Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Dr Archibald): I welcome Glyn Roberts, chief executive of Retail NI, and Joel Neill, operations director at Hospitality Ulster. I will hand over to you to make an opening statement, and then I will open the meeting up to members for questions.

Mr Joel Neill (Hospitality Ulster): I will begin with a bit of background, although I am sure that I do not need to tell you too much about Hospitality Ulster; we have probably engaged extensively with everyone in the room. Formed in 1872, Hospitality Ulster is the representative body for pubs, bars, restaurants, accommodation providers and visitor attractions in Northern Ireland. We provide representation at every level of government and local authorities, supporting the needs of the industry and driving hospitality's development as a career of choice. In fact, in the past week, alongside Minister Lyons, we published the hospitality employers charter, which demonstrates that our businesses are committed to staff training and development as the sector begins the long process of rebuilding post pandemic. We are inviting our membership to sign the charter and commit to it.

I will not go too deeply into the charter, but, essentially, it covers three main areas. The first of those is employment rights:

The second area is staff welfare, which covers things like breaks, employee well-being schemes, work-life balance, and equality, dignity and respect in the workplace. The third area is development and reward:

The charter is now in place, and we are inviting signatories from the membership. We very much hope that it will get widespread support. I will be happy to share a copy of the charter with the Committee. Put simply, we want to create careers in hospitality. We want to put in place a means of fast-tracking talent into senior positions. As I mentioned, we are also on the verge of releasing a brand new employee welfare package to the membership for the coming year.

I turn to the Bill. There is a place for flexible working in our industry as long as it is not abused. Hospitality Ulster supports the building of better mechanisms to ensure that flexible working is not abused. The Bill's explanatory and financial memorandum states that zero-hour contracts:

To put it simply, we could not agree more. The key word here is "flexibility", and that is for the employee and the employer. From an employee's point of view, workers may be looking for short-term, part-time work that suits their lifestyle. They may be seeking to supplement their income. They may be students who are home only for Christmas or holidays. The zero-hour rota model suits a section of the workforce at certain stages of their life. People actively seek out the hospitality industry for that flexibility. Some look for as little as one day's work per week to supplement their income. The benefit of that type of contract in hospitality is the ability to choose the hours that suit you as an employee.

To flip the coin to the employer, think about a small independent pub — the traditional one-man band, of which there are many around Northern Ireland. That employer may need some help with a birthday party or an occasional function. If their ability to retain zero-hour workers is removed entirely, they will have to look at acquiring staff through an agency. That will not only cost the business more in an era when margins are being squeezed as thin as they have ever been and costs are higher than they have ever been but remove the relationship between the employer and the employee. Those relationships often lead to an employer spotting talent, promoting the employee and offering them a full-time job, if that suits the employee as they move through their career. I stress again that it is not for everyone, but it is for some. If it is a short-term solution that benefits the employer and employee — again, Hospitality Ulster is totally against it being abused — it still very much has its place in the modern industry.

The hospitality industry continues to change, especially after the past two years. A lot of the things that we were up against pre pandemic have been magnified and put on fast forward. The industry is increasingly reliant on functions and occasions. It is now seasonal. For many, it is not a seven-days-per-week job. For others, it is a career of choice and a field in which they can excel. We very much want to be there to help them excel, because that benefits everyone. It is important to recognise their needs and to support both ways of working.

I hope that I did not go on too long there, Chair and members. I am happy to take questions or expand on that.

The Chairperson (Dr Archibald): Thanks for that, Joel. Glyn, I will hand over to you, and then we will bring members in for questions to you both.

Mr Glyn Roberts (Retail NI): Thank you for the opportunity, Chair. Given the timescale that your Committee has set, it was difficult for us to do an extensive, deep dive, so the comments that we can make will be fairly broad. Nevertheless, I hope that we can make some important contributions.

I had a good chat with Jemma yesterday about her private Member's Bill. I understand that it is unlikely to go through in this mandate and that it will be revisited in the next mandate. I also talked to our colleagues in the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers (USDAW), the shopworkers' union, with whom we have an excellent relationship. We work together on a range of initiatives and issues from Sunday training to the dreadful verbal and physical abuse that retail staff suffered at the height of the pandemic.

