Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Nesbitt): With us we have Dr Mark Browne, director of finance, strategic planning and social change in the Department; Grainne Killen, acting director, good relations and financial governance division; and Ken Fraser, head of the racial equality unit. Mark, would you care to kick off?

Dr Mark Browne (Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister): Thank you very much, Chair. I am very pleased to have the opportunity to give the Committee an update on the work that we are doing to make the necessary arrangements to welcome Syrian refugees who may arrive here in the coming months. As background, we provided the Committee with copies of two pieces of recent correspondence, the first was between the First Minister and deputy First Minister and the Home Secretary, Theresa May; and the second was between the First Minister and deputy First Minister and other Executive Ministers. If you are content, I will outline details of the relevant UK Government's scheme for bringing refugees here and then provide an update on the work that is under way to ensure that provisions are in place to allow us to meet the complex needs of any refugees who may come here. I will then be happy to take any questions you might have.

At the outset, I stress that this is still a work in progress. Some operational details of how the scheme will work are being finalised, so there may be some areas where the amount of detail we can provide at this stage will be limited.

Committee members will be aware that immigration is not a transferred matter and, therefore, the responsibility for policy issues remains with Westminster. At present, the only formal programme under which we might receive refugees is the UK Government's vulnerable persons relocation (VPR) scheme. That scheme will resettle displaced refugees who are currently living in camps in countries neighbouring Syria, principally Turkey, Jordan and Lebanon. It does not extend to asylum seekers in Europe or in countries such as Libya. The VPR scheme was initially established in January 2014 to offer resettlement to some of the most vulnerable Syrian refugees. The intention is to identify those left most vulnerable by the conflict and resettle them where they can get the quality of support that they need. On 7 September this year, the Prime Minister outlined plans to extend the scheme to resettle 20,000 Syrians in need of protection during the current Parliament.

The First Minister and deputy First Minister have signalled to the UK Government, in the correspondence that I mentioned to Theresa May, their willingness to welcome some of the most vulnerable refugees here under the VPR scheme. Ministers have committed to welcoming between 50 and 100 refugees by December, with the expectation that further groups will arrive on a phased basis thereafter. By going about things in that way, we hope to be able to identify key learning and resolve any unforeseen issues before additional refugees are welcomed. I will provide some information on the work that is under way locally to welcome refugees and give you further details on the VPR scheme.

The VPR scheme is based on need. It prioritises those who cannot be supported effectively in their region of origin: women and children at risk, people in severe need of medical care, and survivors of torture and violence, among others. Individuals who are accepted under the scheme will be granted five years humanitarian protection status and will have access to employment and public funds and rights to family reunion comparable to refugees. At the end of the five years, if individuals are not able to return to Syria, they may be eligible to apply for resettlement in the UK. The rights and benefits eligible under the humanitarian protection include access to the range of welfare benefits that are given to people on low income, as well as housing support. Prior to arrival, refugees will be assessed by the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) in the camps. We have no involvement in that assessment. Information will be provided on each individual, including any medical needs, in advance of their arrival. One of the major challenges that the UNHCR is facing is the pressure to significantly ramp up its work in terms of assessing and identifying refugees. That is to meet the demand of the increased VPR commitment, both in the UK and that of other interested countries.

Therefore, we should be aware that, although there is a willingness to bring refugees here as soon as possible, that may be limited, to an extent, by the UNHCR's capacity to identify the refugees and by the pledges to take refugees that the Home Office will have received from local authorities in England, Scotland and Wales.

We have provided members with a briefing document, which was produced by the Home Office in relation to the vulnerable persons relocation scheme, and that document contains some detail on the operation of the scheme. Committee members should note, however, that parts of the document will not apply here, given the different local arrangements. The main difference, and one that we need to be alive to, is the difference in the discharge of Government responsibilities, in that the Executive will take the lead here whereas, in other parts of England, Scotland and Wales, local authorities will have the lead responsibility, given their broader range of functions.

In relation to funding, the UK Government will provide additional funding to the Executive to meet the needs of any refugees received under the VPR scheme in their first year. The detail of that funding and the resourcing for future years is under consideration and is the subject of ongoing discussion with the Home Office. The specific details will need to be clarified with the Home Office, and we are working with colleagues in DFP on those financial issues.

