Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): I welcome the folks from La Dolce Vita Project. The meeting will be recorded by Hansard, and the transcript will be published in due course. I think that Donna-Maria Logue and Andrea O'Hagan are joining us.

Ms Donna-Maria Logue (La Dolce Vita Project): Yes. That is correct.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): Great. I will hand over to you to give your presentation, after which we will move into questions.

Ms Logue: Good afternoon, everyone. I start by thanking the Justice Committee for giving us the opportunity speak to you about the Protection from Stalking Bill. I thank everybody behind the scenes — Allison and Christine — who have worked on digital support and administration to make sure that this goes ahead.

La Dolce Vita Project is a non-gender domestic abuse and parental alienation charity based in Derry. I am the founder and director of services. We previously submitted our evidence in writing, and I hope that you have had time to read it. I will elaborate on that today, taking a look at stalking behaviours, barriers, the misuse of a person's professional capacity, education and training requirements, and the use of a child to spy on or target a parent; that is a very common stalking and alienating strategy, which I will come to shortly.

You will hear directly from Andrea, who is here beside me. I thank Andrea for joining us. We are also joined by Becky, who is her guide dog. I am not sure whether you can see her. We thank Becky for keeping us all nice and calm. Andrea will share with you her real-life experience of stalking.

Through our own research, conferences and beneficiary feedback, it has come to us that there is a real lack of understanding and miscommunication of harassment and stalking. There are also clear links between domestic abuse and stalking. Many of the risk assessments completed by our team on stalking have identified indirect and direct harm to a person and also that person's child. It was said in a session, for example, that, "My ex-partner was able to tell me where I was, what I was doing, what I was wearing and who I was with. I was then threatened that if I was with that person again, I might not see my children".

We know that noted stalking behaviours include the monitoring of movements. At this point, I would like to share with you a brief background of a person's experience and how they came to us for support. A person came to us and was unsure what was going on. Was it domestic abuse, coercive control or stalking? It later transpired that it was a combination of every form of abuse. The most common tactic that was being used was that he was able to determine where she was. He had sent her a message letting her know when she had left her sister's house. He sent a text message about what she was wearing and who she was in town with that day. He was also able to tell her whether or not her children were with her. It later transpired that he was using his professional capacity as a security man to monitor those movements. We would like stalking conduct or act to capture that employment status and to note that employment status or professional capacity is not to be used, or misused, to abuse and cause fear, alarm or substantial stress to a person or their children.

We are aware that cyberstalking and misuse of telecommunications is very common. Fake accounts are created. Alienating parents will use a child to spy on or stalk the targeted parent and report back to the alienating parent by making use of social media accounts and mobile devices. Only recently, a parent disclosed to me that her son's mobile device was misused so that her and her son's whereabouts were always known. It transpired that the Find My iPhone app was being used. That app gave her ex-partner details of the mum and son's location without their knowledge. It allowed him the opportunity to appear at locations, and she did not know how he had got there. For example, he was at the shopping centre, the hairdressers and at an appointment with her son. The app was added to the son's device to monitor movements.

Mandy Matthewson, Janet Haines and Marcus Turnbull created the book 'Understanding and Managing Parental Alienation'. It documents that, under the family violence Act, things perpetrated by alienating parents include monitoring movements, monitoring movements on social media, following the targeted parent and spying on the targeted parent. In Amy Baker's Baker strategy questionnaire, one of the most common answers was, "I was asked to spy on or secretly obtain information from or about another parent and report back to them".

We are very aware of cases where a child takes on the role of abuser when a person leaves an abusive relationship. Children are manipulated or intimidated to threaten, spy or cause harm. Alienating parents will use emotional manipulation, verbal abuse and financial abuse to gain control over the children. When we look at examples of family violence, we see that those include harmful acts of assault, abuse, intimidation, stalking and threats. We did a lot of work on the Domestic Abuse Bill, and we know that there is a crossover between the Bills. However, we are delighted to see that stalking is being dealt with in a separate Bill. We must bring in the alienating strategy because children are being used to spy on a parent, monitor their movements and cause harm to a parent. These acts of stalking cause fear. I will describe a parent's experience that was brought to us:

Teddy was a bear that Daddy had given to the child. Daddy told the child that if he had any worries, he could tell Teddy, and Teddy would let Daddy know. The conversation that transpired included a child saying:

That is a form of domestic abuse and coercive control but, most importantly, stalking. The child is being used to monitor and spy, and the other parent is using the information to cause harm. However, the child is being harmed, directly and indirectly.

I will pass over to Andrea, who will share her understanding of what happened to her when she was stalked. She will detail some recommendations for the Bill before passing back to me.