It is important to point out that we are the first business group to launch a comprehensive well-being plan for our members and their staff. Chair, I thank you for your time at the launch in December. We take workers' rights and looking after retail staff very seriously. There was a commitment in 'New Decade, New Approach' (NDNA) to ban zero-hours contracts. To put it in further context, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) survey in 2019 showed that Northern Ireland had, by some margin, the lowest percentage of zero-hours contract workers in the UK: 1·3% of workers across the whole economy.

In talking to some of our members — again, there is a bit of a health warning on this, because we did not have time to do anything too extensive on it — we have come across surveys that show that 20% of staff would like to work more hours and 19% would like to work fewer. Banded-hours working, as in the private Member's Bill, is, more or less, normal practice for a lot of our members, whether it be 10 or 16 hours for part-time staff. I have not come across one member — I stand to be corrected on this — who uses zero-hours contracts. They have become, to some degree, a bit of an anachronism in the retail sector. The zero-hours contract was probably on the way out before the pandemic, and, as we begin to put that in the rear-view mirror, it has, more or less, had its day.

Joel mentioned flexibility for workers and employers. Look, in particular, at the situations that small independent retailers have found themselves in throughout the pandemic, when their staff either tested positive or had kids who were off school or whose schools were closed. Let us not forget that the majority of our members are essential retailers who have been open throughout the past two years. They had huge challenges with childcare and other issues, not least their own health, when the schools were closed. When we begin to look at the long list of heroes of the pandemic, we will see that it includes our retail staff, who put their own health at risk to ensure that we all had food and other important products. I think particularly of small, rurally based independent retailers who went the extra mile for many vulnerable and older people.

Looking forward — this is very much the basis of the Bill — it is about ensuring that we find a way to lock in the flexibility that works best for employers and staff. Many part-time staff are students, single parents or people who have caring responsibilities. In smaller businesses and independent retailers, where staff work directly with the boss — an owner-manager, so to speak — the dynamic, at times, is that there is flexibility, because there is a much greater feeling of ownership of and attachment to a smaller independent retailer than would probably be seen in, for example, a large supermarket. We have seen a lot of that flexibility and good practice throughout the pandemic.

We have always believed that the social partnership approach is the right one. As I said, we have a good relationship with USDAW. When I talked to USDAW, it confirmed our view that zero-hour contracts have more or less gone from the retail sector, although we cannot wholly stand over that. One of the points that you may want to look at is that many retail staff on a minimum-hour contract are working way beyond 10 or 16 hours because of the number of them who have had to isolate. That was very much the case in late December and well into January, and it is still an issue. One of the things is about how we ensure that, if staff members go way beyond their 16 hours, that is reflected in their terms and conditions by things such as sick leave.

There is a bit of work to do. It is worth pointing out that, unless I am much mistaken, the Assembly is the only devolved Administration that has power over employment law. It might be useful in the next Assembly term and the next Programme for Government to look at how we provide and lock in the flexibility that works for not only the small independent retailers and small businesses of Northern Ireland but their staff. Let us be clear: given the labour shortages, really good retail staff are, while not quite like hens' teeth, worth their weight in gold. Many of our members want to hold on to those staff and will do what is necessary to do so.

The Bill raises broader issues of employment law and working conditions. I hope that, when it comes back, it will be updated to reflect the reality of what we all went through during the pandemic and the changed world in which we find ourselves in 2022. It is a fundamentally different economy, and it will be a different high street and retail sector. I hope that, when we have a new Administration — sooner rather than later, after the election — we begin to look at all of those issues. Thank you, Chair.

The Chairperson (Dr Archibald): Thanks for that. That was really helpful evidence from both of you on the Bill and the experience of both sectors.

As we understand it, the Bill would require employers to offer an employee a banded-hour contract after a period of three months' service but there is no obligation on a worker to accept that. Therefore, to some extent, the flexibility that we are talking about is provided for. Do you have any view on that aspect?

Mr Roberts: Most part-time workers have that baseline of 10 or maybe 16 hours. Many of them want a lot less than that. Our sector has moved on from zero-hour contracts. It is about how we support and get flexibility and adaptability for part-time workers who need it. Although the Bill makes some good points, banded-hours contracts are now pretty much standard practice, particularly amongst our members. For many part-time workers, the big challenge is not working too few hours but working too many hours, because the pressures that are on independent retailers mean that they want them to work more hours. Given where we are with the cost-of-living crisis, some workers and part-time workers very much want to do more hours. Our members will always try to facilitate that, but we have to balance it with the fact that many part-time workers have caring responsibilities, are single parents or are studying.