On the progress made to date, two groups have been established to lead the necessary work involved in welcoming refugees here: a strategic group, which I chair; and an operational group. The refugees that we accept will have rights similar to those who are ordinarily resident here: the right to seek employment, the right to access benefits, education, healthcare etc. In taking responsibility for those vulnerable groups of people, we, therefore, have a responsibility to ensure that they have proper access to health, social care, housing, education, community support and employment opportunities.

The strategic planning group led by OFMDFM coordinates the response of Departments and agencies and considers the strategic issues and local implications. The membership includes representatives from DSD, DHSSPS, DE, DEL, DFP, the PSNI, the Housing Executive and the Education Authority. A Home Office representative has also attended meetings of the group. We have met three times to date, and we plan to convene another meeting towards the end of this month.

There is also an operational group chaired by DSD. The group has been established to consider and address the practical steps that are needed to meet the immediate and longer terms needs of those who may arrive. It is responsible for liaison with councils and with the community and voluntary sector. The membership of that operational group includes representatives from DEL, the Housing Executive, OFMDFM, DHSSPS, the Department of Education, the PSNI, the Health and Social Care Board, the Education Authority, local government and a number of NGOs, and it has been meeting weekly.

We have had ongoing discussions with NGOs already active in supporting refugees and asylum seekers about their capacity to help with this work. NGOs with relevant expertise have attended a meeting of the strategic group, and they are active members of the operational group. Both groups will continue to liaise and engage with the voluntary and community sector.

Although the Executive have taken the lead, there will also, of course, be an important role for local councils in providing support and creating and promoting a welcoming environment. Councils are linked closely into the arrangements through their membership of the operational group.

In recent months, there has been a substantial display of goodwill by members of the public in relation to the refugee crisis. People are keen to help, and we wish to build on that. Officials are considering how best to harness the expressions of goodwill that have been received.

We will also work to ensure that there is appropriate communication and engagement with local communities in advance of any areas receiving refugees.

We recognise generally that there is very substantial interest in the issue. Many have asked very specific questions about the timing of arrivals and potential locations. Some of those operational details have yet to be finalised, so the answers are not yet available. It is also important that we strike an appropriate balance between meeting the legitimate desire for information and discharging our primary responsibility for the safety and well-being of refugees. In trying to discharge that responsibility, we will seek to ensure that we provide information but not information that draws undue attention to, or undermines the privacy and recovery of, this vulnerable group of people.

We are happy to update the Committee on the issue, and we are happy to take any questions that members might have.

The Chairperson (Mr Nesbitt): OK, Mark. Thank you very much. That was very informative and useful.

First, on the numbers, we know that the Prime Minister has said that there will be 20,000 over the lifetime of this parliamentary mandate. Do we have solid, endgame numbers for Northern Ireland? Will it be only the 50 to 100 referenced in the letter from the Acting First Minister and dFM?

Dr Browne: The First Minister and the dFM have indicated that they are willing to take between 50 and 100 by December, with a commitment to bringing in further groups on a phased basis. No top limit or top number has been set. The intention is to bring in that first group, test our arrangements and take in further groups on a phased basis.

The Chairperson (Mr Nesbitt): The dFM, as I am sure you are aware, has said in public that it is his view that we should take about 2,000. Is that just a personal opinion from the deputy First Minister?

Dr Browne: The Executive, as I say, have not set a top figure. A range of views have been expressed by people about what might be possible. At one point, though, the dFM did reference a figure of 2,000.

In the group, we looked at a range of potential scenarios to test the implications of bringing in 500, 1,000, or 1,500 refugees, and we assessed the implications of those numbers. However, there has been no commitment to a firm top number. It is: let us bring in the group and test the arrangements and see.

The Chairperson (Mr Nesbitt): I would like to pursue that, but just to close this off: is this an area where the FM and the dFM should be acting jointly?

Dr Browne: The FM and dFM are acting jointly, in that they have agreed that we will take a first group of up to 100 by Christmas.

The Chairperson (Mr Nesbitt): So, if 2,000 is to be the global total, that would have to be the dFM and FM acting jointly and taking it to the Executive?

Dr Browne: This will be a joint process, the whole way through.