Ms Andrea O'Hagan (La Dolce Vita Project): Hello. There were several incidents of stalking against me, a blind disabled person. The first incident was things being moved about by the abuser, which caused me a lot of stress, pressure and anxiety. It caused pressure about raising my kids and whether I was doing the right job in bringing them up.

The second incident was a bit more frightening. The stalker came to the house unannounced. He came in the back door of my house to take my kids off me. I had not been made aware of that by the authorities, but he said that they had given him permission to do that. However, that was not the case. I had to contact the police. The police came out and took a statement. It was extremely scary and frightening and made me afraid in my own home.

The third incident of stalking was probably the worst. I was training with my dog in an area that I know pretty well. He found out that I was out training with the dog. He parked across the main road. He came over and started shouting abuse at me because I had left the kids with friends. He said that he should have been told about that. All the incidents are quite frightening and stressful and lead you to stop living your own life.

As a blind disabled person, I would love to see the Bill produced in accessible formats such as large print, braille and audio. If the Bill is put onto a mobile phone app, that app should be accessible through the voice-overs on iPhones, iPads and Androids.

Ms Logue: Thank you very much for sharing that. I know that that was stressful for you at the time. While that stalking was happening, it was also causing stress for Becky, the new guide dog who was being trained. At that time, Becky was getting to know locations and how to find her way home. His unannounced appearance had a very significant harmful impact on both Andrea and Becky.

We are delighted to hear your recommendations on accessibility of information-sharing; we hope that you take those on. As you heard from Andrea, we would like you to consider including in the meaning of conduct:

Not including this will create barriers to reporting.

We already know that levels of prosecution for stalking are low, and the disabled rank lower down the line, so it is important that the views of those who are registered disabled are taken on board. A lot of the feedback that was received said that disabilities appear not to be taken into consideration in regard to stalking. That is not good enough, and we need to see it change.

Another barrier that parents have told us about is that parental alienation is not fully understood among professionals. Parents believe that that places children at potential and actual risk of them being weaponised and used to stalk and obtain information about another parent. It has also been reported that various professionals — police officers, for example — have limited information and knowledge about it.

Agreed training is extremely important. It should be fit for purpose and delivered by experts in order to enable recognition of narcissistic personality disorder, coercive control, the various parenting styles, a person's ability to co-parent, parenting capacity; and, most importantly, to ensure that professionals can understand and capture the voice of the child and that any plan is put in place early to reduce any risk of stalking behaviour escalating or children being used to cause harm.

Clear resource pathways are needed to ensure safeguarding for all and, as you have heard from Andrea, for accessible information. Failure to identify and deliver adequate training and accessible information not only to the professionals and parents who are directly involved but to front-line public workers, mental health professionals, legal professionals and social workers will result only in increased domestic incidents, stalking and the escalation of serious child protection issues including stalking and domestic abuse and parental alienation.

A lack of expert training will result in a low number of prosecutions. We are aware of how high the risks of harm are and how they are significantly increased when a person leaves an abusive relationship. When a person decides to leave, extensive support needs to be in place, as they will be living in a perpetual state of constant fear and wondering what will happen next. The children are also in fear. What will they be asked to do next?

As I am sure that you will agree, stalking is increasing daily. The more information that people can access, the better awareness that there will be and the more possibility that we will have of bringing change. The legislation is extremely important. It is vital for all victims, including our children.

Our hope is to see the following included: online access to stalking information, a mandatory stalking register, the implementation of a stalking tagging system, early intervention models put out through front-line workers who understand

risk associated with leaving domestic abuse relationships that cover parental alienation strategies such as spying on and using a child to monitor the movements of a person. We would like to see video animations that include voice-overs to meet the needs of the most disabled. Accessible information is needed, as Andrea pointed out, in Braille and large print and with a voice-over.

I will now close with expressions and quotations that were described to me of a person's experience of stalking:

Thank you very much for listening. I pass back to you for any questions.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): Thank you for sharing that with us, particularly that personal testimony and what Andrea said to us and also, Donna-Maria, the stories that you have been able to relate to us. Those do have an impact, and they bring home to everybody exactly why it is so important that we get this legislation right.

I will ask one question and then bring in other members. If there were one thing that we could do to provide the best possible support to the victims of stalking, from your experience, what would that be?

Ms Logue: Training and education is significantly important, as is awareness and accessible information. A lot of the people who we work with said that the first point of contact in trying to come to terms with what had actually happened to them was the internet. They wanted clear understanding of what stalking behaviours are and links to resources to support them. That is also important for professionals, so that they can access that information to create assessment models in order to roll out intervention plans early. Having information and making it accessible is the priority, while ensuring that the information that is given out is treated as factual and that the services are supported to deliver on the ground to support those who come in. We do not want to see people being overwhelmed, so the services will also need to be supported to deliver.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): Thank you.

