Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr McGlone): With us are Mr Kevin Kingston, the president of the Northern Ireland Chamber of Commerce; Mr Stephen McCully, vice-president; Ms Ann McGregor, chief executive; and Ms Maureen O'Reilly, who is an independent economist. You are all very welcome. It is good to see you again, Kevin. Should I address you as "Mr President"?

Mr Kevin Kingston (Northern Ireland Chamber of Commerce): No, it is not that formal.

The Chairperson (Mr McGlone): Thank you very much for making your paper available to us. This is a very important issue and, hopefully, the ducks will eventually all line up in a row for us to deliver on this. You have been here before and you are aware of the format. The floor is yours to make an opening statement, and then we will have a question-and-answer session with members.

Mr Kingston: Good morning, and thank you for this opportunity to meet the Committee today. We really value these opportunities to engage directly with our representatives here at Stormont. I am joined this morning by Ann McGregor, who is the chief executive of the Chamber, Maureen O'Reilly, the Chamber's economist, and Stephen McCully, who is vice-president of the Northern Ireland Chamber of Commerce.

I trust, ladies and gentlemen, that you know the Chamber as an organisation reasonably well. We are the largest independent business network in Northern Ireland. We exist to help our members grow, locally and internationally, and to help drive the development of the economy. We represent 1,200 members across Northern Ireland who employ about 100,000 people.

Turning to the subject of the Committee inquiry, I hope that you have all received a copy of our document. With your permission, we would like to summarise that before we move to questions. The first point that we make in the document is that we warmly welcome the progress that has been made on corporation tax in recent months. We believe that this is a major opportunity to drive economic growth in Northern Ireland. For us, the devolution of corporation tax is about jobs, creating opportunities on the ground and creating changed communities.

In our briefing document, we focus on what we believe are the actions needed to maximise this opportunity. Political stability is a crucial factor that has a huge impact on business confidence, which, ultimately, is a key ingredient in driving investment, growth and jobs. We highlight the urgent need to resolve the date and rate issues; business needs to be clear on what rate will be applied and when it will be available in order to begin planning for investment and growth. We highlight five areas that we believe are crucial to building the right foundation for growth following corporation tax devolution: skills, competitiveness, exports, infrastructure and supporting investment. I will ask Ann to comment on skills and infrastructure; Stephen on competitiveness; Maureen on exports; and I will finish briefly on supporting investment.

Ms Ann McGregor (Northern Ireland Chamber of Commerce): Thank you. First, I want to talk about the development of the skills and ambitions of our people. Preparing young people for the world of work, investing in the skills of those already in work and improving the employability of those not in work, particularly the economically inactive, is really important for Northern Ireland's competitiveness. Businesses can only perform as well as the people who start, work in and run them, and skills shortages are consistently raised as one of the biggest issues facing our members. There is quite a lot of data and good research available. For example, Northern Ireland is ranked twentieth out of 26 countries in skills, behind the UK and Ireland, and that has remained unchanged for a decade.

The supply of skills is not well aligned to labour market needs, and there is a brain drain. Recruiting international workers can also be a challenge because of issues with visas. Members such as Wrightbus have shortages of engineers; companies like CME and Concentrix state that they are short of software specialists and technicians; and Moy Park, Dunbia and others are short of food technologists and R&D staff. It is a feeling across the board. A higher share of our working-age population has low qualifications and low levels of literacy and numeracy, and many young people are not really equipped for the world of work. There is a shortage of graduates across a number of key areas, including management, software development, ICT and STEM. There is already pressure, and there will be additional pressure after the reduction of corporation tax. We believe that there will be a greater requirement for higher-level skills in the creative arts, managerial and professional roles and computer science, as well as management and leadership.

We make a number of recommendations. First, noting the absence of significant change over the last 10 years, we encourage the Committee to make sure that the planned skills barometer is put in place and that there are strong targets set for reskilling. Secondly, prioritising investment in further and higher education is really important. Both FE and HE are facing cuts, around 15% for HE and 12% for FE, which will reduce drastically both the number of courses and students. There must be actions to increase the inflow of highly skilled, experienced migrant and diaspora workers. We also need to upskill the low skilled and improve basic literacy and numeracy. We are suggesting prioritising the budget in those areas, but upskilling the existing workforce will be important as well. Actions to encourage businesses to invest are important, particularly in R&D but also in the supply chain opportunities that will emerge and in export expertise or international sales experience.

Those are immediate short-term actions that we recommend. In the longer term, we would like support for year 2 of any apprenticeship scheme launched this year. We would love to get access to the 2014 careers review. Preparation for the world of work, whether it is enterprise modules in HE and FE or a business governor, is very important for the young people of Northern Ireland. That is our skills piece.

Turning to infrastructure, a world-class economy needs world-class infrastructure to support economic growth. Businesses need certainty that crucial improvements will be delivered in transport, energy, telecoms and premises.

After skills, the area we get most feedback on through our quarterly economic survey (QES) from members is infrastructure. We have done various pieces of research that we can tell you about. There are issues for us there, including the failure to invest in the capacity and maintenance of key routes such as the Westlink connection and the A5 dualling to Londonderry and Aughnacloy. We have really good broadband coverage, and there has been an excellent programme for rural broadband, but uptake is an issue, as are mobile connections. In the short term, we need more office space. We are prioritising grade-A office and industrial space, and demand is likely to intensify. Organisations like the port and harbour are engaged in good activities, which should be encouraged.

The York Street interchange really needs to go as fast as possible, literally — I know there is likely to be an inquiry. Investment in public transport, particularly the Dublin rail link, to enhance connectivity and mobility, is still an issue. We also support the further roll-out of broadband. There is good access to high-speed internet 93% of the time, but to 3G and 4G only 28·5% of the time. There is still work to be done in that area. In the long term, we need more aviation capacity. We should also look at investing in world-class digital infrastructure like 5G and at innovative techniques to fund investments like the Scottish Futures Trust model.

Mr Stephen McCully (Northern Ireland Chamber of Commerce): I would like to speak briefly on page 7 of the Chamber's submission. This set of actions focuses on the importance of promoting competitiveness in Northern Ireland through short-term and long-term actions, particularly on the cost of doing business. There is no doubt that a more competitive Northern Ireland will attract more investment and jobs, and local businesses will be able to compete more successfully, both nationally and internationally. The Economic Advisory Group's report on competitiveness in Northern Ireland produced in June 2013 concluded that Northern Ireland was forty-second of 145 countries. The report highlighted a number of weaknesses, such as access to finance and tax rates. As Kevin said, good progress has been made and, in the fullness of time, this will enable Northern Ireland to climb the league table.

