I think you can always access money somewhere. It is great to have the expertise and the skills of the Speedwell Trust to facilitate it.

The Chairperson (Miss M McIlveen): That is very positive. Maybe we should bring you along to a budget meeting, if you can always access money. [Laughter.]

OK. Thank you very much.

Mrs Overend: It is good to see you this morning. You do not work just with the pupils, but you continue to work with the teachers to give them guidance to continue the shared education after a project is finished, is that correct?

Mr McClean: In this project, that is part of the plan. In the first year, we will establish it and organise it and work with teachers to set it up. In the second year, we will act in a mentoring role to teachers so that they will take more of a lead so that, hopefully, in the future, with adequate funding, the project can move on on its own. That is how we envisage the project working.

Mrs Overend: That sounds good. So, it is more than just one-off projects.

Mr McClean: Definitely. This particular project is whole-school over two years. We have also delivered projects with European funding. Children came together on six occasions, and we delivered teacher training to try to embed it more in schools and to expand it a bit more to give teachers more confidence and to give the children a real opportunity to make positive relationships with their peer group from the other school.

Mrs Overend: Do you feel that you have more opportunity going down that way, and maybe that is something that you will do more of?

Mr McClean: We would love to do that because we feel that we have the expertise to do it, but it all depends on funding. Coming down the line, we hope that part of the Peace IV criteria will be shared education, and we hope that they will support us in that field.

Mrs Overend: OK. Is that how you feel you will fall into the Department of Education's future plans for shared education? How do you think you will fit into its aspirations?

Mr McClean: We are not sure about how we will fit into it, although we would love to play a role in it. In 2010, when the schools community relations programme finished, we felt that, to quote a phrase, they threw the baby out with the bath water because a lot of expertise was lost. Since then, we have been going to schools all the time, and teachers have been telling us that they would like more support, training and help in the delivery of some of their programmes because they feel ill equipped to do so. We feel that there is a role there for us to work with schools and teachers to use our expertise, knowledge and resources. We have considerable resources to help teachers to work through it. In four years' time, when the money from shared education runs out, schools will become a little bit more sustainable, but we feel that they need assistance.

Mrs Overend: I agree. If that is a goal of the Department, you would think that it should provide support and guidance; you are the experts, so it should be bringing in the experts or taking advice.

Mr McClean: We have a lot of experience and we work with a lot of schools. Schools will not come back to you if they do not feel any value in it. Every year, they keep coming back and asking for assistance.

Mrs Overend: How do you target where the need is? Do schools come to you? The Department will have to figure out who needs support to enhance shared education. How do you —

Mr McClean: For the shared education project, schools will submit a proposal to facilitate it and then access funding to deliver it. How do we do it? Every year, we hold a teachers' information workshop. Usually, between 30 and 40 teachers come along to see what is available and how they can improve what they are doing in their schools and see whether there is any funding or help that we can give them. Our reputation goes before us.

Mrs Overend: So, you get the word out to all schools that you feel you can reach.

Mr McClean: Yes. Some schools do not take part in shared education for geographical reasons or because they are not in a position to deliver it; however, most schools in the mid-Ulster area and in the areas that we work in are taking part.

Mrs Overend: OK. Thanks very much.

Mr Lunn: Thanks for your presentation. The work that you two are doing is terrific. You have outlined to us the whole programme and how you graduate through it. It is marvellous. That is from somebody who would, perhaps, favour more emphasis on the integrated model. You could not diminish that at all; it was terrific. Obviously, that applies to you as well, Eamon. Where do your kids go when they leave primary level? Is there any evidence that they go to the local integrated school? Is there one?

Mr McGurk: Generally, children from the Catholic maintained sector will go the Catholic schools. The choices are grammar or secondary schools in Omagh or Strabane. We have a diverse choice, because Castlederg is between Strabane and Omagh. The issue for me is this: what happens to all that work at the next level?

Ms L Robinson: My chair of governors also chairs a local high school. Last year, he had lots of enquiries from the Catholic community to come into the local high school, so I know that there is a proposal now for more shared and integrated at that level.

Mr Lunn: Is that the high school in Castlederg?

Ms L Robinson: Yes.

Mr Lunn: I am not all that familiar with Castlederg.

Ms L Robinson: That is the next stage of development.

Mr Lunn: Do any of your pupils come here? I presume that it is reasonably handy.