It is all about how we can get a flexible approach that works for workers and businesses. Often, that practice will have already begun, and independent retailers will have sat down to talk to their staff members and vice versa about how they can work it out. Throughout the pandemic, workers and our members have stretched themselves to make it work.

Mr Neill: The timescales meant that we were unable to survey the industry and gather those views. However, the concern would be for smaller, independent pubs, for example. People often think of the hospitality industry as the bigger outlets in Belfast — the multi-outlet operators — but the vast majority of our industry is made up of those small community hubs. I would like to speak to our membership about it and gauge their views. However, as the industry is now seasonal and there are no guaranteed levels of work, as functions or events may not happen, there would probably be a concern about having staff on the books with banded-hours contracts and having no real work for them to do.

This is set against the fact that our businesses are struggling financially and are trying to recover from being essentially decimated for a couple of years. Again, it is about being able to offer flexibility to employers, as well as employees, so that they do not have to put staff on for a set number of hours per week when, possibly, absolutely nothing is going on. That would obviously be really bad for employers' costs. It probably needs to be explored further. We would need to consult the industry and that specific business type on it.

The Chairperson (Dr Archibald): OK. That is helpful. There are exceptions in the Bill. We can come look at that in more detail; I know that it was raised at Second Stage as well.

Another thing that the Bill would do is ban exclusivity clauses. Can you give us your views on the prevalence of those clauses in your sectors? Are they still widely used, or are they used less so?

Mr Neill: To be honest, I do not think that exclusivity clauses are widespread. Again, unfortunately, I do not have the statistics. I would be interested to find out how many zero-hours workers in hospitality — again, they make up a fraction of the hospitality workforce — have exclusivity clauses. I do not see them as particularly helpful to workers or employees. The groundwork for the zero-hours contract's place is very much based on the stage of an employee's life and what they are looking for by way of supplementary income. My friends and those whom I know in the industry who are on zero-hours contracts often have or are setting up a business or work elsewhere. Therefore, I do not see exclusivity clauses as particularly helpful to employees or a particularly great thing to impose on them, especially at the moment when the workforce is so decimated and there are not the people there to do the work. We have never had a massive issue with their use, but, again, I would be interested in speaking to the industry and looking for further information about the prevalence of exclusivity clauses.

Mr Roberts: I refer to my last point. Given the low level of zero-hours contracts among our membership, the exclusivity thing does not apply. Some of the workers have enough challenges doing one part-time job, never mind if they were to have a multitude of others. It really does not apply.

The Chairperson (Dr Archibald): OK, thank you.

Mr Nesbitt: Thank you very much, Glyn and Joel. I have two questions, which are for both of you. Perhaps Joel could come in first on the first one, and Glyn can come in first on the second.

My first question is this: when and how did you become aware of the consultation on the Bill?

Mr Neill: That is a fairly easy one for me to answer. I am deputising today for Colin Neill, who sends his apologies, as he is on business elsewhere. It reached me towards the end of last week. I have not had a great deal of discussion with Hospitality Ulster staff or members, so it has been fairly short-term, to be honest.

Mr Roberts: Mike, like Joel, I first became aware of it when your very efficient staff contacted us. Given the timescale and everything else that we have on, it was a bit of a challenge. I was aware, however, that the private Member's Bill had been doing the rounds. Our sector has moved on, and zero-hours contracts have become less of an issue. I know that Jemma has worked hard on the consultation for the private Member's Bill, but the first detailed comment that I have made about it is in talking to your good selves this morning.

Mr Nesbitt: That is helpful; thank you.

My second question is about gender bias. Does a zero-hours contract regime impact more on men or on women?

Mr Roberts: It is hard to say because, as I said, zero-hours contracts are less of an issue for our members. Many people, male and female, have increasing caring responsibilities. It is not right to stereotype part-time retail workers as being majority female. A growing number of older male retirees want to work part-time to keep active. Our workforce — part-time and full-time — is diverse. Whether you are male or female, there are great opportunities for you to work part-time in the retail sector. Our members will always try to be flexible, no matter whether you are a single mum, a single dad, someone with caring responsibilities or a student. The gender profile of our members' staff is very diverse.