In addition, our members tell us that they are concerned about business rates, specifically the future of industrial derating; the cost of energy, particularly for more intensive electricity users; and the cost of compliance with new regulations or red tape as legislation is transposed and applied locally. We recommend that actions in the short term to improve competitiveness should include taking the next important steps to set a rate and date, as Kevin mentioned. There are important actions to address the security of electricity supply in Northern Ireland by strengthening interconnection and improving electricity price alignment of all businesses, relative to an EU average. We also want to see business rates frozen, including the industrial derating arrangement, through to 2017 and active consideration given to the outworking of the recommendations of the DETI review of regulation and red tape, including, for example, the appointment of a regulation business champion.

In the longer term, we believe that there should be a more integrated plan for electricity network development to facilitate business growth in a timely way. Also, work should be done with Brussels and Westminster to stem the flow of changes in rules and regulations that impact business without delivering value to customers or consumers, nationally and internationally. Finally, we believe that active consideration should be given to further enterprise zones, like the new pilot enterprise zone in Coleraine, with rates relief, capital allowances, simplified planning and world-class infrastructure. That is my brief summary. I will now hand over to Maureen, who will comment on exports.

Ms Maureen O’Reilly: The Chamber's third action, as you can see on page 8, focuses on the need to support indigenous business growth, particularly growing Northern Ireland's trade potential nationally, because it is an issue selling to GB, and internationally. That is a particularly important issue for Northern Ireland and for the Chamber of Commerce because the starting point is that we have such a small economy and we need to look outside it very quickly to grow. It is interesting that, in every quarterly economic survey, competitiveness is a much bigger issue for Northern Ireland businesses than for the wider UK businesses who respond. It means more and better jobs and productivity improvements and attractiveness in FDI. There are so many pluses to try to encourage businesses here to export.

The difficulty is that we have a very small business and export base. We are the smallest of the UK regions in what we produce. That is because we have only 120,000 businesses here. Scale is a particular issue; we do not have very many large businesses with 250-plus employees compared with the UK average. We have a very small export base as well. For example, we have fewer than 1,600 goods exporters, which is one of the measures that we have used. Again, that is the smallest number across the UK regions. I am sure that you are all aware of the statistic on how dependent we are on a few large exporters. Just 10 firms account for half of our manufacturing exports; that is how dependent we are on a small number of large firms.

Businesses and the export base have been very hard hit by the recession here. The export base suffered particularly because of the fact that we rely so heavily on sales to the Republic of Ireland. In the build-up to the recession, a lot of that was related to manufacturing businesses linked in with the construction sector down South. There was a big fallout there. For example, between 2008 and 2009, we lost a fifth of the value of our exports in that one year alone. The number of new businesses that have been coming on stream has been falling as well.

A particular issue at the moment is exchange rates, which are not helping our exporters. In the latest quarterly economic survey, which will be published next week, that comes across quite strongly. Obviously, that is an issue for the wider UK economy too.

Last May, the Chamber held a conference named "Growing Something Brilliant", which some of you may have attended. There was a very high attendance, and we asked businesses what were the issues for them as potential or existing exporters. We had a couple of hundred responses, which were equally split between the two, and, as you can see from the document, there are some different issues and some issues in common between potential and existing exporters. They had finance in common between the two, particularly for potential exporters, finding and understanding what new customers might mean for them. The Chamber's particular focus is on trying to identify potential exporters and work with them. There is a fixed cost to market entry. That is a big issue for exporters, and we try to help potential exporters to get through that.

There are positives to build on after all that, notably the fact that we have a very strong manufacturing sector. There is resilience there in the businesses that have worked through the recession. We are the only region of the UK with a land border with the EU, which works to our advantage, and you can see that in the sales to the South. I know from doing a piece of work around the border region that businesses there trade naturally. It is second nature for them to trade with the South. That is something to work on and scale up.

In respect of recommendations, from the short-term perspective, the Chamber believes that it is critical that very accessible continual support is there for the whole business life cycle from start-up, to growth, to export, again with a particular focus on potential exporters and access to finance. An export action plan is in development at the moment, which the Chamber is very supportive of. The key is that it is focused on businesses, not on types of support but how the businesses actually access that support. That is really important. It needs to be streamlined, visible and effective if it is to work.

A particular issue slightly allied to that that has been raised by members is procurement. This is an issue that comes up quite regularly, and is about how SMEs participate in the whole procurement process. It should be easier for consortia, for example, to compete for larger public-sector contracts by removing some of the hurdles that exist for small businesses to get together and do that. From experience, the whole procurement issue is very resource-intensive and those costs bear particularly heavily on small businesses compared with large ones.

When it comes to the longer-term objectives, the Chamber would like to see the budget for export support increased, because it believes that it is essential for economic progress here. An issue that you should be aware of that the Chamber has been very much involved with is easy access and affordable air connections to international markets. That should be part of the longer-term plan, although it is obviously an issue that has been addressed in detail over recent months.

That gives you a flavour of the issues and asks around indigenous business growth and exports.

Mr Kingston: Chair, I would just like to finish with points around encouraging investment. Ultimately, the Committee will be aware that investment is what drives growth, and that is what creates jobs at the end of the day. Our sense from members, certainly the message we are getting from the QES, is that business confidence is not yet fully recovered. While consumer confidence is at a seven-year high, businesses are still relatively cautious in outlook. The points that we make in our report are about the need to improve business financial literacy, and helping businesses broaden the range of financing options that they use to make sure they have the right foundation for growth. We talk about planning structures and we suggest that we introduce a set of KPIs for decision-making to help speed up the investment process. We state that we should "Northern Ireland proof" UK finance interventions to make sure that all such support targets real areas of need and specific issues in Northern Ireland. We also believe that there are opportunities to help business-manage cash flow, through better emphasis on prompt payment and the use of electronic settlement, and we encourage continued education around the whole R&D tax credits piece as a useful tool for driving R&D investment. Chair, that is a summary of our document. We are very happy to take questions.

The Chairperson (Mr McGlone): Thank you very much, Kevin. There are a couple of issues I want to come back on, such as the KPIs for decision-making. We have a patchwork quilt of the issues: we touched upon infrastructure, R&D, broadband, mobile communications — a whole plethora of issues. Clearly, investment is a key issue but just as much as anything else, the investment, how you make it, and the strategic delivery of it is important. We were out in Stuttgart a couple of weeks ago to see how the Germans do things, and it is certainly a bit of an eye-opener. A key part of that is planning and strategic drive.

We can all do things better, individually and collectively, but more importantly the political collective: the Executive and the Assembly. What suggestions do you have as to how to put this all together and integrate strategies and policies in regard to where we move the economy and how we move that economy forward? We have the tendency of that bit being in that silo, this bit being in this silo, and we want to make sure that the whole joined-up concept is realised — it is often talked about — for the betterment of the community. Have you any particular suggestions based on your own experienced wisdom?