Mr McGurk: My average class size is 35, which is what I have at P7. One or two pupils come to Drumragh annually, but children in the maintained sector will generally follow that pathway of education. That is my experience.

Ms L Robinson: I do not think that Drumragh's criteria lend themselves geographically to the area. There might be a problem with —

Mr Nigel Frith (Drumragh Integrated College): There is no geographical bias in our criteria.

Ms L Robinson: I think that it is always oversubscribed as well, so there were definitely reasons. I know that some people thought about it, and there were reasons why they did not access it.

Mr Lunn: I am not trying to trip you up. I just think that if there is evidence that, following all your good work, some parents feel moved to follow it through and encourage their children to think about the integrated school, it is further evidence of how well it is working. That is all I am saying. Eamon, do you do any work with integrated schools?

Mr McClean: We do; we work with integrated schools in Dungannon, Cookstown, Banbridge and Magherafelt. The primary schools are very keen to participate in projects that will help the children to mix with and meet children from another sector. We did a lot of work in Phoenix primary school in Cookstown. There is a three-way partnership there between Cookstown primary, Holy Trinity and Phoenix. That model is being driven very carefully by the three principals, and feedback from teachers, children and parents is very positive. I think that they are moving on to try to do a bigger project in Cookstown.

Some of the integrated schools are very open, as you probably are, about diversity and flags, symbols and emblems, but they are keen to learn about our diversity as well. My child goes to an integrated school. It is not just a matter of sitting together with children from a different tradition; it is also about looking at and exploring our diversity and our community. Many integrated schools are very interested and keen to do that.

Mr Lunn: Last year, my grandson, who has just turned 10, told me that his primary, which is controlled, had been working with a local Catholic maintained primary, St Kieran's, and that they had had a day out in Parkanaur.

Mr McClean: That is right.

Mr Lunn: It has only dawned on me now that it was probably something to do with you. It was St Kieran's and Ballycarrickmaddy. He said that it was "class". I do not think that the sociological benefit had entirely dawned on him at that age, but it must sink in to some extent. Fair play to you.

Mr Eric Reaney (Speedwell Trust): I will address Trevor as "Trevor", because we have known each other over the years. One of your comments made me think that we focus very much on the work and projects that are done through the schools, but the question of what comes after that is interesting for Speedwell and its location in a superb forested area at Parkanaur.

Their summer programmes, and other programmes such as Halloween activities, attract people who were there often many years before. That is quite interesting. Some of your volunteers, I think you would agree, Eamon, were with you at primary stage, but when they are in teacher training or looking at the next stage of their career plan, they come back and volunteer.

To be involved in such hands-on work is very good for a young person, but it is also very good for them to be able to share with whatever experience comes after. Sometimes, it is hard to get the statistics to prove that the practice is happening on a year-by-year basis.

Mr Lunn: You work a lot in the Dungannon area because that is where you formed. Did you work with the two Moy primary schools?

Mr McClean: We did. We have done and still are. We find that their relationship is very good. They do a lot of work together, and we come in and facilitate programmes with them. I know about their project. Our role is to assist the schools in facilitating good relations between them.

Mr Lunn: Some of us find the proposed outcome of the Moy situation a bit strange, to be honest: two schools under one roof, two boards of governors, two uniforms and separate classes. I hope that it is not a sustainable solution; I hope that over the years common sense will prevail.

You must have been involved down the years in the coming together of those two schools. I do not want to put you on the spot, but do you not think that a more obvious solution would have been to bring those two schools together into one school?

Mr McClean: There are different opinions on that; you highlighted that yourself. In my opinion, it is a long-term project, and I hope, as you said, that over 10 or 15 years common sense will prevail and that sharing will take place in that building.

Mr Lunn: Sharing will take place in the building.

Mr McClean: Yes, but more integration will take place as well over the years. Something needed to be done so that the controlled school in that town did not close and the children bussed elsewhere. It was a goodwill gesture as well to try to keep the balance right in the town and to keep both schools in the town.

Mr Lunn: You are not funded by the Department. Do you get co-operation or encouragement from the Department?

Mr McClean: We generally do not have much contact with the Department.

