Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): To be clear to members, we now have only Sinéad, Rachel, Jemma, Peter, Robin and me. Robin is out of the Room at the minute, but he is coming back. We need to keep quorate so that we can get through the formal clause-by-clause consideration.

Relevant papers are in members' packs, including the Clerk's memo setting out the Committee's position on each of the clauses and on the Department's amendments. The Committee sought further information and clarification from the Department on the request from the Information Commissioner's Office (ICO) that clause 8(5) be reworded to indicate more clearly that the list is not exhaustive. Officials consulted the Office of the Legislative Counsel (OLC) and confirmed that the list referred to must be construed as non-exhaustive. In the Department's view, the current wording in clause 8(5), "include in particular", leaves no doubt as to the nature of the list, and no amendment is necessary or desirable. It is content to make an addition to the relevant section of the explanatory and financial memorandum (EFM), however, to make it clear that the list is not exhaustive.

In light of the further clarification provided by the Department and its undertaking to make an addition to the EFM, are members content with clause 8 as drafted?

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): I remind members that the Committee also agreed to provide the Department with a summary of the evidence that it has received, highlighting the key points raised in relation to the Bill during oral evidence sessions along with its position on issues that were not discussed, for any further written comments that the Department wishes to provide on the issues covered. The Department's response to the summary of the evidence table was received yesterday and is in members' tabled packs. The Department advised that the points recorded in the summary table have also been addressed in recent correspondence to the Committee or by officials when giving oral evidence on the Bill.

The Committee briefly considered the five amendments to the Bill that the Department intends to table, apart from the amendment on the abuse of trust, which the Committee agreed to propose an amendment on. Members indicated that, while they are content to support the principle of each of the amendments, they have not had sufficient time to consider the text of the amendments in detail, seek the views of key stakeholders or carry out adequate scrutiny of any gaps or implications. Therefore, it was agreed that the Committee would note the departmental amendments. The amendments are a new clause that provides that consent to serious harm for sexual gratification is no defence; an amendment to extend existing revenge porn provisions to include a threat to disclose; an amendment to clause 15 to include the exclusion of the public from appeal hearings against conviction or sentence in serious sexual offence cases in the Court of Appeal; and an amendment to create a new offence of non-fatal strangulation or asphyxiation.

The Committee also agreed to provide the text of the amendments to the PSNI, the Public Prosecution Service (PPS), the Law Society and the Bar for views and comments. As the Committee agreed to note four departmental amendments, Questions will not be put on them or the associated amendments to clauses 7 and 21, schedule 3 and the long title during the Committee's formal clause-by-clause consideration of the Bill. However, the concerns and views expressed by members on the various Committee amendments will be reflected in the Committee report on the Bill.

The Committee will now undertake its formal clause-by-clause consideration of the Justice (Sexual Offences and Trafficking Victims) Bill and the relevant amendments. I will proceed through the clauses of the Bill in order and put the Question formally on each. I advise members that, where there are amendments to a clause, I will put the Question on the amendment first. Where no amendments have been proposed and no issues highlighted, I will seek the agreement of the Committee to group those clauses when putting the Question. The Question on each amendment that introduces a new clause to the Bill will be put at the relevant points.

I trust that that parable has been understood. I am trying to make it as concise as I can. I appreciate your help in the Committee working its way through it methodically.

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): I remind members that the Committee agreed to table two amendments to clause 1 to remove the banter defence.

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): The Committee agreed to table an amendment to provide for a new offence of cyber-flashing. Is the Committee content with the amendment to insert a new clause to provide for an offence of cyber-flashing?

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): I remind members that the Department has provided the text of an amendment to extend the scope of "abuse of position of trust" child offences to include certain activities carried out in sports and faith settings. Is the Committee content with the amendment proposed by the Minister to insert a new clause to extend the scope of "abuse of position of trust" child offences to include certain activities carried out in sports and faith settings?

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): The Committee agreed to propose an amendment to clause 3 to make it clear that payments may be something other than financial payments.

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): I turn to the new provision to remove the defence of reasonable chastisement. I remind members that the Committee agreed to table an amendment to remove the defence of reasonable chastisement.

Is the Committee content with the amendment to insert a new clause to remove the defence of reasonable chastisement?

Some Members: Aye.

Some Members: No.

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): Clerk, can I check whether, in those circumstances, we record that there are three members against the amendment and four in favour? I seek your advice.

The Committee Clerk: Yes. If the Question has been put and the Committee is not in agreement, we will record the Division on the Question.

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): Do I have to put it a vote?

The Committee Clerk: If people are saying yes and no to the Question, we need to record the outcome.

