Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Weir): No Koulla?

Ms Mairéad McCafferty (Office of the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Children and Young People): No Koulla today. She gives her apologies. She has prior commitments.

The Chairperson (Mr Weir): No problem. Mairéad and Natalie, welcome. I will introduce you first. We have Mairéad McCafferty, the chief executive of the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Children and Young People (NICCY), and Natalie Whelehan — I hope that I have pronounced that correctly — who is the senior policy and research officer. We will have five evidence sessions today. The Committee wants to be fair to everyone, so we have agreed to try to restrict it to a maximum of 40 minutes for each evidence session so that everybody is given an equal opportunity. I hand over to you. If you want to make a short presentation, we will then open it up to questions.

Ms McCafferty: OK. I thank the Committee for inviting us to give evidence on the issue. As you may be aware, the principal aim of the Commissioner for Children and Young People, as set out in the legislation, is:

As part of the commissioner's remit, she has a duty to keep under review the adequacy and effectiveness of law, practice and services in relation to the rights and best interests of children and young people. In so doing, she has to have due regard to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC).

From our written evidence, you will be aware that shared education is an issue that NICCY has been working on for a number of years, most intensively since the publication of the Programme for Government commitment to:

NICCY has provided assistance to the Minister by consulting over 6,000 children and young people to explore their views and experiences of shared education, in the hope that their views will meaningfully inform shared education policy and legislation. You will be aware that the commissioner presented those findings in October 2014. While I will refer to some of those, I do not want to go into the detail of them again, because you obviously have that information already.

Shared education offers an opportunity to all of us in Northern Ireland to positively change how we educate our children and young people.

It is an extremely important policy initiative, but it is vital to get it right. There are, undoubtedly, potential benefits for pupils from different backgrounds, communities and schools having opportunities to learn together and to develop a greater understanding of each other. In the longer term, there are obviously wider societal benefits.

Children and young people are not a homogeneous group. They have multiple identities and differences, which can often present challenges in an educational context. Shared education has the potential to address those challenges and enhance and broaden the educational experience for all children and young people. It is that opportunity that NICCY wishes to see grasped by the Shared Education Bill. Article 29 of the UNCRC provides a useful insight into the obligations on government with regard to the provision of education. It states that education must be child-centred, child-friendly and empowering. The goal is to strengthen the child's capacity to enjoy the full range of human rights, to promote a culture infused by appropriate human rights values and to empower the child through developing his or her skills. It is also about developing their learning and other capacities and promoting human dignity, self-esteem and self-confidence. In this context, education goes far beyond formal schooling to embrace the broad range of life experiences and learning processes, which enable children to develop their personalities, talents and abilities and to live a full and satisfying life.

Education should be delivered in ways that promote mutual understanding, tolerance and acceptance, and which helps to prevent violence and conflict. The Committee on the Rights of the Child has elaborated on those obligations in its general comment 1. The aims of education state that the school environment must reflect tolerance and equality and promote peace and understanding. It is clear that schools that allow bullying, intolerance and inequality are in breach of article 29 of the UNCRC. NICCY wishes to see the inclusion of the obligations on the Department in the Shared Education Bill to ensure that all children have access to an education that is reflective of the UNCRC obligations. It with those obligations in mind that we express our disappointment with the proposed legal definition of shared education at clause 1(2) of the Shared Education Bill. It is the commissioner's view that the definition provided in the Bill is much too narrow and does not reflect the Department's much broader vision of shared education, as provided in its policy document, 'Sharing Works: A Policy for Shared Education'.

In that document, the Department defines its vision for shared education. It includes the promotion of:

It also states that shared education is the delivery of education that meets the needs of learners from the different section 75 categories and:

The Department goes on to specifically reference the groups of children it intends will benefit from shared education. It includes children from different religious backgrounds, children from different racial backgrounds, children with and without disabilities, children who are carers and school-age mothers. It is, therefore, extremely disappointing that the definition provided in the Bill refers only to children of different religious belief and, specifically, only to education that includes "reasonable numbers" of Protestant and Roman Catholic children or young persons. Also specifically included in the definition of shared education in the Bill are children who are experiencing socio-economic deprivation and those who are not.

The draft definition in the Bill is much too restrictive and is not reflective of the Department's all-encompassing vision of shared education. There is no reference in the proposed statutory definition to pupils in any section 75 categories, other than religious beliefs, and no religions are specifically included, other than Protestant and Catholic. In addition, the definition does not provide for the inclusion of pupils attending different categories of schools, nor does it make provision for sharing between schools in different geographical locations, including urban and rural partnerships.

It is clear from the explanatory and financial memorandum that the legislative definition references the minimum essential requirements for shared education. However, no information is provided in the Bill or in the memorandum to the Bill regarding the use of the terms "reasonable numbers" or "socio-economic deprivation". It is important that those terms are clarified.