The Chairperson (Mr Nesbitt): In terms of the tests that you are doing, a figure that is being bandied around the UK is one refugee per thousand of population, which actually would be close to the 2,000 that the dFM spoke of. It is 1,800. Have you looked at models such as one-in-X-of-population, and tried to find out what sort of additional stress that would put on statutory services?

Dr Browne: We have not approached it in quite that way, Chair. We have been looking at our involvement in the scheme as set out, and that is for 20,000 across the UK. It is our role, as part of that, that we have been looking at.

In considering the numbers and timing, we have been looking very carefully at what I stressed at the outset was the key concern. We have to make sure that the well-being of the refugees is paramount. This is not a numbers game. It is about making sure that, when we bring in refugees, we have the right services and support in place and, in line with UNHCR guidance, those refugees that are placed around Northern Ireland are placed in communities where they will receive a welcome and where there is the appropriate support for them. That is a requirement of the UNHCR.

In making our assessment, we must be aware that we do not have a history of taking in and relocating refugees, in the way that other parts of the UK have. So, our initial actions in this have been to try to learn from experience elsewhere, identify the sort of services that we will need and issues we will face, and start this on a phased basis. We think it is common sense to bring in a group, make sure that we meet their needs, test our systems and then move beyond that to bring in further groups.

The Chairperson (Mr Nesbitt): Would it be fair to say that what limited experience we have has been successful, in terms of the boat people in Craigavon?

Dr Browne: I think there are very mixed views of previous events. I am aware of that particular event, although I do not have a detailed history of it. I think that there were a number of concerns about the way in which that was managed and, in particular, about the long-term impacts. There is learning not just from the example of the boat people but elsewhere. When we spoke with Home Office officials, they referred to experience with refugees from Kosovo, where the key issue was not just bringing the refugees here, but the extent to which they were effectively integrated into society and felt comfortable thereafter. That is where a lot of the problems have arisen. They were making the point that, in some of these earlier programmes, the term "lift and shift" was used: bring them out from the area where they are under threat to somewhere safe. However, it is what you do after that that is the critical thing.

The Chairperson (Mr Nesbitt): In terms of that longer term strategy, you said that five years' protection would be offered. That prompts the question: what is the endgame? Is the aim of the scheme to integrate these vulnerable people into Northern Ireland society, or prepare them for a return to their country of origin when appropriate?

Dr Browne: I hesitate to speak on behalf of the Prime Minister, but the UK policy is to invest in the camps close to Syria and keep people close to where the conflict is, in the hope that, if things improve, they will then be able to go back to that country. The VPR scheme has arisen from a desire to maintain that policy but, where there are those who are particularly vulnerable, try to provide some support for them in another safe place. That is why the policy is to take refugees from the camps around Syria, as opposed to taking them from the migration into Europe. That is very much seen as part of the overall policy. The decision on that will be taken at the end of the five years. If those who come here feel that they have a life here that they want to continue, they have the option to apply to have that extended. The experience to date of those who have applied from Syria for refugee status is that there has been a very high success rate.

The Chairperson (Mr Nesbitt): I may have misheard you in your opening remarks, Mark, so apologies; but, for clarification purposes, did you talk about women and children at risk rather than men, women and children at risk?

Dr Browne: There is a range of criteria, but the priority groups within that range include women and children at risk.

Mr Lyons: There are just a couple of issues. Thanks very much for that presentation. I think that gives us a lot more clarity about what is happening, but there are just a few issues that arise from that. First, you mentioned the role that local government would have to play. What discussions have taken place with members of local government or chief executives of councils in Northern Ireland? Have there been any directives, advice or briefings sent to them? If that has not happened, when do you expect it to happen? As you said, they would obviously play a role in it.

Dr Browne: There has been considerable interest in local councils, and a number of them have adopted motions. Belfast City Council, for example, has passed a number of motions on it. We have received correspondence from Newry, Mourne and Down District Council as well as Belfast about their desire to help refugees. There has been engagement in a number of ways. In the first place, they have a representative on the operational group. That came about as a result of a number of councils individually seeking ways to help. There was engagement between the operational group and the Society of Local Authority Chief Executives (SOLACE). A briefing was given on 20 September by Ian Snowdon, who is the DSD lead on the operational group. He gave them a briefing and suggested that the best way for them to plug into it was to have a representative on the group who would act on behalf of all the local councils. That representative now sits on the group. In addition, Ian wrote to all of the district councils on 1 October setting out the background to the scheme and asked them to engage through the operational group. That is the way in which we are seeking to engage with the councils.