Mr Lunn: I thought so. I wish you well. I am not being critical at all, but I am slightly discouraged by the fact that the outcome of all your good work does not translate into more. In every poll, 75% to 80% parents say that if there was an integrated solution in their area they would use it. Even after the encouragement that you give your children — I do not mean encourage them to go to an integrated school but the encouragement to see both sides and learn from each other — I am surprised that there is not a bigger impetus or momentum towards that. You say that some of your children go to play at the local high school, and that is fine but —

Ms L Robinson: I suppose that, long term, it will probably become an integrated post-primary. The long-term vision of many people in the area is probably that it will become integrated.

Mr McClean: Trevor may not know that the Catholic secondary closed down.

Ms L Robinson: Right, you do not know the geography of it.

Mr Lunn: I did not know that the Catholic secondary school had closed down.

Mr McGurk: I am the principal of a school in the Catholic maintained sector — that is where my roots are — but that does not preclude me from developing cross-community relations. I have no control over parental choice. I sometimes feel that people try to squeeze cross-community relations into primary schools, and we do not want to face up to the fact that perhaps we need to address it at second level. I cannot talk for second-level schools, but sometimes I think that some of the things that we are asked to address at primary level are not age-appropriate. Parents have the choice of some very good schools to pick from because of our geographical location. We have Strabane and Omagh, and, every year, about 60% of our kids, maybe more, go to grammar schools. That is a big thing, and that is parental choice as well. That may preclude people from applying to integrated schools.

Mr Lunn: Finally, is there a sector, Eamon, in Northern Ireland that you would like to see more actively engaged in what you do?

Mr McClean: By "sector", do you mean controlled, maintained or Irish-medium?

Mr Lunn: I can put it another way. Do you get much encouragement from the grammar schools?

Mr McClean: We do not have much involvement with grammar schools; most of our work is done in primary schools. We do some work at second level, but we do not have much involvement with grammar schools.

Mr Lunn: Is that by choice or because they do not express much interest?

Mr McClean: They do not express much interest. We work with Aughnacloy College, St Joseph's College in Coalisland and St Ciaran's College in Ballygawley, but the bulk of our work is done at primary level.

Mrs Overend: In mid-Ulster, there is one grammar school, the Rainey, and it is already naturally integrated. There are no other grammar schools in mid-Ulster.

Mr Lunn: I was not making that point at all. From what you say, the work that you are doing with the grammar sector is largely with the Catholic-maintained grammar sector.

Mr McClean: Our work is really confined to the primary area, and, on, occasion, we work with second-level local schools, but not so much with grammars.

Mr Lunn: Fair enough. Thanks very much.

The Chairperson (Miss M McIlveen): I do think that it is difficult to draw conclusions in relation to what happens at post-primary level in the area outside of what happens in Drumragh, given the fact that we have not had any conversations with those schools. That would be difficult for us to do today.

Mr Newton: I thank the members for coming today. I have not met the Speedwell Trust before, so it is a new experience for me. I will ask a couple of questions of the Speedwell Trust and then maybe one to the two principals. When the Chair was reading out the definition as being refined at this time, she indicated that a socio-economic aspect was being taken into consideration now. Indeed, you placed your emphasis on the two main traditions mixing.

It is not peculiar to inner-city areas where there is underachievement; nevertheless, many schools in difficult inner-city areas have suffered much over the years. Could you see the potential in a definition that would include the socio-economic aspect of maybe a controlled school from an affluent area working with a controlled school from a difficult, challenging area? The Catholic maintained sector could do exactly the same, and that would see the benefits of shared education addressing those problems.

Mr McClean: It is definitely not one size fits all. Considering the Speedwell Trust's ethos, mission and constitution, we wanted a specific line in the definition to allow children from both our main traditions to take part in activities. I know where you are coming from regarding underachievement, particularly in urban areas. That is a specific problem that needs to be addressed, and the Department needs to look at whether that would involve primary schools and second-level grammars working together across the economic areas.
I am not sure whether it could be done through shared education. It is a serious problem that needs to be addressed, but we are looking for the definition to include reconciliation outcomes. As you know, we are a society emerging from conflict, and we would hope if there is a huge amount of money being pumped into shared education, that it involves the two main communities. I do not personally have a lot of experience working in the areas that you refer to, but we think that our two main traditions should primarily be taking part in shared education.