Ms Dillon: Thank you, Donna-Maria and Andrea. I agree, and I think that the whole Committee will agree, that the training and education piece is vital. That was the case with the Domestic Abuse and Civil Proceedings Bill, and we will probably have the same focus on that issue with this Bill. I give you that assurance, Donna-Maria.

I have a point about the proposed amendment. Chair, I think that we should first ask the Department whether that is specifically captured already or whether we need to see the content of that amendment in the Bill. If we think that that is something that we should do, the Committee should at least be looking at that. Donna-Maria, I reassure you that we will look at that. I do think that we need to ask the Department in the first instance.

On the issue of accessible formats of information, do you know, Donna-Maria, whether it is the case at the minute that that is taken into consideration for legislation? Are accessible formats already available through Departments? I thought that they were, but, if that is not the case, we certainly need to look at that.

Ms Logue: It was more that, when Andrea was seeking

that, she had to talk into various apps that had maybe been changed from one place to another. There were problems with the technology, first and foremost, before even being able to access the information. It has also been very clear that the Department needs its own open site specific to stalking, ensuring at the first point that it allows the person the option to talk. It should be set up so that it speaks and you can switch it off if you do not need it, so that the person who is blind is not trying to find ways to get into that information. It should automatically be on voice-over, with the option to change. A lot do not have that. Andrea, what is the name of the device that is set up on your phone that supports you?

Ms O'Hagan: VoiceOver. It is on my iPhone.

Ms Logue: VoiceOver is on iPhone, but it might not be on Android or all devices. It is about ensuring that there is a broad range of accessible information for the technology that people have these days.

Ms Dillon: Maybe we should ask the Department about how information is disseminated and what consultation it does with representatives of disability groups when it is setting up those. That is the very least that we should be doing. It is important. There is no way in which you could have an understanding of how difficult it can be to access some of the information unless you have that lived experience, as you talked about. There are a couple of things that we, as a Committee, should take forward in that regard. Thank you again, Donna-Maria and Andrea, for giving your personal testimony. We very much appreciate it. It was certainly helpful.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): Thank you, Linda. We will take note of that point about following that up.

Ms S Bradley: Thank you, Donna-Maria and Andrea. Becky is very disciplined; there was a bit of feedback. Your training has done well, Andrea.

I really commend you on the submission. It is a very distinct one that hones in on areas that really could add value to the Bill. I have spoken to you, Donna-Maria, about this offline, away from the Committee. It has given me food for thought about disability, vulnerability and stalkers. We talked about domestic abuse and coercive control. They are very good at framing around the person and their vulnerability, whatever that might look like. I can only imagine, Andrea, how frightening that must have been from the story that you relayed. We also need to explore with you more deeply the issue around children.

Accessibility came to my attention when I was doing a piece on another issue entirely. I did a bit of work in the past on visual impairment and disability. The world has moved on; so much is online. How we write online has changed. The use of emojis can be a real challenge for VoiceOver or a voice reader. I am not suggesting that the legislation will have emojis, but some of the information sites or forums that people use need to get into the general way of thinking that, if they are there to create an informative voice, they sometimes have to write in a different style online. That whole accessibility piece has to be explored more thoroughly and fully.

I take the point about why it is important, as you said, Donna-Maria, for this particular piece of legislation. Although you, rightly, revealed that to us today, every piece of legislation should be available to you, Andrea, in that way. There are unforeseen circumstances. You should have as much access to that as I have or anybody else has. We should follow up on that for not just the Justice Committee but all Committees and legislation processes. We should ask some very serious questions about the accessibility piece. I fully agree with what you said about the training and education piece being critical. How do you, Andrea, find accessing government information on a broader level? How do you rate it at the moment?

Ms O'Hagan: It is extremely difficult. I would go to a close friend or colleague. La Dolce Vita has been very helpful to me when it comes to accessing information, laws and legislation. There is no accessible format for people who are blind to enable them to do their own research.

Ms Logue: We held an informal feedback session with Andrea and a few other people with various disabilities to support us with our online presence. It is one of the things that came up. We received a number of messages from Andrea and other people about the fact that they cannot read graphics. Since then, we make a point of including writing above graphics, if they are used. Listening to Andrea and her experiences allowed us to adapt our services, particularly in the delivery of training and having inclusion. Inclusion came up as an issue in relation to training and making attendance accessible. At the beginning, in 2016, Andrea came in and sat, and we quickly realised that we had not included how to create a safety plan for someone who is blind. Part of managing that included the use of a guide dog

That helped us to adapt our services to support her better. She would be a great help for the Department as well. I am just putting that out there.