If shared education is to be organised and delivered in such a way as to provide opportunities for children from the different section 75 groups, as envisaged by the Department, the definition provided in legislation should reflect that. If the opportunities presented by shared education are to be meaningfully realised for all children and young people, the broader definition should be included. NICCY suggests that consideration be given to amending the current draft legislation and to use of the suggested definition of shared education in page 17 of our written submission, which is already with the Committee.

Educational inequalities, as you will be aware, are one of the commissioner's priority areas for action. Research tells us that certain groups of children have different educational experiences from others. We address that issue in detail in our written submission and do not wish to reiterate those points today given the time constraints. However, it is worth noting that there are groups of children and young people who face significant difficulties in accessing education in Northern Ireland. The report of the ministerial advisory group, 'Advancing Shared Education', highlights the concerns that exist about whether the educational and social needs of particular groups of children and young people are being met, including Traveller children, black and minority ethnic children, children and young people in care, children and young people with disabilities, those with special educational needs, and children and young people who are LGBT. Those groups of children tend to have poorer educational outcomes and disproportionately negative educational experiences. It is vital, particularly given the withdrawal of funding from the Department of Education's community relations, equality and diversity (CRED) policy, that shared education deals with all kinds of difference and is not solely focused on Catholics and Protestants and socio-economic deprivation.

The aim of the CRED policy, as you will be aware, was to contribute to improving relations between communities by educating children and young people to develop self-respect and respect for others by providing them, in formal and non-formal education settings, with opportunities to build relationships with those from different backgrounds and traditions. The Department has a statutory obligation to mitigate the adverse impact as a result of the withdrawal of CRED through shared education. It made a commitment to do so in the equality impact assessment (EQIA) on the withdrawal of funding for CRED. The definition and implementation of shared education needs to include all groups of children in order to deliver on that commitment.

In regard to the implementation of shared education, it is vital that the concerns raised by some of the children and young people whom we spoke to are reflected, if not in the Bill, at least in any supporting guidance. It is concerning to the commissioner that a significant minority of young people whom we spoke to about shared education described having mixed experiences of such initiatives, where interaction with pupils from other schools had been negative or limited. Some of the issues raised also included children feeling uncomfortable if they were in a minority or out of place when attending classes in another school. Some described collaborative activities in joint classes as shared but separate because pupils remained within their own school or friendship groups. Interaction with pupils from other schools had also been limited. A number of logistical issues, including transport arrangements and timetabling variations between schools, also impacted on pupils' experiences. Some expressed concern about sharing their education with those from particular schools. Their concerns related to academic ability, cross-community issues, standards of behaviour and the increased potential for bullying. Decisions regarding the planning and development of shared education must be informed by the views and experiences of children and young people, in compliance with article 12 of the UNCRC and section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act.

NICCY has concerns that shared education is viewed as an end in itself rather than as a means to an end: that is, promoting a shared future. We are also mindful that the Department has a statutory duty to encourage and facilitate the development of integrated education. While we welcome the opportunities afforded by the development of shared education for children to be educated together, NICCY wishes to see a situation where both are viewed as part of the education continuum; the ultimate goal being a truly integrated system of education in Northern Ireland where children of all races, all religions and none, genders, abilities, sexual orientation, ages, and so on, are educated together.

I have one final point. Clause 2 details the bodies that may encourage and facilitate shared education. It is disappointing that further education colleges are not included in the sharing initiatives. Many of the schools that took part in NICCY's consultation on shared education regarded joint classes with local further education colleges as part of their shared learning experience. We therefore wish to see an amendment to the list of bodies in clause 2(2) to include further education, the Department for Employment and Learning, and the Department for the Economy under the new arrangements next year. The report of the ministerial advisory group highlighted the importance of ensuring that shared education encompasses all sectors, from early childhood services to further education colleges.

That concludes the formal presentation. We are happy to take any questions.

The Chairperson (Mr Weir): Thank you. First, I should say that the Committee has expressed concerns about the CRED funding.

I understand why you suggest a different approach to the definition. Will you comment on the practical outworkings? One of the main purposes of the definition is to act as a funding filter. A range of shared education projects are likely to be coming on stream in the next few years, and there will have to be a mechanism by which a judgement can be made as to whether a particular business case for a project counts as shared education. If the wider definition is taken, do you see that as a reasonably holistic approach as to whether you simply judge something as being shared education or not? Given the various categories, is it a case of having to tick all the boxes or would simply ticking any of the boxes, which could be seen as a dilution, count? There is the practical issue of outworking from the implementation, so I would be interested to hear your views on that.