Mr Kingston: The first thing I would point to is the importance of the entire Executive agreeing that the economy needs to be at the heart of the Programme for Government. If that real commitment is there, that guides and steers much of the thinking of government. We believe very passionately that growth in the economy has the potential to address many of the issues in Northern Ireland.

We talked earlier about corporation tax, for us, being about jobs. It is not simply about growing business. Why do we grow business? We grow business because that creates opportunities for people on the ground. That presents the opportunity to change communities and make a real difference for the electorate across Northern Ireland. It reaches into areas like education, the underprivileged and some of the social challenges we face in Northern Ireland. Therefore, the first thing for us is that the economy has to be at the centre of the Programme for Government, but with the acknowledgement that the reason for that is that we are changing Northern Ireland for the better for all of us by doing that.

The Chairperson (Mr McGlone): Have you specific suggestions as to how it could be done better to integrate that patchwork quilt?

Mr Kingston: From our paper today, you will have seen that, if we take the subject of driving the economy, and corporation tax in particular, there needs to be a joined-up approach for maximising that opportunity. That is, fundamentally, what we are calling for in this document. Much of the challenge that we face in a context of cutbacks and austerity is real and tangible but, at the same time, we need to be thinking about how we allocate resources so that we make the most of the opportunity in front of us. If you take a subject like skills, in the context where resources are tighter and we are working to tighter budgets, we must look at how we prioritise whatever resources we have to make sure that we drive the right skills to encourage economic growth to deliver jobs on the ground and opportunities for all our people in Northern Ireland.

The Chairperson (Mr McGlone): Maureen, geographically, I know where your roots are and that probably influenced what you said about business and doing it with the rest of the island, across the border and such. What you said took me into an area that has been discussed quite a bit over in England as part of the elections. If we were to have what is, to my mind, the crazy situation of withdrawal from Europe, do you have a collective view on that and where would that position us? I know where I am coming from personally and politically as a party representative, but do you have a view on the implications for the North?

Mr Kingston: I will take that one, Chair, if you will allow me. Very clearly, we believe that membership of the EU is critical for business, going forward. We believe that Northern Ireland is particularly exposed to changes. Any changes in this area go to issues of business confidence and impact on issues like corporation tax. I had the opportunity to travel to Washington over St Patrick's Day and talk with not just the Invest NI team out there but with some American business representatives. I know just how important that whole issue of access to the EU is for their planning purposes. Any uncertainty around that will only set back the good work that Invest NI is trying to do at the moment in publicising the opportunities that corporation tax now offers us.

The resounding message from us and our members is that membership of the EU is the right thing for us as a region.

Ms O’Reilly: I should say that that is an issue that has been asked about in the latest quarterly survey. It is not published until next week and it is something that has been asked in a wider UK context. As Kevin suggests, about two in three members believe that the UK should remain part of the EU. There is more detail on that and it will be available next week if you —

The Chairperson (Mr McGlone): When is that going to be available, Maureen?

Ms O’Reilly: Next week.

Ms McGregor: We launch it Monday morning, but we will have the data and I can give it to you on Friday, if you wish.

The Chairperson (Mr McGlone): Good. That would be very interesting.

Mr Kingston: There is an update every quarter, but there is an update on Monday for the most recent survey.

The Chairperson (Mr McGlone): That will be particularly interesting. Thank you for that.

Mr Dunne: Thank you very much, panel, for coming in today. We have enjoyed your presentation so far. I think that we all share your concerns and recognise your enthusiasm for business. One of the issues that you mentioned, Stephen, was the pilot enterprise zone in Northern Ireland. How do you see that working, and what advantages do you think it would bring in creating small businesses?

Mr McCully: It is useful to go back to the original question about how to bring all the components and drivers together. An enterprise zone is an ideal opportunity to focus on the chosen sectoral themes, on the skills agenda and on getting the right infrastructure, start-up incentives and capital allowances to keep the cost of capital as low as possible. Enterprise zones are ideal to pull all the strands of economic development together. They can work in different forms; there are 24 successful enterprise zones in GB, and they follow different themes and have different design characteristics. It is all about spotting where the best opportunities are for economic development and developing the enterprise opportunities around them.

Mr Dunne: Would you like to come in on that, Maureen?

Ms O’Reilly: I just wanted to say what Stephen said. What struck me about the enterprise zones — we had a chat about this — was how different they all were in how they went about things. It might be too early to say how effective they are, but it would be useful to look at the content of the different approaches to enterprise zones in GB just to see what lessons have been learned and what has worked well for them. The kinds of issues that they have addressed come up regularly when our members discuss rates and capital allowances etc.

Mr Kingston: That flexibility could be an important attribute in helping to tackle some of the specific Northern Ireland issues.

Mr Dunne: Is there something there that Invest NI is not addressing at the moment? Are there opportunities here through the enterprise zones that are not being tackled now?

Ms O’Reilly: In fairness, that is entirely different from Invest NI's objectives.

Mr Kingston: Yes, those changes would need to be led by the Executive rather than Invest NI. I am sure that Invest NI would be —

Mr Dunne: Part of it?

Mr Kingston: — well able to sell that globally, were there such an opportunity.

Mr Dunne: OK. Moving on, we have debated energy costs extensively here. I am sure, Stephen, that you can come in on that with your experience of NIE. What is NIE doing to manage costs, especially for businesses?

Mr McCully: Well, I am here on behalf of the Chamber of Commerce —

Mr Dunne: I appreciate that.

Mr McCully: I will swap hats for a brief moment to talk about Power NI. A reliable and affordable energy supply is vital for any economy. Northern Ireland does not have any indigenous sources of fuel, and its remoteness and lack of scale are disadvantages in the context of delivering a secure and affordable electricity or energy supply generally. The regulator's last price comparison confirmed that, for the vast majority of customers in Northern Ireland — domestic customers, SMEs etc — the prices paid are in and around the European average. That is probably not a bad place to be. I accept that prices for more intensive users — I know that you have heard from Manufacturing NI —

Mr Dunne: We have indeed.

Mr McCully: — are out of kilter with that. They are at the higher end of the European continuum. Work was undertaken by the regulator last year to identify the reason behind that, and it is an allocation issue, particularly around infrastructure, network costs and levies. It is interesting that, last week, the regulator published a consultation on addressing one aspect of that, which is the raising of the funds for the energy efficiency programme. The recommendation is that that should be slanted more in favour of larger businesses. That is one step down the route of addressing the allocation issue for more intensive electricity users.

