Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): Sonya McMullan is the regional services manager of the Women's Aid Federation. You are very welcome, Sonya, as always. The session is being reported by Hansard, and, in due course, we will publish a transcript.

Sonya, please outline some of the key issues in respect of the Bill from the perspective of your organisation. Then we will open the meeting up to questions and discussion.

Ms Sonya McMullan (Women's Aid Federation Northern Ireland): I thank the Justice Committee for giving us the opportunity to talk about the Protection from Stalking Bill. I am speaking on behalf of our eight local Women's Aid groups across Northern Ireland. I hope to be able to portray, during this session, the voices of the women in our services.

We take the opportunity to thank the Committee and acknowledge the considerable work that has been undertaken in the last year with the introduction of the Domestic Abuse and Civil Proceedings Act (Northern Ireland) 2021.

It has been a busy year for everyone, and now we look forward to a new piece of legislation. We first presented on stalking within our evidence for the domestic abuse legislation. We really welcome the fact that the new legislation, together with protection orders, will protect these victims of crime.

At present, we have the Protection from Harassment (Northern Ireland) Order 1997, which, many people will agree, is not fit for purpose in 2021. It has been 24 years since that legislation came into place, and there have been developments in online cyber abuse and technology, which everyone finds it difficult to keep up with. The perpetrators of those crimes are always a few steps ahead, and the forms of abuse move faster than anyone can keep up with. The lack of definition in the legislation has also been a problem. Enforcement comes down to the Police Service. There is a lack of understanding around stalking and harassment, which has also been an issue. However, if you do not have legislation for stalking, that is a problem.

Our response to the Justice Committee has been informed by our local groups across Northern Ireland, as I said, including the staff and volunteers. We have had a lot of consultation with our member services and survivors. We always include women. We carried out a brief piece of research for our evidence, entitled 'Women's Voices'. I hope that Committee members had a chance to read that, in the evidence that we submitted.

We welcome the proposed Protection from Stalking Bill, but we also see it as an opportunity to change the response to domestic violence and abuse and, indeed, all forms of violence against women and girls. That is why, in March of this year, we released a public petition for a violence against women and girls strategy. We call on the Justice Committee to support us in that. That petition is with the Executive Office at the moment. I know that we discussed this at length during the domestic abuse consultation, but in stalking, together with other forms of gender-based violence or crimes, women are disproportionately the victims. As I have the opportunity, I want to raise that with the Committee. We hope to have your support with that particular issue.

I do not have to go over the rates of crime in relation to domestic violence. Members all know that we have staggeringly high statistics in Northern Ireland. Some 17·5% of all crime reported to the PSNI is domestic violence-related, and the PSNI responds to a domestic abuse incident every 17 minutes.

I suppose that the most staggering statistic that I read in the last year was in a piece that Allison Morris wrote on 23 March. On the front of the 'Belfast Telegraph' is a photograph of eight women: eight women who were murdered. We have to see the causal link between domestic homicide and stalking. We remember each and every one of those women who lost their life.

We have to remember that stalking is a crime and a way of abusing a woman and that it is linked to domestic homicide. We have taken that learning from reviews that were undertaken in England and Wales. We welcome the introduction of domestic homicide reviews here, and the first homicide review will begin soon. However, we have to see the link between stalking and the learning from those reviews.

According to the 'Crime Survey for England and Wales', almost one in five women over the age of 16 has experienced stalking. The statistics are huge. PSNI statistics do not include any stalking-related crimes. We look at it in relation to harassment. In the last year, the PSNI statistics showed 3,880 offences of harassment, which was a 26% increase; again, staggeringly high figures. It shows that there is a major concern where there is not an appropriate mechanism to deal with malicious communications and cyberstalking. As we see, those behaviours are often used in conjunction with other forms of domestic violence.

That brings us to the link between stalking and domestic abuse. There is much evidence for a link between domestic violence and abuse, stalking and coercive control. There is a public misconception that stalking is unnecessary, unwanted attention from an obsessive stranger or maybe somebody with a mental health issue. However, we see many different stalking behaviours.

When we did our research into women using our service, they told us about unwanted and often persistent communication via text message, for example, and cyberstalking: fake profiles being created; social media exploitation; sharing of images online; and perpetrators being able to access everything — videos, for example, and even bank accounts. It is frightening how advanced the perpetrators of stalking crime are. They seem to be one step ahead all the time. That is why any stalking legislation must be fluid on those abusive behaviours and able to adapt to changes.