Mr Neill: I agree with Glyn. I wish that I had a breakdown of the number of zero-hours contracts in the industry and the make-up of those in terms of gender diversity. Unfortunately, I do not have that data to hand, but I agree with Glyn that it is more that they suit a lifestyle or a specific stage in life rather than a specific gender. Single parenting is not done just by mothers. There are many circumstances in which someone will actively seek work in hospitality as an opportunity to supplement their income or to have one or two extra days of work per week. Unfortunately, I do not have any data to highlight that or to explore it further, sorry.

Mr Nesbitt: Thank you.

Mr Weir: Thank you for your presentation, gentlemen. I found it useful. I appreciate that we are operating with the caveat that, due to the time frames and the fact that there was no direct engagement at the consultation stage, while you are giving your expert opinion, it is a bit of a snapshot of your sector, rather than an opinion that you have been able to draw down directly. As you indicated, the Bill will not make it on to the statute book. We must look at and drill down on the evidence. In the next mandate, there will be a Bill to deal with the issue that has a longer time frame. We must get it correct.

I have a few questions. Glyn mentioned the unique situation in employment law. Can the issue of zero-hours contracts be dealt with discretely, or should it form part of a wider review of employment law? Will you give me your thoughts on that?

Mr Roberts: Thank you for your question, Peter. We have always taken the view that any review of employment law needs to be family-friendly, worker-friendly and business-friendly. Some 98% of business in Northern Ireland is small. At times, when government looks at employment law, it does so through the prism of big business rather than of how it impacts on smaller business. It is important that, whatever review we have in the next mandate, it looks through the prism of small business and independent retailers. That is where our economy is and will be for the foreseeable future. Whatever review of employment law we have, it must work for the worker and the business owner.

A lot of the dialogue that we have with USDAW and so on comes not through government but through the relationships that we have built up and the campaigns that we have worked on together. We proactively wanted to address the issues facing members' staff when we published our comprehensive well-being plan in December 2021. We take the issue seriously.

It will be interesting to see what is in the next Programme for Government. A lot of this will probably be looked at again in that. The world has moved on since January 2019, not least in the difficulties for workers and independent retailers. In 2022, we have a perfect storm. There are cost issues facing business, from rising energy costs to increases in National Insurance. As well as that, many of the businesses that have not paid rates in the last two years will start to pay rates again. We have cost-of-living issues and, of course, an inflation problem. Whatever is looked at has to ensure that we can lock in economic growth, start our economy growing again and bounce back from the pandemic. We must also ensure that the rights of workers and our employees are respected.

We have not been shy in shouting out about the huge contribution that our retail staff have made during the pandemic. Look at the figures that USDAW produced: retail staff suffered treble the amount of verbal and physical abuse when they reminded customers of their legal responsibilities, whether on face coverings, social distancing or anything else. We owe our retail staff a huge amount of gratitude. Our members will always want to go the extra mile to look after and keep those staff. We say in our well-being plan that a happy and contented workforce is absolutely key to boosting Northern Ireland's low levels of productivity.

We are clear that, while you must have an economic and physical recovery, it has to go alongside the well-being recovery. A lot of the issues that are touched on in the private Member's Bill relate directly to the bigger picture, and a lot of those points are touched on in our well-being plan.

Mr Weir: I suspect that I will speak for everyone on the Committee in thanking retail and hospitality workers for their work throughout the pandemic. It is important to do that.

In many ways, as workers, they have probably been more affected by restrictions than the vast majority of people in society. They have also been very much on the front line with enforcement and sometimes had to bear the brunt of resentment, frustration or, at times, utterly unacceptable behaviour from a minority of customers.

Summing up the evidence from both of you in a phrase is "a need to retain flexibility but ensure that abuse does not happen". That seemed to be the common theme from you both. I want to tease out, particularly with Joel, the solution offered by the Bill around reaching a point where guaranteed banded hours come into effect and having a trigger point for that. Maybe there is a difference in impact, but, from the perspective of retail, Glyn said that zero-hours contracts are rare nowadays in retail and that the standard practice is to move towards banded hours. Joel, there may or may not be more complexities for hospitality, but do you think that the banded hours solution is the route to go down and, as much as possible, resolves the issue of flexibility but avoiding abuse? You highlighted that, perhaps, there is a difference between how you would treat longer-term employees and the casual employees, such as a student being back at Christmas and maybe doing a couple of weeks' work. Depending on your view of the banded hours as a route, do you think that the three-month period that the Bill highlights as being the trigger point is an appropriate time frame?