Mr Humphrey: Thank you very much for your presentation. At the outset, you talked about progress in terms of corporation tax being important, and you welcomed that progress, but you will appreciate that we are not actually there.

Mr Kingston: Yes.

Mr Humphrey: In the Chamber's view, if we fail to get corporation tax, how damaging will that be to Northern Ireland's economy, and what is the opportunity cost of that?

Mr Kingston: I will speak both personally and as president of the Chamber on this. From my personal perspective, I have been in business in Northern Ireland for a couple of decades, if not more, at this stage. I have seen so many different initiatives over the course of that period in terms of trying to rebalance the private sector and address the scale of the public sector in Northern Ireland. We have specific issues — legacy issues — which we are tackling at the same time as dealing with an increasingly globalised world economy and the challenges there. For me, corporation tax is the opportunity to change that pattern. It is an opportunity to drive growth by encouraging business investment. The numbers are well documented: we are talking about an extra 30,000 to 40,000 jobs. I keep coming back to the point that, for us, corporation tax is about changing communities. It is about creating jobs and opportunities for our people, and if we can do that, we change Northern Ireland. The scale of the job opportunities that are in front of us with corporation tax is, in my view, the biggest opportunity that we have. It would be beyond a sin to waste that opportunity. It is too big for us to let it slip through our fingers.

Mr Humphrey: Have you personally, then, or the Chamber collectively, been making those views known to political parties?

Mr Kingston: Yes, we have. We have made our views known to, I think, everybody around the Executive table. As I say, we believe it is crucial to the future. We have had significant progress in terms of the devolution of the power, but I take the point that there is still work to be done in actually delivering it on the ground. For us, that goes back to the points we have made about rate and date, about political stability, and about certainty to allow business to get on with the process of planning, investing and creating jobs.

Mr Humphrey: Turning to business tax rates, I was contacted at the weekend by a city centre businessman who will now have a rates bill of £76,000. You have put forward some ideas on how this could be changed, whilst at the same time providing adequate funding for local government to take things forward. What is the Chamber's view on that issue?

Mr McCully: The key focus is around the competitiveness of the region and trying to iron out any regional disadvantages with respect to business tax. There has been a lot of change recently with the revaluation process. There is an opportunity in the year that lies ahead to take stock and to look at the best rating systems going forward to properly incentivise business. Manufacturing has the 30% derating cap, which is very important. Enterprise zones have already been mentioned; there is a business rate break in that concept as well. Collectively, we have to ensure that the business rating system is designed to deliver the right strategic outcome, both for the economy and socially for Northern Ireland as a whole.

Mr Humphrey: You have met the Finance Minister and, I presume, NILGA on these issues, yes?

Mr Kingston: Yes.

Mr Humphrey: Can I ask what the outcome of those conversations was?

Mr Kingston: There are always going to be tensions and prioritisation around how those decisions are made. For us as a Chamber, the priority needs to be on driving economic growth. In particular, what parts of the economy will drive the greatest job creation and be of the greatest economic benefit for all of us across Northern Ireland? We welcome the progress that has been made in the recent revaluation and accept that there are still some challenges and anomalies for individuals that need to be worked through, particularly for certain sectors. The bigger issue for us is what can be done in that entire space around making sure that Northern Ireland is as competitive as possible to drive growth.

Mr Humphrey: As part of your presentation, you mentioned the shortage of skills. You mentioned Wrightbus and the shortage of engineers, Moy Park and food technologists, and the general shortage in IT skills. I absolutely agree that there needs to be a joined-upness in the Northern Ireland economy, both with regional government and local government. Also, given the issue raised, there obviously needs to be a very clear joined-upness between DETI and DEL and the regional colleges and the schools in terms of career choices for young people. Has the Chamber been proactive around that issue?

Ms McGregor: Through our quarterly economic survey, we always get information on the skills, and we bring that information to the attention of DEL and DETI. We welcome the formation, possibly, of a Department for the Economy, which means that there will be more interaction. From a policy viewpoint, we are always bringing that message to DETI and DEL, so yes, I can say that we are. We also responded to the budget review. We always give examples of what the issues are for business, and that is why we are lobbying for university funding and FE funding to be looked at: because they have really strong connections to business. We are a bit concerned about literacy and numeracy, and possibly, for example, there could be more interaction between DE and DEL.

Mr Humphrey: Chairman, have I time for one more?

The Chairperson (Mr McGlone): Just a quickie.

Mr Humphrey: You mentioned the transportation infrastructure and projects that need to be progressed. Can you expand on that?

Ms McGregor: Again, we are bringing the views of our members to you. Businesses getting their product to the harbour, the airports or whatever find that there are areas of the roads that are not optimal, and that is well rehearsed. There are 100,000 cars a day and many more lorries using the link between the M2 and the M3, so that whole piece in Yorkgate slows things down. Also, businesses based out in the regions find that areas around Toome slow them down, whether they are going to Derry, etc, and between Derry and Aughnacloy. Road infrastructure is really important to get your goods to market. Our members repeatedly say that.

Mr Humphrey: Outside of those two, you welcome the progress of the Larne —

Ms McGregor: Yes, it is excellent, and I understand that that will be opening shortly. That will obviously improve the infrastructure there. More of that would be useful. It would be nice to have one around Toome.

Mr Flanagan: Thanks for your presentation. I recently had a very positive and useful engagement with the Chamber, and I hope that that continues. The first thing that you said, and the first thing in your presentation, is that the Chamber believes that we need a stable political environment. Can you elaborate a bit, Kevin, on what that actually means?

Mr Kingston: For us, the issue of political stability goes to business confidence. It is about businesses having the confidence that they can plan for the future and have a broad understanding of what the parameters will be in which they will be making that investment. The current example of corporation tax goes to the rate/date point. Businesses are calling us to find out what that rate will be and when it will be introduced. That ties in to the whole point around political stability, which in turn drives confidence. Should I make an investment? Should I plan out three years for a new factory on the back of the money that I will save from corporation tax? I will be able to plough that back into a few factory, perhaps — or not. People need that confidence and visibility, because significant investment decisions are generally a three- to five-year time period.

Mr Flanagan: How is the threatened referendum on EU membership impacting on business confidence and political stability?

Ms O’Reilly: That is something that businesses are starting to think about, which is why the Chamber, and even the British Chamber, decided to ask about it this quarter. Off the top of my head, I think members are calling to stay as part of the EU. The EU issue is maybe just that wee bit removed in how it impacts on businesses at the moment, as opposed to something like corporation tax, which does have an impact on investment decisions.

Mr Kingston: Once we get through May and the issue really comes to the fore, it is going to become a much bigger issue. In Northern Ireland, we have been very much focused on some of the immediate challenges that we face and the corporation tax debate, which perhaps has led to the EU issue not having the focus that it should have had. I think that in a couple of months it will really be coming to the fore, Phil.