Victims are followed to work. They are monitored, and their daily movements are tracked. Sometimes, they have to leave work or are disciplined in work because of stalking behaviour, which includes following victims home to find out where they live, waiting outside their home — even waiting outside Women's Aid resource centres — and leaving gifts for them. The leaving of gifts is a huge issue for us because it is often misconstrued — for example, by the PSNI and courts — as a nice gesture. Usually, those gifts are a way of reminding the victim of the perpetrator's presence. Stalking also includes contacting friends and family to get information and installing covert cameras and listening devices in the home. A new one that we heard about when we did that research was drones being used over people's houses. The lengths to which people will go to film, stalk and harass others are frightening.

Any new legislation must provide greater clarity to all, including police officers, lawyers, judges and magistrates, through a similar provision to the mandatory obligation for training that we called for in the Domestic Abuse and Civil Proceedings Act (Northern Ireland) 2021. We stress that new law alone will not improve the lives of stalking victims; successful awareness campaigns are required.

Stalking by ex-partners is a big issue that came up. I reiterate that women are more likely to suffer serious harm or homicide when they are stalked, especially where there is a previous or current intimate partner relationship with the stalker. Again, that shows how important it is that the judiciary and Police Service know about those kinds of stalking behaviours and high-risk indicators. Stalking by ex-partners who are domestic abusers is one of the most common forms. The cornerstone of stalking is control. In some cases, it is a combination of both, or it fluctuates between the two. We know that domestic violence does not end at the point of separation. Often, people are at most danger when they have left or are leaving a relationship.

We welcome the discussion on stalking protection orders. The current system does not give legal protection to victims of harassment, and certainly not stalking. That proposal would have a positive impact on victims of stalking, with faster access to protective orders through reporting stalking to the police, rather than having to apply to the court themselves. However, there is an issue with costs and whether they will sit with the victim, the Police Service or whomever. Nobody should have to pay for protection. A protection order would give stalking victims in Northern Ireland similar protections to those in other jurisdictions and prevent the escalation of stalker behaviour. Hopefully, it would encourage more people to come forward, which is all that we want.

In addition to banning perpetrators from approaching or contacting victims, the orders can force stalkers to seek professional help. However, where are those behaviour management programmes? Mental health programmes and addiction services in Northern Ireland are the kinds of things that are being looked at and discussed in the context of this legislation. Who would manage them and monitor that? Where will the resource come from? We are concerned about that.

Interim orders are great as well because they provide immediate protection for victims while a decision is being made and further help to protect victims. We also support the need for a register of serial perpetrators of domestic violence and stalkers. We would like the Committee to consider that.

Briefly, I would like to introduce the Northern Ireland context, because it is really important. In the evidence, you will see that several women spoke bravely about their stories of paramilitary links, which was shocking to hear. As somebody who has worked in Women's Aid for almost 25 years, I found it very worrying that there is still such a hold on those communities and that women are living in such fear and distress. There are examples of covert cameras being put on neighbours' houses and many other examples of the control that ex-partners still exert. Those women fear that they cannot leave and that there is no way out, which is very difficult, and there is a huge vulnerability for those who come forward to share their stories. I feel a huge vulnerability even from sharing their stories, and the risk placed on the Women's Aid groups that support those women must not be underestimated. We spoke confidentially to a number of women who shared their experiences, and they were very frightened when doing that.

When I started in Women's Aid all that time ago, we heard a lot about legal and illegal firearms being used to cause fear. Some of the stalking behaviours included cameras being installed on neighbours' houses, death threats and being watched and monitored, with cars just sitting outside their homes. There are also instances of stalking behaviours continuing when the partners are in prison. One women told me that her partner rang her from prison and asked, "Why were your curtains not open until 10.00 am?" Even in prison, he had that level of control over an individual, which is really frightening. I wanted to raise that issue. There is also a cross-border issue with stalking: for example, if you live in Newry and your stalker is in Monaghan; or if you live in Letterkenny and your stalker is in Derry. That is an issue in border areas.