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): OK. I want to be sure that we have clarity.

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): Does the Committee recommend to the Assembly that the new clause is added to the Bill?

The Committee Clerk: I want to clarify that, when votes go through Committee, you need a simple majority. If the votes are equal, the motion falls. The Question that was put will fall.

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): Clerk, will you clarify that for us again so that everybody is aware?

The Committee Clerk: When a Question is put, it requires a simple majority to pass. If the votes are equal, the Question or the motion that has been put will fall. The Questions that are being put are about whether the Committee is content to table an amendment to remove the defence of reasonable chastisement; whether the Committee is content with the amendment to insert a new clause; and whether Committee recommends to the Assembly that the new clause is added to the Bill.

Earlier in the meeting, the Committee agreed that it would table the amendment. We will have to reflect that.

Ms S Bradley: Chair, I appreciate what is being said. I want to double-check whether the delegated vote has been considered at this point. I am not sure who is carrying the vote, to be fair.

The Committee Clerk: The vote was delegated. Emma Rogan delegated her vote to Sinéad Ennis, and Sinéad has left the meeting.

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): Thank you. I wanted to make sure that we are clear on that.

I seek agreement of the members to group—

Miss Woods: Sorry, I have raised my hand.

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): Sorry, Rachel. Go ahead.

Miss Woods: I want to clarify something. We agreed to table an amendment to abolish the defence of reasonable chastisement, but we are not putting that formally: is that right?

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): We have put it formally now, but, if I read what the Clerk says correctly, because some members were not in favour, if it goes to a vote, as it did, it has to be carried by a majority. There were three members in favour and three members against. If there is no majority, it falls and does not become a recommendation of the Committee. Is that an accurate reflection of the procedure?

The Committee Clerk: Yes. In closed session, the Committee discussed all the amendments and agreed the final text, which was circulated in what Stephanie had provided.

We are now putting the formal Questions. Some members who were here earlier are not here now, so we are sitting with six members. Three have voted for the amendment and three against it. A majority is needed to carry a Committee motion or proposal. If there are equal votes, it falls.

Miss Woods: OK, so is the Committee no longer bringing forward an amendment to the Bill on the defence of reasonable chastisement/equal protection?

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): That is a correct interpretation.

The Committee Clerk: When putting the formal Questions, that is the result.

Miss Woods: Thank you. I just wanted to clarify that.

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): I appreciate that. Thank you.

We will move to the agreement of members to group clauses 4 to 7, which cover anonymity of victims, for the purpose of putting the Question. If any member has any issues or objections to any of the clauses, the Question should be put on each individual clause.

Mr Weir: Apologies, Chair, I have to go.

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): OK. Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): I seek the agreement of members to group clauses 8 to 14, which cover anonymity of suspects, for the purposes of putting the Question. If any member has any issues or objections to any of those clauses, the Question should be put on each individual clause.

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): Earlier in the meeting, members agreed that they had not had time to properly consider the text of the Minister's proposed amendment to clause 15 and carry out adequate scrutiny regarding any gaps or implications. The Committee therefore agreed to note the amendment.

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): The Committee has agreed to bring forward an amendment to insert a new clause to place a duty on the Department to provide guidance on Part 1 of the Bill, including training and data collection.

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): The Committee has agreed to bring forward two amendments to clause 16 to extend the support for victims of trafficking and to amend and extend the statutory defence on exploitation to include class A drugs.

Is the Committee content with the amendments to extend support for victims of trafficking beyond 45 days to cover from presentation stage to national referral mechanism (NRM) decision based on need, to provide support post-positive NRM decision for 12 months or less if not required and to extend the statutory defence on exploitation to include class A drugs?

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): The Committee agreed to bring forward an amendment to place a duty on the Department of Justice to bring forward slavery and trafficking risk orders.

Is the Committee content with the amendment to insert a new clause to place a duty on the Department of Justice to bring forward protective measures for victims of slavery and trafficking?

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): I seek the agreement of members to group clauses 18 and 19, which cover qualifying offences for sexual offences prevention orders and time limit for making violent offence prevention orders, for the purposes of putting the Question. If any member has any issues or objection to any of the clauses, I will put the Question on each individual clause.

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): I seek the agreement of members to group clauses 20 to 22, which cover ancillary regulations, commencement and short title, for the purposes of putting the Question. If any member has any issues or objection to any of the clauses, I will put the Question on each individual clause.

The Chairperson (Mr Storey): Members, I thank you for your cooperation and inform you that the draft report on the Bill is being prepared for consideration and agreement at our meeting on 27 January. Thank you for your help in relation to this matter.