Mr Flanagan: It is maybe a bigger issue between now and May than after that, because the way that people vote between now and May will determine whether there is a referendum or not.

Mr Kingston: Yes.

Mr Flanagan: One issue we have looked at here is redressing regional imbalance. That was a Programme for Government commitment from 2011 to 2015. Have you done any work on how we collectively can attract greater levels of investment into rural areas and encourage businesses to locate and invest in rural communities?

Mr Kingston: Much of what we talk about in this document goes to that point, Phil, in terms of creating the foundation for growth across all of Northern Ireland and not simply in Belfast. Issues such as infrastructure go to connectivity and broadband access outside Belfast. The skills piece goes to availability of the right skills in the north-west and Fermanagh. Those are fundamental points.

Mr Flanagan: I hear what you are saying, but you are talking about a rising tide lifting all boats, and that is not how the world actually works. If you take my area of Fermanagh, in 2013-14 Invest NI brought only three companies to consider investing in the county, and that was despite £92 million spent hosting the G8 that year. A rising tide did not lift the boats in Fermanagh, let alone everywhere, that year. Are there any measures you would consider supporting to address that regional imbalance, as opposed to a blanket approach to improve the overall situation?

Mr Kingston: Creating the right environment is fundamental for all parts of Northern Ireland. The other initiative that we touched on this morning that might be particularly relevant in that context is enterprise zones. Those create opportunities for particular incentives in a particular area, and the opportunity to create clusters of particular industries. Those sorts of specific initiatives could target investment at a geographic area.

Ms McGregor: There is also the issue of indigenous business growth. It is important that we have continuous support across Northern Ireland so that any business going into any area will get the same support. At the minute, we have a start-up programme and then you have access to Invest NI's suite of products and services. If you are a middle business — not quite big and not quite a start-up — the support is confused. We believe there needs to be a Northern Ireland-wide business development programme to help some of those indigenous businesses to grow. There are some really good businesses around the country across the sector that need to grow. Helping them to recruit 10 or 20 more people would be helpful across rural areas.

Mr Flanagan: One of the historical criticisms of Invest NI was that it was only interested in foreign investment. I have seen a sea change in that in the last number of years, and that has been reflected to me by business owners across the North, but there is still a gap between start-up businesses and businesses that move to exporting, and the businesses in between. There have been a number of pilot programmes set up through Invest NI with Fermanagh District Council, such as the Survive and Thrive programme and the Grow and Prosper programme. Those are useful and successful and need to be considered in other areas and be done across the North.

In terms of how Invest NI operates, it is usually given a four-year target, which is broken down into four financial years. Would you support or consider supporting the setting of subregional targets for Invest NI for the creation of jobs in specific subregional areas and the level of investment that it should attract?

Ms McGregor: That would be quite challenging. Employers and inward investors make choices about where they want to be according to where the staff are and the communication is. You also have indigenous businesses. If someone set me a target for creating and growing businesses in Tyrone, where all those great engineering firms are, that would be achievable. However, we have to face it: there are rural areas that have a very low business base, so setting a target for each county and region would be hard. Maybe there is something —

Mr Flanagan: The target does not need to be the same. If an area has a low business base, its target could be fairly low.

Mr Kingston: I guess that that is the crucial point, Phil. It is how the targets are set and in what context. We would not want to drive wrong business decisions, but at the same time we obviously want to make sure that all of Northern Ireland benefits from economic growth. I guess that an awful lot of what you are suggesting comes down to how those targets are set, the detail that they go into for each geographic area and the parameters that Invest NI has to work to.

Ms McGregor: Our councils obviously have a major role to play in that regard. They will have local targets and will be more interested directly in their local areas.

Mr Flanagan: The final point that I want to make is on the cost of doing business. You mentioned industrial derating on a number of occasions. As far as I am concerned, that is not on the table. I have not heard anybody mention changing the current policy, so, if I was you, I would not get too exercised about that or remind people that that policy exists.

Mr Frew: Raise the hare.

The Chairperson (Mr McGlone): That has reminded me about something that I was going to ask about: the review of business rates. We were told that there would be winners and losers on that, and I know that we are probably picking up on the losers. Have you done any research among your membership to find out how that —

Ms McGregor: Unfortunately, we have not, but we could do that quite easily for you.

The Chairperson (Mr McGlone): Just as an aside, that would be very helpful.

Ms McGregor: We can ask that in the next survey.

The Chairperson (Mr McGlone): Picking up on some of the stuff that Phil was questioning you on, I want to ask about the necessary requirements for a business if it comes to an area. Underinvestment in infrastructure or underinvestment in, or a lack of, grade-A office accommodation in an area — straight away, before an investor comes, those may well be absolutes for them. Have you had a chance to have a look at the report on grade-A office accommodation? If we do not have the space to put people in and investors are hopefully knocking down the door to get here, that will provide a major challenge for us. If you have looked at the report, do you have particular solutions for that question of grade-A accommodation? I am sure that maybe you, Kevin, wearing your professional hat, come into contact with some potential providers of such accommodation.

Mr Kingston: Chair, you are absolutely right. For us, one of the major issues as we look ahead to the next few years is the availability of grade-A office space in Belfast and in the regions. All the figures, which have been backed up by recent reports, suggest that the supply situation will be extremely tight over the next few years if you layer on what we all hope will be delivered as a result of the devolution of corporation tax. Indeed, I have seen some figures that suggest FDI demand of 820,000 square feet over the next three years, which compares to a current annual demand of about 225,000 square feet. Potentially, FDI could double demand for grade-A office space over the next few years.

You are right that I have a Chamber perspective and a professional perspective, so, if you will allow me, I will comment in both of those contexts. In the short term, there is an issue about the availability of space and the level of investment that is going into grade-A office blocks at the moment. We start with that position. Ultimately, speaking from a financing perspective, I do not believe that there is a fundamental lack of capital for investment. I regularly, day in and day out, speak to businesses that have the capacity and the capital behind them to build grade-A office blocks, whether inside or outside Belfast.

They are not doing that because the economic returns are not there at the moment. At £12 to £14 per square foot of rental, as it is at the moment, the economic returns simply are not as attractive as other opportunities that are in front of people, so investment is not going into grade-A office blocks. The harbour is a unique situation in that because, to be honest, most of our larger companies and big construction businesses that might have the capacity to make those decisions can get better returns by investing their capital elsewhere. I suggest that we need to see an increase in rentals over the next few years to attract capital into the creation of grade-A office space.