Mr Neill: Thank you, Peter. You are right that my industry and Glyn's industry probably sing off the same hymn sheet for the vast majority of things. I agree with what Glyn said about a review of employment procedures. We are probably the same in that we need to account for the vulnerabilities in both industries around businesses in the current climate. The difference between retail and hospitality is the more seasonal nature of hospitality and the more unpredictable element of when that trade comes. Obviously, Christmas is when the hospitality industry makes probably the vast majority of its turnover or profit for the year. It is not always guaranteed business in the same way as a retail store opens and can predict the daily flow of customers.

As hospitality comes out of the pandemic, we see it being more occasional, based on events and functions and, indeed, more seasonal. The concern is that smaller outlets have staff on the books and may not have that flexibility. They may be in a position where they contractually must offer a team of employees a set number of hours but have absolutely no guarantee that the work will be there. Glyn might argue with me here and should feel free to do so. You can probably predict the footfall and the customer flow for retail in a way that you cannot for hospitality, certainly not at the moment, anyway.

That business vulnerability is there not only at the moment — I understand that the Bill is for the long term — but, as we continue to move and evolve post pandemic, it would probably be an area of concern for those smaller businesses. I apologise for speaking without having consulted the members directly on it, but it would probably be an area of concern for smaller businesses that are tied without the option of zero-hours workers for functions and so on. Again, I stress the caveat that it cannot be abused, and we are keen to work with the Committee to explore ways in which abuse can be prevented.

Mr Weir: I appreciate the concerns that you have raised about banded hours and your caveats, but, if that route is taken, is three months the appropriate time for that to kick in?

Mr Neill: Again, apologies, we probably need to look at the specifics. The issue is more about the model of bringing someone in and being compelled to offer a certain set of hours than the actual time frame that needs to pass before that offer is made. However, we can explore that with the membership and ask for their opinions.

Mr Weir: There can be a bit of differentiation between hospitality and retail. Hopefully, we are moving towards a post-pandemic situation, but, unfortunately, over the last two years, sometimes, when we have seen light at the end of the tunnel, the pandemic has moved in the opposite direction. Obviously, there is natural volatility for hospitality because it is more seasonally driven than retail, but, given that hospitality has often been the first port of call for restrictions and that restrictions have tended to be geared, ultimately, towards hospitality, that has created a level of nervousness.

Finally, the power in the Bill to make further regulations puts a potential onus on the Department to give due regard to best international practice — whatever that is discerned to be — and the views of trade unions and groups connected to zero-hours contractors. My question may be a little bit leading, but, when we look at that element, should the views of organisations such as yours have to be taken into account by the Department under any form of the legislation? What is your general reaction to that part of the clause?

Mr Roberts: Without going into too much detail on the Bill, it is fair to say that it raises a much broader issue about how we support employees and workers and ensure that there is flexibility for businesses. It taps into a much wider issue that, I suspect, may well be revisited in the next Programme for Government. As we approach the Assembly election, many of your party manifestos may look at that issue and bring forward ideas that are based on international good practice. The well-being agenda is not just something that business needs to talk about; it needs to act on it. That is why we wanted a template that can be adapted to any of our members.

We go back to the fact that having happy, contented, looked-after staff whose well-being is front and centre is key to the future improvement of the productivity of the Northern Ireland economy. Traditionally, we have some of the lowest productivity levels in the UK. Getting to a point where we have happy, contented, well-looked-after staff will be important not just to the viability of our members' stores but to the economy as a whole. The recovery from the pandemic has two elements to it: economic and well-being. The two elements are so interlinked. We cannot do one without the other.

Mr Weir: I am slightly labouring the point, and, again, I appreciate that it can be seen as a slightly leading question. Everyone will accept that it is right that trade unions are at the heart of the conversation about the details of the regulations. Should business organisations also be at the heart of that conversation?