Children's experiences and voices should also be heard in the Bill. Too many children are being used to monitor the movements of parents and grandparents. That has to stop. We need

to look at the training around parental alienation strategies and to have that included. It has to be included to safeguard all. We are not just talking about men and women; we are talking about everyone. We have to look at the expert level of training so that everyone understands. We need to bring all the heads together and to create an assessment model with advocates in awareness on parental alienation, domestic abuse, sexual violence and disability. Let us come together. It is time that a huge assessment was done to incorporate all that — an assessment that can be put across our region and with which we are all happy. We need to get in early and share it, so that we can protect everyone from harm.

Ms S Bradley: I appreciate that. Andrea, I am glad to hear that you have that support network that can help you with access, but I do not think that is good enough. Perhaps the Bill is an opportunity for us to champion that need, because that need should be in every Bill and public information piece. If it is not there, we need to fix it. It is on all of us to do that scrutiny in all legislation and have accessibility to that legislation. That is as good as it is, but people do not know their rights or how to access that. Therefore, for many people, it may as well not exist. It was a very worthwhile submission. I am glad that you made it, and I appreciate you being here, Andrea, to put life into it. Thank you so much.

Mr Frew: I echo Sinéad's sentiments about the submission. It was very good, Donna-Maria. It is good to hear from you again. You made an important point about the use of a child, or any other family member, for that matter. We have been through those issues with the domestic violence piece, so the Committee is tuned into the use of a child, even when the child is not knowledgeable or aware that they are being used. It is very important that we include that in the Bill. It is not only a child or other family member; it could be an intermediary. It could be a third party — a total stranger — who is volunteering or employed by the perpetrator to get round some law. I would like to explore that more. Have you any ideas around it being a complete stranger or third party?

Ms Logue: We had someone access CCTV images, in their professional capacity, to monitor movements. We had a person who used their job as a taxi man to let the other person know when the children were in the home, when they were sleeping and whether they were attending school. We had extended family members being used to advise whether children had attended birthday parties.

Information that is sourced on the children is fed back and is used sometimes in the family courts. One example that came up with us was that of a child who was asked what they did at the weekend, how much money they spent and what activities they did. In court, a number of weeks later, the father was asked to disclose his finances, and it was put to him, "But you took the children here and you took them out there, so you should be able to increase the child maintenance". Those are just some of the ways that are used to try to manipulate and intimidate to obtain information. Yes, there is crossover with the Domestic Abuse and Civil Proceedings Act. However, stalking behaviour, which includes monitoring and spying, is very different, and those things need to be included.

The lived experience of somebody else just came into my mind. The person had a general conversation with somebody they met in the street. They asked them how they were doing and said, "Oh, I met such and such who is your ex-partner. He was saying that you are doing this, that you have a new partner and that you have moved on". The person was very shocked that somebody — a work colleague — knew all this information about her when she had not even told her immediate family that she had a new partner. That showed that somebody was monitoring and watching her and feeding back information.

Mr Frew: Thank you.

That is critical too, and, without your submission, we would not have thought of that, so thank you. Is there a balance to be struck between that and somebody who is trying to be helpful and to assist a person with a disability? Is that where the reasonableness test comes in? Is there a grey area there that we need to be aware of? I get it: it would be really horrible if someone were entering premises or a street and moving about furniture or street furniture to cause distress to a blind person, and we should, of course, capture that. There is a balance to be struck on reasonableness. Do we have to be careful about how we frame that clause, given that someone with a disability may need care, attention or assistance from other people?

Ms Logue: I agree 100%. We do not have all the answers now, but it is important to get a group of people around a table to see what they are already using. We need to listen again to the experiences to try to see where the gaps are and to build a framework around that. As I say, I do not have the full expertise. I am very open to inter-agency involvement in this, because we do not have everything in Andrea. It is not only about people who are blind.

There are other disabilities — being wheelchair-bound or hearing loss — and invisible disabilities. It might mean opening a can of worms to see what is needed. Yes, a reasonable person's test would break that down. Having practical guidance and support in place would really benefit those on the front line working in community and grassroots organisations.

Mr Frew: OK. Thank you very much.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): No other members have indicated. That just leaves me to thank you, Donna-Maria and Andrea, for joining us. Thank you for your work up in the north-west. Your insight has been very helpful. I want to put on record my appreciation for all that you do. Thank you.

Ms Logue: We appreciate your time and commitment to the Bill. Thank you very much. Bye.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): OK. Thank you.