Mr Lyons: OK; that is helpful. Thank you. You also mentioned that, under the UNHCR guidelines or rules, you would need to ensure that those refugees who are coming are going to be placed somewhere where they will be made to feel welcome. How do you decide that? What work will be carried out to ensure that those refugees go to a place where they will feel safe and where the local community is accepting of them?

Dr Browne: There is work being done on that in the operational group. That is drawing on experience elsewhere. We have to look at a combination of factors in determining where refugees should be located, which includes aspects relating to the availability of services. For example, is there housing available? We are looking at both social housing and private rented housing. Where is there available stock? We are looking at issues around the availability of education places and the experience of the schools in particular areas in dealing with migrants.

In relation to communities, we are looking at what the capacity is in relation to employment opportunities, looking at the strength of the community infrastructure and looking at levels of crime, including hate crime. We are trying to take the combination of those factors and map them across all council areas to get a sense of the best match. After that, the process will be one of engaging with the communities, talking to community groups and resident associations about the prospect of bringing in refugees, explaining what the arrangements would be and ensuring that there was support.

A local council has an important role to play in creating the welcoming environment and in working with the local community through, for example, the district council good relations officers, to try to promote support for diversity and an appreciation and understanding of the issues that are being faced by refugees. There is a broader role for councils and, indeed, a broader role for politicians and the wider community in sending out that welcoming message.

Mr Lyons: You mention that list, and it is helpful to have that, but, for example, up until Christmas, we are talking about relatively small numbers — fewer than 100. Based on what you have just said about finding areas where there are education places, capacity in the housing and all of the rest, do you foresee a situation where you would have quite a high percentage of them going to one place?

Do you see them all being spread out, with a family here and a family there, or do you see them being kept together in one place where there is more capacity?

Dr Browne: A key consideration is that refugees feel safe and secure. Where possible, we will want them to be located in self-sustaining communities. Dispersal of individual families over a wide area would not achieve that. We would be looking at self-contained groups, where there would be enough of a sense of community among families that are placed to provide support, while balancing that with making sure that numbers are not so large that the host community feels that that is putting an undue pressure on services and creating problems. It is about getting the balance right.

On advice we got from elsewhere, groups of 10 to 15 families going into an area would be the broad rule of thumb. However, it will depend on the particular circumstances.

Mr Lyons: You could see quite a number of the refugees coming before Christmas. A large number of them could be kept in one area.

Dr Browne: They could be located in one area or two areas. It depends on how many family units there would be. We do not yet know what size the family units will be, or the circumstances, but, yes, they could be in one or two locations. It would not be sensible to split the group up and spread them widely.

Mr Lyons: That is helpful. Thanks very much. Just one final question, and this is probably above your pay grade or beyond anything that anyone in Northern Ireland can do, but you listed a number of priority groups. Has consideration been given to those who feel that they are being persecuted on grounds of faith? I know that 700,000 Christians have had to leave Syria since 2011. Is that one of the categories of people that the Home Office has outlined would be considered vulnerable or needing special attention?

Dr Browne: Those identified in the camps are being taken under seven criteria. It may be helpful to give you those criteria. I mentioned three in terms of a priority group but there is a broader set of seven criteria as follows: women and girls at risk; survivors of violence and/or torture; refugees with legal and/or physical protection needs; refugees with medical needs or disabilities; children and adolescents at risk; persons at risk due to their sexual orientation or gender identity; and refugees with family links in resettlement countries.

There is nothing about religious persecution specifically but some of those groups could be at risk because of their religion. It does not specify religious persecution, but the risk could arise from that source. The key point is that this is not looking at any specific religion. It is looking at refugees and the fact that they are in need and at risk.

Mr Lyons: Yes, but you would accept hat some of those people would be at risk because of their faith.

Dr Browne: Risk could arise from a range of sources, including that reason.