Mr Roberts: Absolutely. The concept of social dialogue is good. We have good relationships not only with USDAW but with the Northern Ireland Committee, Irish Congress of Trade Unions (NIC-ICTU). We have regular conversations. As you have seen, businesses, trade unions and, indeed, the voluntary sector have come together, whether that was on some of the challenges around the protocol or the co-design of some responses to the pandemic. I also highlight the role of trade unions, businesses and the voluntary sector in working with the Executive on the current discussions on the high street task force. That is a really good example of civic society coming together and co-designing solutions with the Executive. That is a good model.

I will go further than that. We have always said that the process by which the Executive arrive at the Programme for Government is convoluted and difficult. Businesses, trade unions and the voluntary sector need to be seen not just as consultees but as partners in the Programme for Government, because there are clearly KPIs in any Programme for Government that our members need to do. Likewise, it is about co-designing many of the solutions. We look ahead to the next Assembly term. Whether it is employment law or anything else, Northern Ireland civic society is, in many respects, the envy of anywhere else in these islands, because it has been solution-based, we have worked together well, and there is not the same confrontational approach between trade unions and businesses that you see in other parts of this island or the UK. That is a good thing that we need to build on, and we need to make sure that the voice of civic society is seen not just as a tick box or as a consultee but as a partner in co-designing the next Programme for Government. It is about navigating the huge challenges that we face in 2022 and 2023 and making sure that we lock in that post-pandemic recovery and build something different from what we had in January 2019. It is not about going back to where we were in January 2019. I will not even use the phrase "Building back better". It is about doing something fundamentally different and, above all else, better than what we had before.

Mr Neill: I will come in after Glyn. That is a fairly astute answer, on which we broadly agree. I cannot sit here this morning and talk about the hospitality employers charter, an employee welfare package and the critical need for the industry to look after its employees without acknowledging that it is important that the views of the trade unions are taken on board. There also needs to be a collaborative approach that explores the viability of any Bill or review for the businesses themselves. We are, unfortunately, in what will be an extended period of extreme volatility, and there are businesses that, unfortunately, will probably not be viable in the next year or two, when grants go away and rates are back to full whack. It is important that we engage with the businesses and business groups in the same way as we engage with trade unions to ensure that any development is viable at the business end.

Mr Weir: Thank you.

Mr K Buchanan: Thank you, Joel and Glyn. The background information states:

What number of workers does that equate to? I ask the same question of Joel. How many full-time or part-time workers does that equate to? What range of people are in that membership?

Mr Roberts: We are not far off the 2,000 mark now, Keith. We have

very steadily. It is really hard to say, because our membership takes in not only those in the retail sector but wholesalers, retailers and suppliers to the sector. We have some big players and some very small players in that. It is hard to put an exact figure on the contribution to the overall Northern Ireland economy and on the staff. I would certainly put the overall economic contribution in billions. There are certainly tens of thousands of staff. It is hard to put a figure on it, particularly when the vast majority of members are small, independent, family-owned retailers. Their staff levels vary. It is a significant section of the Northern Ireland economy, and it makes a huge contribution. We have independent retailers that are the envy of other parts of this island and the rest of the UK, and do you know what? That is a good thing. Those independent retailers, whether they run convenience stores, butchers or pharmacies, were there when people needed them at the height of lockdown, and we owe those businesses a huge debt, because they were as much a service and lifeline for many older and vulnerable people as GPs or any of the other social services during the pandemic. We need to very much build on that. To answer your question, our collective membership is a huge chunk of the Northern Ireland economy.

Mr Neill: I will follow on again. Thank you for the question. These are pre-pandemic figures, and we are still in that period of flux as we wait to see the shape in which the industry builds back post pandemic. Before March 2020, the hospitality sector sustained over 60,000 jobs across Northern Ireland, which equates to just over one in 20 jobs in NI being in the hospitality sector. Of those, 45,000 were directly in food and drink, and the sector contributed over £1·1 billion to the Northern Ireland economy annually.

Mr K Buchanan: Joel and Glyn, I am not saying that the Bill is not needed. Are you saying that the Bill is not needed?