The Chairperson (Mr McGlone): That is what I was going to ask. What is the tipping point? What is the key? If you have underprovision and high demand, that is inevitably going to drive prices way up —

Mr Kingston: It will.

The Chairperson (Mr McGlone): — but you are still going to be left with underprovision.

Mr Kingston: I think that the point that you are raising, Chair, will address the issue over the longer term because costs of rent will rise. For me, a figure of about £18 creates the right economic return to attract investment. We are still a way off that. However, even if it does move to £18, we are still extremely competitive compared to the rest of the United Kingdom and internationally. I do not think that it will be a fundamental issue for Invest NI in being able to attract FDI, but it does need to be higher than it is at the moment to attract investment over the longer term. There is perhaps an argument for some sort of incentive or initiative to try to drive the short-term position, but, over the longer term, I do not believe that there is a fundamental market failure.

The Chairperson (Mr McGlone): That is what I was going to come to. With that incentive, you are obviously talking about public intervention, whatever that might be. Should it be by way of grant or inducements or by bringing in secure tenants from the public sector to be the first tenants in any new proposed development? What is the thinking there?

Mr Kingston: I would be flexible on that. The key issue for me is creating the right economic return to attract investment. You can do that in a number of ways. You can do it by way of a rent subsidy, or a capital subsidy or, perhaps, a public sector intervention in creating a core tenant to allow the rest of a development to become a reality. There is a range of options there. What I am saying is that there is an argument for that in the short term, but, over the longer term of a three- to five-year period, I would hope that, if rentals increase, we will see capital flow into that opportunity and address some of the challenges that we have.

Ms Fearon: Thanks very much for the discussion so far. First, could you give us your thoughts on our lack of accurate economic data? The reality is that we do not have a comprehensive picture of our local economy. We believe that if we had more localised data that is specific to the North, we would be able to design more specific economic strategies that would tackle some of the issues that we are facing.

Ms O’Reilly: It is probably fair to say that our data is not too bad. It is difficult to get an angle on economic output on a very regular basis, which is maybe what you are talking about, but there are good barometers and stats on unemployment, business start-ups etc. The Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency (NISRA) is conscious of this and is trying to strengthen the data all the time. On exports, NISRA has come up with a new indicator on broad economy exports, which is useful. I was thinking about the support given to manufacturing. There is a growing tradable services base in Northern Ireland. That is coming through again clearly from the quarterly economic survey. Going forward, how to try to provide as much support to the tradable services sector as the manufacturing sector gets might be looked at. Maybe I, as an economist, do not see a problem with the statistics because I work with what I have got, but I think that our statistics are quite good except on that angle on economic output. The indicators are largely there, I think.

Ms Fearon: Ann, you mentioned broadband earlier. Is that something that you have surveyed businesses on? There are huge black spots in Newry and Armagh. You have construction companies taking a full day to download a tender. It is a nightmare for local businesses. Is that something that you have surveyed your businesses on?

Ms McGregor: We have not surveyed, but we participate in a panel that is trying to look at increasing usage. We are doing that with BT and other mobile providers. There is good basic broadband coverage across Northern Ireland, but there are black spots around. Ofcom has a really good website, where you can see the size of broadband coverage and take-up in an area. It shows that Northern Ireland has something like 94·6% take-up but that, when you get down to 3G and 4G, that all changes. We get feedback, but we can also see from the Ofcom data, which is very public, that there are issues. The rural broadband fund should help, but there is still more to do.

Ms Fearon: The mobile infrastructure project being rolled out by Arqiva will obviously help connectivity as well.

Finally, on skills, on page 6 of your briefing paper, you state that our skills supply is not well aligned to the local labour market. I have heard that from local IT start-ups in the last few weeks. You recommend a reskilling programme. Can you give more detail of what that would look like and how we would focus on the skills that we require?

Ms McGregor: There is some good work already being done in that regard. Our FE colleges across the country are connecting well with businesses. The new apprenticeship programme that is coming out, with the high-level apprenticeship schemes, will help in that, and we will be supportive in that. However, the cuts to the higher education and further education sectors are not coming at the right time. If any prioritisation had to be given, I would say that you should look at our universities and colleges. We are going to lose something like 30,000 places in FE colleges come September. Universities, although the figure varies, will lose about 1,100 places. We really need to think about that, once we get the date and rate for corporation tax devolution, and if there is any extra money, put it there.

Ms Fearon: Is the smoother transition from education to the workplace focused just on third level, or would there be a role for DE?

Ms McGregor: We have some serious data. Our destination-of-school-leavers data shows that 43% go into HE, 34% go into FE, 6% go into employment and 11% go into training, We are hearing from employers that some young people, despite quite a bit of training and development, are still not ready for the world of work and still do not have good general communication skills. They sometimes make wrong career choices. We would be supportive of good work experience, good university placements and better interaction between business and schools. We would love to see business governors in every school across Northern Ireland, higher quality work experience and all the stuff that you know. It is still a challenge.

Mr Frew: Gordon Dunne raised the issue of energy costs earlier. Your report shows that three fifths of businesses, 62%, state that energy costs are burdensome. We all know the problems. It is a very complicated system with, might I add, a lot of players all playing their part to make it even more complicated. We all need a solution. We all know the problem. We can see it. We can feel it. Businesses feel it. I suspect that, if you were to ask large employers in industry, over 90%, if not even more, would say that they feel that pain. What solutions does the Chamber of Commerce have? You cited one example, but, really and truly, you are talking there about a small relief for a small number of businesses. In my eyes, what we need is a complete sea change in the way that we do energy. The integrated single electricity market (I-SEM) will not cut it. In fact, it may make it even more complicated and less transparent. Have we solutions?

Mr McCully: In my earlier response, I said that Northern Ireland struggles with scale and that interconnection is relatively weak at the minute. Unfortunately, we cannot capture scale from outside that market. That is going to be very important to reinstating stronger interconnection. Scale will bring with it benefits. It will allow energy traders and energy suppliers to purchase in other markets. The I-SEM, in its intent, should allow for the free flow of energy across state boundaries. I think that intent is absolutely right, but the devil is in the detail. We have to see that detail, and it is evolving very slowly.

Economic development helps greatly with spreading the fixed costs. We have seen manufacturing, particularly in large industry, struggle over the last decade, and demand has reduced in the higher levels of the electricity network. If we get the right type of economic development, that demand will increase, and that will allow for those fixed costs to be spread over a larger number of units. That will bring the unit price down as well. It is all about scale. I agree: we all need to focus on I-SEM until it delivers what it intends to. However, scale is desperately important in the overall equation.

Mr Frew: I take your point about isolation and scale, but if you take the argument or solution that you have just given, about spreading it over the costs, to its logical conclusion, where the costs are so high that the businesses and large employers are coming off the grid, which then makes it even harder, but which businesses find to be vital, you would have to support them individually. What is the Chamber of Commerce's view regarding the move by NIE on stopping the grid connections?