Ms McCafferty: We appreciate the complexity of promoting and monitoring shared education. We had a conversation in a meeting earlier this week with the Minister and officials about this. We appreciate that, in the legislation, it is probably sometimes necessary for pragmatic and practical reasons to have the narrow definition. If we are going to make sure that that is in the guidance that supports the legislation, that could be considered. The commissioner feels that because the definition is very narrow compared with what it was in the policy document, that has been a cause for concern across the sector and other organisations.

The Chairperson (Mr Weir): To be fair, my second point is more for the Department than yourselves. You raised the two areas where there is a lack of clarity around definition, namely what counts as socio-economic deprivation and how that is measured, and the issue of reasonable numbers. It is probably more a question of testing where the Department is on that, but do you have any views on the definitional side of that from your perspective?

Ms McCafferty: As you say, Chair, it is a matter for the Department to define "reasonable numbers" but there are concerns because of the interpretation of that and what that could look like in practice. We are told that in the integrated education sector, for example, the ratio is a 60:40 split. We would very much like clarification on how that definition is interpreted as that rolls out. We would not want to put a figure on that, but we would want to see that reflected in the diversity of the children and young people and being proportionate to the society that we live in.

The Chairperson (Mr Weir): OK, thank you. You raised an issue that it may be worth us exploring with departmental officials next week. Somebody else, and I cannot remember who, yesterday raised the same issue with me about further education colleges. The Minister may be restricted in what he can directly put down when it affects others, but it may be worth exploring with the Department next week whether there has been any contact with DEL on that issue. I appreciate the point that has been made.

Mr Hazzard: Thanks for your presentation. Do you think that children are sufficiently aware of what shared education is and its potential? Secondly, you are asking for a wider definition of "shared education". Do we need to do something similar with "integrated", which is defined simply as Catholic and Protestant? Does "integrated", as well, now need to look at its legal definition?

Ms McCafferty: Chris, I will take your second point. It is self-evident that, when we are looking at education, we would like to see the diversity of the children and young people in the education system reflected. One of the important things is that we have to look at our remit, and the remit of the office is very much about looking after the best interests of children and young people. Do we think that their best interests are served in a more inclusive environment? Absolutely.

Your question about the integrated education sector is a matter for it; we are not here to comment on that. However, again, for the same reason, it is in the best interests of children and young people and for Northern Ireland society at a wider level that we have proper, integrated education. That is across the board. It should be inclusive of the diversity that we see in our society today, and we should use shared education and integrated education as part of the education continuum that will eventually see the kind of society that we want to see in Northern Ireland.

Ms Natalie Whelehan (Office of the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Children and Young People): I will answer the other part of your question. As Mairéad said, NICCY carried out quite an intensive consultation with almost 6,000 children and young people across all the various types of schools in Northern Ireland in 2012-13. Roughly 50% of post-primary students were unaware of what shared education meant at that stage, and fewer primary-school students were aware of what it meant.

To be honest, I do not think that that is reflective of anything other than that this is a new initiative and they would not have had huge amounts of experience of shared education. Those who tended to know what it was tended to have had experience of shared education, and I expect that number to be higher now with the pilot programmes that are rolling out at the moment. Certainly, it is something that we need to make everyone aware of, if it is going to be a new policy initiative that will change the face of education. That includes parents. There is a lack of knowledge and understanding, generally, about what the implications could be.

As Mairéad said, it is important that the definition of shared education is reflective of the educational experiences of all the children and young people in school in Northern Ireland and that the educational inequalities, in terms of outcomes and experience, that are suffered by some groups of children and young people are reflected in the legislation, so that we can start to tackle some of that at a very rudimentary level.

Mr Newton: I welcome Ms McCafferty and Ms Whelehan. Chair, your questions covered where I was coming from, although you were much more eloquent than I might have been.

The Chairperson (Mr Weir): Do not think that crawling will get you extra time, Robin. [Laughter.]

Mr Newton: You have replied to the Chair on the definition. I welcome the very detailed paper that you submitted. Unless I missed it within it, you have not attempted to give a definition of shared education.

Ms Whelehan: We have, actually. It is on page 17 of the written submission. It basically reflects the section 75 categories. That is ideally what we would like to see. I appreciate that there will be challenges in the implementation of that, and, possibly, those are challenges that cannot be overcome in the outworkings of it. However, if shared education is to deliver on the policy envisaged under 'Sharing Works', we would like all those groups to be included. They are the ones that are suffering disadvantage in both attainment and educational experience. We think that it would make a huge difference to the educational outcomes and experiences of those very vulnerable groups of children.

The Chairperson (Mr Weir): I do not see any other members wanting to ask questions. We may have caught up a little bit of time. Thanks very much. That has been a very useful session in focusing our minds on those issues.