Mr Lyttle: Thanks for your presentation. You note, correctly, that there is substantial public interest in Northern Ireland in this issue. We have shown ourselves to be an extremely compassionate community. You noted the groundswell of proactive response.

There is quite a bit of detail in the correspondence we have been provided with, and in your presentation, so why has it taken until 21 October for this level of detail and information to be made publicly available to the people of Northern Ireland?

Dr Browne: The VPR scheme was established in January 2014. The details of that scheme have been available on the Home Office website for some time. The issue was about our involvement in the scheme and the commitment in Northern Ireland for us to get engaged in the scheme, which was a more recent decision. In that, we have been engaging with the Home Office.

The Home Office set up its group to take this forward fairly recently, as did Scotland and Wales. Getting the structures in place and looking at the scheme have all been fairly recent. It is not so much that the details of the scheme have not been there; they have been there all along. We have been looking at how that scheme would apply here, what the implications would be and what we would need to have in place. That is what we have been working at. Those details have been on the Home Office website since, I suspect, last year.

Mr Lyttle: The only level of detail we have is that we are hoping to take 100 people by December. What was so difficult about publicising that?

Dr Browne: Part of the decision that had to be taken was the consideration of whether to set higher numbers and what the capacity would be. We have no experience of taking in refugees under this kind of a scheme; we have no experience of what is required. We have experience of asylum seekers, but we do not have experience of refugees and relocating. This is a very specific scheme. It is only sensible that we plan properly before taking in groups of refugees. You should also bear in mind that this ramped-up scheme in which we are participating is relatively recent. The Home Office is still looking to identify the additional refugees that would come. We expect to get some indication of some of the referrals over the next weeks. So, this is timely. I suppose that it has been later than the way some migration has manifested itself in Europe, but this scheme has been relatively recent. The ramping up has been recent, and the developments in the various parts of the UK to deal with it and participate in it have been relatively recent.

Mr Lyttle: The First Minister and deputy First Minister's letter to the Home Office is dated 9 October. Was the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister liaising with the Home Office on the issue prior to 9 October?

Dr Browne: We have regular contact with the Home Office on all these sorts of immigration issues. Ken heads the racial equality unit, so these kinds of issues around immigration and how they impact at local level are things that we are dealing with on a day-to-day basis. A Home Office representative is over here a couple of days a week. We have regular and close contact with them. So, we are in regular contact on a range of these issues. We have been liaising with the Home Office to try to get greater understanding of how it is going to take the scheme forward. It had been working out some of the details of how it was going to ramp it up until very recently.

Mr Lyttle: You mentioned that the strategic and operational groups are meeting fairly regularly. Is it possible to get details on the composition of the strategic and operational groups?

Dr Browne: Yes, I have all of the details here. I can send them to you, or I can read them out.

Mr Lyttle: Send them to me; you do not need to read them out. You said that this is a new challenge for Northern Ireland. Obviously, the refugee integration strategy has been in preparation for some time. At what stage of readiness is the refugee integration strategy, not least given the urgent nature of this new element of refugee integration?

Dr Browne: There are two relevant aspects: the racial equality strategy and, within that, the refugee integration strategy. The racial equality strategy has been out for consultation. It has gone to the Executive and gone round Ministers for initial comment. We have received those comments back, and we are set to bring that to the Executive at one of their earliest meetings to get it approved. We expect it to be approved very quickly. One of the commitments in that is the refugee integration strategy that you referred to.

One thing that we have been asked is why we did not have a refugee integration strategy. The reason for that is relatively straightforward. It is because we have not been a dispersal area for refugees, in the same way as other parts of the UK have been. That is why they have those integration strategies, and ours has not yet been developed. However, we have started work on it. We have a very early initial draft. We are talking to some of the NGOs about what should go into that, and we hope to have a draft to Ministers before Christmas. That will set a broader framework within which we will operate going forward in the longer term. We will be putting the necessary arrangements in place to meet the needs of the refugees who are coming in, through the strategic group and the operation group that I have just described to you. A lot of the learning that we get from that will feed into the refugee integration strategy and formalise and set out the framework going forward.

Mr Lyttle: So, you hope to have a refugee integration strategy by the end of the year.