We talked a great deal about a mandatory obligation for training in the Domestic Abuse and Civil Proceedings Act, and we cannot emphasise enough that we would like a similar model replicated in this Bill. There is so much learning required to understand the process of stalking and its associated behaviours. Therefore, we call for specialist training, and we encourage a public awareness campaign.

In conclusion, there are, of course, significant potential benefits to introducing this law. We know that stalking did not fit within the provisions of the Domestic Abuse and Civil Proceedings Act and welcome that it is getting separate legislation. The Bill supports victims and survivors of stalking. We do an awful lot of risk assessment and safety planning, and we provide emotional and practical support for victims of stalking. We see the impact that those things can have. For us, it is about getting across the seemingly minor behaviours that, in conjunction with each other, cause fear and alarm to victims.

Importantly, intent should not have to be proven. That is a huge issue with, for example, breaches of orders, and we want to raise it in relation to stalking. Instead, an objective and reasonable test should be applied. A victim's reaction of fear and alarm, and the reasonableness of that fear given the context of the relationship between the victim and the stalker, should be central to the offence.

We have talked about public awareness campaigns to dispel myths and about training for police, judges, prosecutors and legal professionals. We reiterate the urgent need for those protective measures through the orders, but the cost of those must be looked at. Legislation is only part of tackling stalking. Much further work needs to be done to raise awareness, tackle cultural and behavioural issues and change societal views. So, we are back to education, which has been discussed so much over the last few months, especially around the Violence against Women and Girls strategy after the tragic murder of Sarah Everard and other murders closer to home. It is essential that the Justice Committee take the time to talk to victims and survivors, as you have done previously, listen — previously, you have really listened — and let them tell their stories of what it is like to live in fear of a stalker. Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): Thank you, Sonya. You have provided a very comprehensive overview. Again, thank you for the vital work that your organisation does. I will bring in members to ask questions, after which I will pick up on any issues that have not been covered.

Ms Dillon: Thank you, Sonya, for your presentation, which, as the Chair said, was very comprehensive. We appreciate your coming to the Committee today. You have outlined how stalking crosses over into coercive control and domestic abuse. We are aware that there will be crossover, but having two pieces of legislation was probably the best way for us to go forward. They absolutely should complement each other. That speaks to the importance of training in and understanding all that legislation. That is vital. I outlined to the Human Rights Commission's chief commissioner, who was with us just before you came in, that the Committee will put the same emphasis on training, monitoring, making sure that we are collecting data and improving where improvements are needed. We will make sure that any mistakes, or anything that is not right or has not been implemented correctly, are addressed. I reassure you that we, as a Committee, will be as focused on that work as we were on the Bill to tackle domestic abuse. I certainly intend to take the same approach to the stalking Bill.

There are a few wee points that I want to tease out with you or ask you about. You referred to the roll-out of training in the use of the domestic abuse, stalking and honour-based violence (DASH) form for the PSNI. Do you have an idea of how that issue could be resolved? Does it require better training and resourcing, which we will ask for anyway, or does something else need to happen? If you do not mind, Chair, I will get an answer to that before I move on to my next point.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): No problem.

Ms McMullan: It is interesting. We have a tool, which is the DASH form. I tried to get some information and data from the police. It was a very short time ago, but I would love to get that research to see how often those extra questions are used. It is a very good and robust tool. A new DASH form is being piloted, but it is currently reviewed all the time. It would be useful to look at that, pull it out and give training. The police are going through extensive training in coercive control. It could be added to all new recruits' training. Women's Aid uses the questions more often. I asked a lot of our support workers, and many of them use it. As a tool, it is there, and there is no point in reinventing the wheel with a new assessment. It is about looking at how we introduce it and include it in, for example, new recruit training and refresher training for the PSNI. The PSNI and Women's Aid are the two biggest providers of DASH forms.

Ms Dillon: I suggest, Chair, that the Committee write to the Policing Board and the Chief Constable to ask for that to be addressed. We should suggest that they have conversations with Women's Aid about how best to address that and take its steer and advice on it. It is not about telling them how to do their job; we all look to those who have the expertise in these areas to give us advice, and the police should not be any different. That issue should be addressed. If we do not need any further work on it in the legislation, we should ensure that it is being used to its full potential.

Sonya, you said that stalking protection orders are not appropriate for a child under 16. For the record, I agree. Do you have any idea of what type of interventions would be appropriate for children and young people under the age of 16 who engage in behaviours that could be construed as stalking? I do not want to put you on the spot. If you do not have any ideas and think that it needs to be looked at by the Department, I am OK with that. I just wonder whether you have any ideas about interventions that may be used.