Mr McCully: For new investment into Northern Ireland, I think that it is important that we have a very clear strategy and plan to ensure that the network develops to allow timely connection of new demand and new loads on to the system. We all need to work. Clearly, NIE is important; I cannot speak on its behalf, but it will be very important. Other stakeholders provide vital input to that. Enterprise zones are useful. They can help identify opportunities where they can develop the more intensive business clusters. Energy-intensive business clusters can be targeted in certain geographical areas, and that could be a very useful tool in the overall economic development.

Mr Frew: It is going to be a problem that stays with us for a very long time, and solutions will have to be found by all of the players in energy.

I move now to the remarks in your report about better regulation. I know that a piece of work has been done by DETI to try to improve regulation. You mentioned the business champion defending the position of the business world. Are there any signs or evidence that better regulation is happening, or is it getting worse?

Mr McCully: I will swap hats again from a professional perspective. We see a lot of regulation coming down from Europe. I think there is an opportunity to apply common sense, because its initial intent is to develop where there is a cost-benefit test, but, sometimes, once it reaches a local level, it becomes distorted. It is all about ensuring compliance. I do not think we can avoid compliance; it is about complying with legislation in the most cost-effective way to maximise the benefit that can be achieved and remove all bureaucracy. I think that there have been good steps. There were good outputs from that report that are worthy of taking forward, and every piece of legislation that gets transposed into Northern Ireland needs to be carefully looked at to ensure that we are getting the best possible and most cost-effective compliance solution.

Mr Frew: I note your comments about the European Union. Who does the Chamber of Commerce blame for regulation? It will not all be pointed in the one direction, I am sure. Where is the bulk of the problem coming from? Is it Europe, or is it Northern Ireland's interpretation of the regulation?

Mr McCully: It is probably a bit of both. Work needs to be done. I mentioned that we probably need to go more to the source in Brussels to put forward our case so that we can catch legislation before it is fully developed. I think that more can be done at a local level as we, as regulators, start to interpret some of the regulations locally.

Mr Frew: With business at the minute, export is critical to Northern Ireland, and the way the currencies are — that is, the euro and the dollar in comparison to the pound — is causing big problems for exporters. You recommend increased support for exporters. In what guise will that come? What will that look like, and what sort of support is available?

Ms O’Reilly: There is good support available for exporters at the moment, particularly existing exporters. The export action plan that is being developed at the moment is trying to look at what is there and what could be done. In fairness, that is in development. When looking at support in the Republic of Ireland, it struck me that it has very specific support for potential exporters, and that seems to work very well for seeing who has the capability. Not every business will have the capability to export. There is finance available for exporters here, and the Chamber of Commerce has been very actively involved in that. There is good support. There might be a couple of gaps in it, and hopefully the export action plan will identify them. As with most things, it is really about businesses understanding what is out there. Ann mentioned the broader support earlier, but, typically, when you try to understand what programmes are available, it is still very difficult for businesses to navigate that, particularly younger businesses and the ones that do not know what kind of help they could get. That is critical.

Mr Kingston: Particularly for so many start-up business that are time-poor in the early stage when they have so many competing demands.

Mr McKinney: I apologise for not being in at the start. Thank you all for your presentation. You mention that tax rates are problematic. Maybe you could elaborate on that, especially given that the tax regime comes from Westminster and most of it is not devolved. You hit on the issue of rates earlier, but there is clearly a gap in knowledge about how most recent rises have impacted.

Mr Kingston: I guess that we are coming from two perspectives, Fearghal. The first is the competitiveness and challenges that business in Northern Ireland has, and we have talked about the scale of that and some of the particular Northern Ireland issues. We believe that the likes of business rates have a role to play in acknowledging that competitiveness challenge and helping to create a level playing field for business so that Northern Ireland can move forward at the pace that we all hope it will. The second point is about helping to drive investment and growth with any resources that are not used for paying tax being diverted back into business and investment, and corporation tax is the example of that. So many indigenous businesses are saying to us that that reduction in tax will create an opportunity for them to invest that money back into growth and jobs.

Mr McKinney: When you refer to the tax rates being problematic, you are talking about corporation tax.

Mr Kingston: Yes, largely.

Mr McKinney: You talk about innovative techniques to fund investment and cite the Scottish Futures Trust, etc. How would that work here?

Mr Kingston: The example of the Scottish Futures Trust is worth a look; that is why we mention it in our document. In particular, they have developed something called a non-profit distributing model, which is a variant of, or the next stage on from, the old private finance initiative (PFI) or private-public partnership (PPP) models. They were very popular at one time, but ran into difficulties associated with the level of private sector returns built into some projects. Scottish Futures Trust is non-profit distributing: there is essentially a capped return for the private sector from some of the projects. In many ways, it looks similar to some of the old PFI/PPP projects, which allow private sector investment to substitute for Government capital; but returns are capped, preventing some of the excesses that, perhaps, discredited many PPP/PFI projects.

Mr McKinney: What implications are there for the block grant in levering private funding for what is Government business infrastructure?

Mr Kingston: At its simplest, attracting and incentivising the private sector to substitute anywhere for Government capital grants has to be a good thing.

Mr McKinney: Would London subtract it from the block grant? Have we worked that out yet?

Mr Kingston: I am not sure.

Ms McGregor: I am not sure. BT funded the rural broadband fund by £29 million, DETI by £18 million, and DARD by £1·5 million. There probably needs to be more reinvested.

Mr McKinney: Maybe in that Toome bypass you are talking about.

Mr Kingston: I cannot see why there would be an argument for deducting it on the basis that Government has sourced it from the private sector. Obviously, there is an impact on ongoing revenue for Government, but it would effectively be fresh money that is not taken out of the capital budget.

Mr McKinney: You also talk about creating the right financial environment and improving awareness of and access to alternative sources of finance, but how does Government do that in practical terms? Should business not take more responsibility?

Mr Kingston: Yes, business definitely has a role to play. That statement speaks to a number of points, Fearghal. It is about educating financial executives in banks, for example, to ensure that they are aware of the entire range of options. Very often they are the first port of call for a young business that may not yet be appropriate for debt finance. There is an opportunity to ensure that business managers understand that debt may not be the appropriate product for them at this stage in their company life cycle. They need to know that Invest NI has a range of products on an access to finance continuum, some of which might be the right product.

Mr McKinney: Is that what you are talking about in your education forum?