Dr Browne: I would hope to have it with Ministers, to have talked to NGOs and got their input. It is important that we get that input from those who are expert in the area. We will have that to Ministers, and then we will want to put it out to broader consultation. We aim to have that to Ministers by Christmas.

Mr Lyttle: Does it not need to be ready before we begin receiving refugees?

Dr Browne: I do not believe so, for the reasons I have just mentioned. It will provide the framework for our ongoing process of receiving further groups of refugees and how we integrate them into our community. We are already dealing with the issues through the strategic and operational group, and the learning from that will feed into the framework. We already have expertise: there are integration strategies elsewhere that we are already drawing on to ask what are the things to do with integration that we need to look at and deal with. We are already getting that learning. What we have to take time to do is to develop the framework itself.

Mr Lyttle: The refugee asylum forum, in addition to the urgent need for a refugee integration strategy, raised the key issue of the need for English language classes for refugees to assist with integration into the community. Will that be part of the action that will be taken by the operational group?

Dr Browne: There is provision for support for English language classes as part of the funding that the Home Office provides in the first year. So, that will be part of the initial support. There is a commitment in the racial equality strategy to look at better support for English language provision. Indeed, we have been in touch with DEL about this, and DEL has assured us that it will make sure that those who come in under this scheme receive the support they need and that it will address the wider policy issues as part of the refugee integration strategy when we develop that.

Mr Lyttle: What level of funding has the Home Office committed to at this stage?

Dr Browne: We gave some details in the letter to the Committee. It is a bit vague, however, and we are trying to get some further details. There is information about first-year education costs. The letter sets out different amounts for children of different ages, in the region of £2,250 to £4,500, from memory.

What we are trying to work out and get details of is the additional funding that would be available; for example, for health costs? Under the original version of the VPR scheme — and this goes back to your question about the extent to which we should have engaged in this earlier — there was only very limited financial support. With this ramping up, local authorities have lobbied for further funding in the first year to cover additional costs and for potential funding in additional years. That is currently under discussion by the Home Office and the Treasury.

We would hope that the level of funding in the first year is more beneficial than that mentioned in the document we sent to the Committee. We are hoping that it will be increased. I think that for years 2 to 5, while there will be some additional funding, it is likely to be relatively limited.

Mr Lyttle: OFMDFM does not have a position on what is a fair share of refugees at this stage.

Dr Browne: There is no final figure, and that would be a matter for the Executive.

Mr Lyttle: Has the absence of Executive Ministers and Executive meetings hampered our response to this?

Dr Browne: I do not believe so. The letter went to Theresa May a few weeks ago, during the period to which you are referring.

Mr Lyttle: Finally, Chair, do the First and deputy First Ministers intend to give a statement to the Assembly to provide this level of detail more publicly?

Dr Browne: They are looking at the whole aspect of communication. In the first instance, they have written to Executive colleagues, outlining the scheme, and they have asked for the views of those Executive colleagues. I think it would be on foot of those views that further information would be given to the wider Assembly.

The Chairperson (Mr Nesbitt): As it happens, the common platform group sponsored by the Community Relations Council is going round the political parties at the moment, fairly happy that the Executive is giving thought to refugees, but with the understandable message, "Don't forget about us. The black, minority and ethnic (BME) community is already here. We do not want to be forgotten, and we are beginning to feel forgotten because of the lack of a racial equality strategy." So, I think that it is timely. Just to be clear, the final proposed strategy is with Executive Ministers?

Dr Browne: The process is that any paper to the Executive has to go round Executive Ministers for comment before it formally comes to the Executive. Over the summer period it went out on paper to all Ministers. They have come back with comments. We have taken those on board, and we will put a final paper to the Executive, which should agree the strategy.

The Chairperson (Mr Nesbitt): I do not think that you can tell us when that will be, but there is no reason why it should not be —

Dr Browne: We would hope it would be early, but as you can appreciate, some business will have accumulated. There is going to be pressure on Executive time in the first meeting, but we will put it forward to get it agreed as soon as possible.

The Chairperson (Mr Nesbitt): Effectively, it is ready for consideration by the Executive when the Executive feel ready to look at it, given the workload that they have.

Dr Browne: Yes.

The Chairperson (Mr Nesbitt): Hopefully, that will be reassuring for that group. Grainne, Ken and Mark, thank you very much.