Ms McMullan: We do not support the criminalisation of younger people. The age of criminal responsibility in Northern Ireland is 10, which is far too young, but that is a discussion for another day.

It all comes back to education and behavioural programmes. What behavioural programme are there for young boys or young girls who feel that they have those behaviours and are worried about their anger or challenging behaviours? Not every young person grows up in a home where there is a healthy relationship. That is why we are back to good, robust relationships and sexuality education (RSE). We discussed that at length during the progress of the Domestic Abuse and Civil Proceedings Bill. There is also a training and awareness subgroup within the Gillen review, where a lot of work is ongoing.

There has to be a societal change — a whole change of attitude. We need to give our young people an opportunity. It really is not all up to education; it is also up to public awareness campaigns. I do not feel that we have strong enough behavioural management programmes for children and young people who display worrying behaviours. Again, that is back to investment and resourcing.

However, a lot lies with education, healthy relationship programmes, equality and trust — all the things that we have. We have a wonderful post-primary healthy relationship programme, but, again, it is ad hoc and depends on what schools allow us in. We have the problem of opposition from boards of governors and parents to some of the programmes. There is an awful lot of work to be done, but an awful lot is ongoing.

Sorry, Linda, I do not know whether I answered your question.

Ms Dillon: You did, and you probably said exactly what I have been thinking, but I wanted to make sure. I do not like to think that I know it all, and I want to be sure that I am right in my thinking. I agree that we cannot stress enough the importance of RSE and education. I do not intend to dwell on that because I am sure that members and everyone around me are fed up listening to me talk about education. I see it as a vital tool.

Breaches of SPOs carry a maximum sentence of six months in this legislation. Women's Aid thinks that it should be 12 months. I do not disagree with you, for two reasons, which I outlined to the Human Rights Commission. My first question is: is that long enough? We rarely see the maximum sentence being used for anything, so, if six months is the maximum, what sentences will people actually receive? I am concerned about that.

Secondly, what opportunity is there to rehabilitate in any real way somebody who is sentenced to four or eight weeks? You are right about behavioural programmes. I do not know of any in my area. I am not saying that they are not there, but I do not know of any. If I do not know of them, what hope is there for anybody else?

Plenty of good work is going on in the prison system. It is a sad indictment of us as a society and as an Assembly that people have to go to jail before they get the support that they need. However, we know that there is support. There are some really good programmes in our prison and rehabilitation system.

That is my view of the six-month or 12-month sentence. You stated your position that it should be extended to 12 months. I want to give you an opportunity to outline why.

Ms McMullan: For any individual with a sentence of under six months, there is no rehabilitation in prison. Where is the learning, and where will the change happen in behaviour? Where is the opportunity for that person to undertake that type of programme?

As you said, maximum sentences are very rarely used. That is why it is key that we have good, robust judiciary training to look at the broad extent of that and the link between domestic homicide and stalking. We must not underestimate that.

However, it comes back to the rehabilitation programmes. The Domestic Abuse and Civil Proceedings Act and this Bill talk about other programmes that could be used. They reference mental health and addiction programmes, and a lot of those will be run by the voluntary sector. Who will monitor and oversee the commitment to those programmes and to the good and robust rehabilitation behavioural management programmes that, as you said, we do not have at the moment? The resources for that have not been there. If any legislation is to work, it has to have money behind it. It has to have resources and investment, or we will go around in circles again.

Ms Dillon: I do not disagree with you on that, Sonya. Thank you for coming to the Committee and for the opportunity to ask questions. I have to leave the meeting just before 4.00 pm. You will probably not be finished by then, so I wanted to make you aware of it. Thank you, and I apologise to the Chair and the Committee for having to leave early. Thank you very much, Sonya. I appreciate it.

Ms McMullan: Thank you.

Ms S Bradley: Thank you, Sonya, not only for your presentation but for your detailed paper. You have raised some really good points. If we point to the behavioural model as part of the solution, we will need to know that those programmes are in place. Like Linda, I am not overly aware of them. That is not to say that they do not exist. They do not necessarily need to be advertised, but we need to know that they are there, that there is direct access to them and that they are working.