Mr Kingston: It is one of the pieces. The wider piece is making sure that we communicate, and the Chamber of Commerce has a very definite role to ensure that we communicate what opportunities and schemes are available. We touch on R&D tax credits and so on. That is a good example where the Chamber of Commerce and business can work together to make the most of that opportunity.

Ms McGregor: We are doing a couple of things. Invest NI has really good information on all their sources of funds, such as the WhiteRock fund, and we promote that around businesses across Northern Ireland. Also, in my access to finance role, I have been meeting with the Institute of Chartered Accountants to see how it can get all that information across. The big four accountancy firms know a lot about the schemes, but many businesses are advised by small rural accountants, who they may have gone to school with or who have been based in the town for many years, and some of them, with the greatest respect, although talented individuals, are not totally up-to-date with all the schemes out there. We are therefore working on doing some regional workshops to address that. Anything that encourages people to learn more, so that they become better advisors, is important.

Mr McKinney: Who takes the lead in an education forum?

Mr Kingston: I do not know if there is a single lead; I think there are initiatives across all the interested parties, Fearghal, whether the business organisations, such as ourselves, or banks. All of us have a role to play.

Mr McKinney: If we just zoom out for a second and touch on Patsy's point about strategically driven planning. I assume, Patsy, that you are alerting us all and reminding us that that is absent in very many cases. In the absence of that, what does the continued pressure on the block grant and the weakness of our private sector say about our sustainability going forward?

Mr Kingston: The issues of scale and the specific challenges that we face, being an island off an island and all of that, are very well rehearsed, but they are also very real. They are tangible challenges. The challenge for all of us is accepting and acknowledging those. How do we create the right environment to drive growth for the future? That is why we particularly welcome this discussion and this piece of work that the Committee for Enterprise, Trade and Investment is doing; we think that is what we should be talking about. Let us get corporation tax on the books, let us clarify the rate and the date point and create the environment for business to get on with what you want them to get on with and what we want them to get on with, which is creating opportunities for our people on the ground.

Mr Ó Muilleoir: Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. It is nice to see you all again. My apologies for being late. I wanted to pick up on the issue of partnership. Our friends from the Concentrix global board, SYNNEX, were in Belfast last week, and one of the members of the global board said, "Who is telling the story about your city and the special interest in Belfast? Who is putting the narrative out there about the changes in the city?". When talking of partnership, is there a role for an organisation, whether it is a council, a partnership, an alliance, or a competitive partnership, as they have in the city of Boston, that will help government and those of us in government tell the story about Belfast. I do not want to ask you at this stage to spend money on that, but when you look at the good news about Concentrix taking over Maysfield and spending £10 million turning it into office headquarters, and Allstate buying a site just beside that, you really can see an arc of development on the river, and then Deloitte is at the gasworks. Sometimes, I think that we need more people to tell that story. So, the question for the Chamber of Commerce is, between now and the next couple of years, is there a way that we can do more in partnership to tell that bright story?

Ms McGregor: There definitely is. Belfast City Council has done good work on that area already. I cannot remember the name of the document, but we have different departments that do inward investment or skills, but there is a whole city narrative, as you said. I cannot remember the name, but we have all been consulted on how we describe Belfast and how we promote Belfast. We are trying to agree key messages that we can all do together, so if we as a Chamber are out anywhere, we can talk about the key facts and figures around Belfast. So, there is work progressing there, and I think that Belfast City Council has a very strong role to play in that.

Mr Ó Muilleoir: Are you leaving the work to Belfast City Council?

Ms McGregor: Oh gosh, no.

Mr Ó Muilleoir: Might you be able to do it better than Belfast City Council?

Ms McGregor: I have attended about three different sessions with other business organisations and players, such as airports or whatever, to agree on the key messages that we are putting out about Northern Ireland. It is still at the early stages of development, but it is something that we completely support. As a Chamber, we spend our life promoting our 1,200 members. We have our magazine 'Ambition', and we have e-zines. It is all about positive messaging. As you know, Concentrix was here last week. I think that I met you down there afterwards. Our next feature is all about the investment, of Gem coming into Concentrix and being part of SYNNEX etc. Those are great stories that we are trying to encourage across Northern Ireland. We had a whole campaign called Growing Something Brilliant for three years, which was trying to inspire businesses to grow and to share the great stories, and we are happy to do that with Belfast City Council and anyone else out there.

Mr Kinahan: Apologies for being late; I am sorry not to have heard your presentation. I have lots of questions. You have probably answered most of them, but one follows on from Fearghal's question. I was always under the impression that we could not gear money on the back of our block grant, but the new super-councils are in a position to do so.

One question is this: do you see councils, therefore, being more key in learning how to use finance? At the other end, should we have our own investment bank or fund here that allows a bit more freedom?

Mr Kingston: Yes. You have raised a number of interesting points there, Danny. We certainly believe that the changes to the councils are a real opportunity for changing the economic development dynamic in local areas. Indeed, as the Northern Ireland Chamber, we have been espousing the concept of the local chambers across Northern Ireland as perhaps having a key role to play in that. The local chambers across Northern Ireland are the ideal representatives to contribute to the development of community plans. They have the local insight and the understanding of the needs of business at a local level.

We are beginning to see the opportunities for the councils as they work through the new powers that they have in front of them. I do not think that they are, by any means, fully developed, but that is simply an inevitable consequence of the timing of where we are on that. There are real opportunities; we have not yet seen the new powers being flexed, but there is potential there for real growth.

Ms McGregor: In terms of business support, I note that all the councils have come out together to do a review of the current start-up programme. I would welcome them continuing the start-up programme across Northern Ireland. I hope that they would consider a Northern Ireland-wide business support programme. I also think that the councils should recognise the role that Invest NI plays in inward investment and that they cooperate and do not start going off in different areas in that regard.

Mr Kingston: We also mention planning in our proposal. Obviously, that cuts across the whole piece of economic development. In our paper, we suggest that thought should be given to putting some sort of KPIs around planning decisions across the board to set standards of what we expect. England works to eight weeks for simple planning and 13 weeks for complex planning: why should we not set similar targets for Northern Ireland? We propose 10 weeks in our paper, but that is a proposal. Equally, as we encourage the economic development powers that the councils have in front of them, we should also challenge them on measures and actual performance.

The Chairperson (Mr McGlone): That concludes our session. Thanks very much indeed to all of you for giving your time; it is great to see you all again, and we will keep the dialogue going. As you are probably aware, we will have a stakeholder event this afternoon, and our aim is to draft up our conclusions and share them with the relevant Departments to act as a form of that integrated approach that we were talking about. Hopefully, we will get over the line on the decision on corporation tax as well.

Mr Kingston: Let us hope so. Thank you for this opportunity to meet the Committee; we wish you well in that work.

The Chairperson (Mr McGlone): OK. Thank you.