Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): Members will find relevant papers in their pack. The pack includes a Clerk's memo setting out the Committee's position following the deliberations on each of the clauses and the proposed amendments at the meetings on 4, 11, 18 and 25 November 2021. The tabled pack contains the response from the Department of Justice, which is dated 29 November; the Committee's position on the amendments, which was emailed to members yesterday; and a paper setting out the issues for the Committee to consider before undertaking the formal clause-by-clause consideration.

The Department remains of the view that no further amendment to clause 17 is necessary in order to comply with the Committee's wishes regarding the content of the guidance. As previously agreed, the Committee will, therefore, bring forward its own amendment in that regard, which creates a new clause 16A. The Department also noted that the Committee is content to support its amendment in relation to data collection. The Department's response on the training amendment and the issues that the Committee needs to consider and decide upon are set out in the Clerk's memo in the tabled pack.

Are members still content to bring forward an amendment to the Department's amendment to include a requirement to report on the level of participation by personnel in training, in light of the views expressed by the Department? Or, do members wish to take account of the Department's views regarding the time frame for reporting and agree to bring forward the text of the alternative amendment that is outlined in the paper? Clerk, do you want to comment on that?

The Committee Clerk: In response to the Committee's suggested addition to report, the Department has indicated that that provision is already provided for in its reporting amendment at clause 17C. That states that the report must give:

The text of the proposed Committee amendment, which is probably more fulsome, is outlined in my memo. That is what the Committee was looking at.

The Department has also highlighted that, given the staged implementation time frames for the offence of stalking, and that stalking protection orders will require different training requirements and delivery schedules, the requirement of:

as presented in the reporting amendment, which is clause 17C, provides a more practical time frame than the one suggested in the Committee's initial amendment, which is that training should be reported:

The Department is saying that, in its view, the requirement to report on training is already covered in its proposed reporting amendment — though the text is not as fulsome as the Committee's proposed amendment — and that, given the nature of the training for stalking protection orders, as well as the stalking offence, it would be more practical to have a time frame of not less than two years and not more than three years for reporting. We have set out an alternative amendment for the Committee, if members still want to go ahead with the amendment. The alternative amendment includes that time frame so that you have that choice. It is a matter of whether the Committee thinks that it is fully covered already, as pointed out by the Department, or whether you want to bring forward your own amendment, and, if you do, whether you want to change the time frames in light of what the Department has said about the practicalities.

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): Are members content to bring forward our own amendment and one other slight change to concur with what the Department said about the time frame? It does not change anything. Our amendment gives us a more fulsome overview of what we want to be reported on. Are members content with the Committee's amendment?

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): Are members content with the time frame in our amendment, which relates to a change to "before the end of the period of 18 months"? That is now two years. Is that right?

The Committee Clerk: The alternative text is:

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): OK. Are we content?

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): That, in a sense, is us saying that we want our amendment but we accept part of the argument that the Department has made about the practicalities. It gives a slightly wider time frame. However, it will ensure that we still have the information. That is us trying to be fair and reasonable, but getting the information that the Committee wished to have.

That brings us to the next issue for consideration, which is the report on the operation of the Act. Apologies, members, but we have to go through these. You have the memo from the Clerk, which sets it out very clearly.

In response to the Committee's request for clarification regarding whether the breach offences are covered in the proposed amendment, the Department advised that clause 17C(1)(g), which provides for information about the level of compliance with stalking protection orders and interim stalking protection orders, will capture those who are in breach of an order.

In relation to the Committee's request that further detail regarding stalking protection orders and interim stalking protection orders is included in the text of the amendment, the Department has indicated that the level of detail regarding the number of orders that are varied, renewed or discharged can be facilitated within the current provision at clause 17C(1)(o) on any further information that the Department considers appropriate.

The Department is of the view that the further detail in subsections 4 and 5 of the Committee's amendment is not required.

Is the Committee content to bring forward an amendment to the Department's amendment to report on the operation of the Act to provide further detail on stalking protection orders and interim stalking protection orders, in light of the views expressed by the Department?

The text of the Committee amendment is set out in the memo from the Clerk. It is more fulsome because it gives a list, including the number of applications made for orders and the number of orders made, the orders discharged and so on. It is more complete than what the Department was considering. The Department was basically saying that it believes that it is enough to simply say:

Are members content to progress with our amendment?

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): Before undertaking the clause-by-clause consideration, the Committee will wish to reach a position on the amendments to provide for training and to report on the operation of the Act. We have done that, and now we can move to the clause-by-clause consideration of the Bill.

I advise members that, where amendments to a clause are proposed, I will put the Question on the amendment first. Where no amendments have been proposed and no issues have been highlighted, I will seek the Committee's agreement to group those particular clauses when putting the Question. The Question on each amendment that introduces a new clause to the Bill will be put at the relevant point. If members are happy, we will commence.

Ms S Bradley: We had some conversation about the descriptors, and there was an unfinished piece. I was waiting for something from the Department on "substantial distress". I know that a more refined or fulsome descriptor was used in the very similar Southern Bill. I still have some reservations about the clause and the descriptors, but I just want that to be noted at this stage.

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): Thank you for that, Sinéad.

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): I seek the agreement of members to group clauses 7 to 10 for the purpose of putting the Question. If any member has an issue with or objection to any of those clauses, the Question will be put on each clause. Are we content to group clauses 7, 8, 9 and 10?

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): Are we content to group clauses 14 to 16 for the purpose of putting the Question, unless any member has any objection to any of the clauses, in which case the Question will be put on each clause? Are we content to group them?

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): The Committee has agreed to table an amendment to insert a new clause 16A to provide that the Department must issue guidance about the effect of the Act and such other matters as the Department considers appropriate as to criminal law or procedure relating to stalking in Northern Ireland.

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): The Department has provided the text of its proposed amendment to provide that the guidance should be laid in the Assembly, as requested by the Committee.

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): That brings us to the new provision to provide for guidance on data collection. The Department has provided the text of its proposed amendment to provide guidance on data collection, as requested by the Committee.

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): There is a new provision to provide for mandatory training. The Department has provided the text of its proposed amendment to provide for mandatory training, as requested by the Committee. While the Committee has agreed to support the Department's amendment, it also agreed to table an amendment to it to provide for the requirement to report on the training before the end of the period of three years, beginning with the day on which sections 1 and 2 come into operation, and annually thereafter.

Is the Committee content with its amendment to the Minister's amendment to provide for a requirement to report on training?

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): Is the Committee content with the amendment proposed by the Minister to insert a new clause 17B to provide for mandatory training, subject to the amendment proposed by the Committee?

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): That brings us to the new provision to report on the operation of the Act. The Department has provided the text of its proposed amendment to report on the operation of the Act, as requested by the Committee. While the Committee has agreed to support the Department's amendment, it also agreed to table an amendment to provide for a more detailed obligation on data capture, and for reporting on stalking protection notices and interim stalking protection notices.

Is the Committee content with its amendment to the Minister's amendment to provide for a more detailed obligation on data capture, and for reporting on stalking protection notices and interim stalking protection notices?

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): Is the Committee content with the amendment proposed by the Minister to insert new clause 17C, to report on the operation of the Act, subject to the amendment proposed by the Committee?

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): The Department has provided the text of a proposed amendment to the wording of this clause, to reflect the new provisions to be inserted.

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): I advise members that, as this is the end of the clause-by-clause consideration of the Bill, the Committee must now consider the Bill's long title.

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): Members, thank you for your cooperation and support. The draft report on the Bill is being prepared and will be circulated for consideration and agreement at our meeting on 9 December.