I start with your point about the amendments and a register of persistent behaviours. I appreciate that that covers persistent offenders. My concern is about the number of cases that do not reach conviction but have the pattern of persistent offending, such as, maybe, somebody who is very good at manipulating the system or, as you said, is a step ahead of it. I would like to explore that work further, and I appreciate the fact that you raised it.

From the perspective of the Women's Aid Federation and the offices that you represent, has there been any noticeable change in the type of cases that are coming forward? Is more online or digital activity that is related to abuse and stalking being reported to you?

Has there been any reflection on whether the Bill, in its current form, captures or pins down the stories that you hear? I appreciate that that is in your telling of the stories, Sonya. We had the opportunity to hear from victims, and no doubt we will do so again. Their experiences bring this issue to life and make us realise the importance of our getting it right and pinning down the right points. We have put a lot of thought into the digital part of the Bill, and our consideration has slanted that way. I want to be absolutely sure that that reflects what comes through your doors.

I am uncomfortable with the application of the orders being limited to people who are in Northern Ireland. Do you have any evidence to suggest that that will not cut it? I do not want to pre-empt anything, but I want to know whether there is real stuff that would have an effect on the ground.

Ms McMullan: Yes, we have seen a noticeable change in relation to cyberstalking, which is that online abuse. As I said in my presentation, they are always one step ahead with tracking. We encourage women to go to a garage and to get their car lifted up because that is the only way to find tracking devices underneath a car. People start to think, "Am I going mad? What is going on here?", but they are being tracked. People can hack in very creative ways and will hack into bank accounts and things like that, which is really dangerous.

A lot of images are being posted, superimposing people on someone else's body. Very difficult images are being shared. Images that were taken with consent may then be shared without consent on online platforms. The list goes on and on. Drones present a new issue. They can remain over your garden or your house all the time. Online abuse is really worrying. From conversations that I have had with the police, I know that they find that very challenging.

I will address the clauses and the definitions in the Bill. The Protection from Harassment (Northern Ireland) Order 1997 has really aged. None of this existed then. The order talks about phone calls and about messages being left, which does not reflect today's society at all. That is why we need a fluid list of behaviours that is not seen as exhaustive and that can be developed and interpreted in the legislation. You could not name all the behaviours; there are so many that we cannot keep up with them, to be honest. That is really difficult. There is a huge increase in that form of abuse. You do not need to be physically present in a room with someone to carry out those behaviours and to instill fear and distress. We cannot emphasise that enough. That is out of your control.

I cannot remember the second part of your question. Sorry, I thought that I had written it down.

Ms S Bradley: That is OK. I threw a lot at you. Can you add your thoughts about amendments to the register?

Ms McMullan: In Women's Aid, we are very passionate about the register, particularly for domestic abuse. That is a repeat crime. That is one reason that we pushed for that off the back of the Domestic Abuse Act in Westminster and all the support for a register for serial perpetrators.

We want to capture those people who are not using Women's Aid services and are not known to social services or the police. There are always such people. Let us hope that more people come forward as a result of this new legislation. That is also what we want from a violence against women and girls strategy. Linda talked about collecting data. We do not know how many people are being stalked in Northern Ireland, because we do not have the legislation. Nobody is collecting the data on stalking, and the PSNI does not have that data set. We need to see the true picture of all forms of violence against women and girls. That is the only way in which we can make a difference. We do not know what we are dealing with.

Ms S Bradley: Thank you, Sonya. I fully agree with that. You have our support on the strategy, but you are right about the data set. With all our best intentions, we would like to get every Bill right first time, but we do not collect the data along the way to find out what cases have come forward and to track them through the system to find out, if they do not reach conviction, why that is the case. It may be that they should not have or that there was a breakdown in the legislation or the burden of proof. We need to open up that conversation about capturing the data along the way. I suppose that the register is the ultimate piece when it comes to repetitive behaviour, but repetitive behaviour that happened further upstream may never make it onto a register. I am conscious of the need to think about that further to see how we can capture as much as we can along the way.

Thank you, again, Sonya. I appreciate that.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): Sinéad covered one of my questions, which was about the register of serial offenders. I appreciate that.

No other members have indicated that they want in. Thank you, Sonya. I am sure that we will come back to you about some issues in due course, but I appreciate your coming to the Committee today.

Ms McMullan: Thank you.