Mr Newton: There is the Catholic maintained sector and the controlled sector, but we are sitting in a school that has achieved much and which has a huge amount to share with other schools that are not in the integrated sector. Why would it not be possible, within your definition, for a school such as Drumragh to become involved with a Catholic maintained school or a controlled school under shared education?

Mr McClean: There is no reason why it cannot. It can, and I hope that there will be a possibility that schools —

Mr Newton: That is not the two distinct traditions.

Mr McClean: Ninety-two per cent of our schools are divided along religious lines, and 6% or 7% are in the integrated sector. However, there is nothing precluding schools, like the integrated sector, mixing and sharing with any other sector. We work with schools in Cookstown, Dungannon, Banbridge and Magherafelt. We facilitated a programme last year between the integrated and Irish-medium sectors, and they shared the experiences of the Irish-medium sector. It is possible for the four sectors to share their experiences and views. In saying that, 92% of schools are affiliated with either the controlled or the maintained sector, and that is where we would like the focus to be.

Mr Newton: OK. Can I ask the two principals — I greatly admire what you are doing and thank you for it — about the good work that they do inside the school? Do you see any evidence of that happening outside the school? Is it influencing the communities in Castlederg to mix and to work together on projects, other than school projects?

Ms L Robinson: We hire the Alley Theatre at the end of every term for a huge dance project. That is facilitated through Border Arts, and all the parents come together and get involved in it, so yes, there is evidence of it.

Mr McGurk: I go back to the survey produced by Border Arts. Seventy-four per cent of the population of the town believe that there are good or very good relationships. A lot of things are outside our control because children traditionally meet at schools, sporting clubs and certain organisations.

We do not have control over modelling that, but there is a lot of sharing between the children. Our aspiration is that children who leave our schools will have made friends, developed an opinion on people from the other side of the community and will be good citizens moving forward. Beyond that, it reflects on Northern Ireland in general. It is fair to say that the children select the activities.

Ms L Robinson: I am thinking of all the activities outside school in Castlederg. There is a very successful drama club, and kids from both sides of the community go to that. They develop their confidence and self-esteem through putting on plays and go the local feis for verse-speaking. It is very successful. Parents use shared childcare facilities run by a local community group.

Mr Lunn: I just want to clarify what you said about Castlederg High School and its future. Did I pick up from what you said that the ambition is that it would perhaps become — use whatever word you like — mixed, integrated or amalgamated? Are you looking towards an integrated solution in Castlederg?

Ms L Robinson: I was not aware that you did not know the geography. St Eugene's closed down, leaving one high school, which I know has had lots of enquiries from the Catholic community. I think that the vision would be for that.

Mr Lunn: Whose vision?

Ms L Robinson: The board of governors. It had quite a few enquiries last year and this year from the Catholic community, and it is looking at addressing that.

Mr McGurk: I cannot move away from the fact that most of our kids go on to Catholic maintained education. They are satisfied with it, and it is high-quality, so they opt for that. There probably was an opportunity in Castlederg 10 years ago. There have been a lot of closures there because of the sustainability issue. When I went to the town about 11 or 12 years ago, there were about12 schools; there are maybe seven now. People are looking at solutions now, but, looking back, maybe we should have done so then. That is the reality. There are only a certain number of pupils. We share with Castlederg High School on sporting projects and so on, and I have strong links with the principal etc.

Ms L Robinson: It is a natural progression.

Mr Lunn: You know how an integrated solution has to come about. You seem to be quite good at surveys in Castlederg. It would be interesting to see a survey of the population's opinion on that proposed solution.

Mr McGurk: I think that about 70% indicated that they would opt for an integrated solution. As I said, I am here as principal of St Patrick's, and Catholic education exists across the world. That is how I view it. It is here, and my job in the school is to meet the demands and needs of the community. I feel that we do that adequately.

Mr Lunn: I am sure that you are. Absolutely.

Mr McGurk: It goes back to parental choice. We encourage parents to look at all schools — in Strabane, Omagh and the integrated school here. That has been borne out in practice, but it is down to parental choice.

Mr Lunn: I am with you on parental choice, and I have absolutely no hostility towards the faith schools or the Catholic maintained sector. I am encouraged by your saying that there is, perhaps, a feeling that this would be the inevitable, logical solution.

The Chairperson (Miss M McIlveen): Thank you for your written presentation and for coming to speak to us this morning. It was very interesting and an important part of our inquiry.