Mr Roberts: First, the market and the economy have moved on. I can speak only for my sector. As a practice, zero-hours contracts were very much in decline, and the ONS figures prove that. If you look at the broader economy, you will see that it was very much a practice that was in decline pre pandemic. Look at the 2019 figures: only 1·3% of workers across the whole economy had zero-hours contracts, and I think that that translated into about 11,000 workers in 2019. I would say that the figure is probably even lower now.

Zero-hours contracts are not a big issue in retail. That is not to say that it is not an issue for other sectors, but the world has moved on, and perhaps, when that issue and the Bill are revisited — I had a good chat with Jemma about that — it might need to be adapted to where we will be, because the economy is rapidly changing. This is not the same economy as we had in January 2019. It is certainly not the same retail sector or the same high streets as we had in 2019. If the Bill is revisited, it might be added to, or, for instance, the new Programme for Government might want to take the issues on in a broader context. The Bill will not be passed during this Assembly term. It might well be that any new Programme for Government takes on elements of the Bill, or that may not be needed. Who knows? We have a long way to go between now and then. We are fairly relaxed about what is in the Bill, but this will perhaps be a broader issue, and all the points that I, Joel and members have made today point to looking at a wider strategy after the next election.

Mr Neill: Yes. Long before the pandemic was thrust upon us, that journey of professionalisation in the hospitality industry had been ongoing for some time, including the building of apprenticeship frameworks and positioning it as a career of choice from school age up and showing that there are pathways to have a successful career in hospitality. I will not claim that we are all 100% perfect — who is? There will be premises that, in the past, have not necessarily treated staff right, but the last two years have shone a light on the critical need to treat your people well, to look after your staff and to make sure that they have a good standard of living and a good work-life balance. The projects that Hospitality Ulster is undertaking, such as the employers charter and the employee welfare scheme, seek to back that up.

I agree with Glyn: we are still in a period of flux. We will, over the next year or two, look to see what shape the industry is in and what the workforce looks like. There is a need to care for your employees and to provide what they need, be that a career pathway, if that is what they are looking for, or a stopgap solution to supplement income. It is more important than ever — it always has been extremely important — that our businesses take care of their people. That will continue in earnest. Without some meaningful consultation with the industry and those businesses, I am not sure that I can say that the Bill is not needed, but I can say that that process has been ongoing for a long time and will continue in earnest because of the economic situation that we find ourselves in.

Mr K Buchanan: I have one final quick question, and I presume that there will be a quick answer. Have you reached out to your membership to get their feedback? Obviously, you will then feed back to us. Have you started that process?

Mr Roberts: Given that we were given only just over a week, it would be impossible for us to do that. We are engaging on a range of things from the high street task force through to a huge number of issues around the Northern Ireland protocol. It would be impossible for us to do something as detailed as that. We talked to as many members as we could in that context. I think that the feedback shows that zero-hours contracts, for many of our members, are not there any more. I am not saying that it is not an important issue for other sectors, but it is considerably less of an issue for our members. We do not represent the large supermarkets, so I cannot really give a view of what their employment practices are. From talking to some of our small, medium and large members, I know that they do not have zero-hours contracts. Staff do not have banded hours, but they have 10- or 16-hour contracts. They have clear contracts of what is required, with a minimum level of hours that is often exceeded because of pressures such as the dreaded flow test and getting two red lines. That puts the fear of God into not just the people who test positive but many small independent retailers who have, perhaps, four or five staff and one or two of them are off at short notice because they have to isolate. It is a challenge.

Mr Neill: The short answer to the member's question is, unfortunately, no, for the reasons that Glyn outlined. However, Hospitality Ulster's position on any topic is formed by engaging with the industry, our membership and our board. Our board is made up of owners of businesses of all shapes and sizes from all over the Province. Any position that we form very much comes from that engagement, so it would be important to do that before we adopt a hard line on the issue.

Mr K Buchanan: OK. Thanks, gentlemen.

Mr Dickson: From listening to both of you this morning, the good news story is that, in both industries that were being described, you do not believe that there is any level of concern about zero-hours contracts. Glyn, in particular, indicated that he does not think that there are many of them in existence in the membership organisation that he represents. That is a useful takeaway from our conversation today. Research and further examination will show that. Joel indicated that he will go back to his member organisation to work out the extent of zero hours and the impact of the Bill.

In the broader context, the Minister has indicated to us that, although we are reaching the end of the mandate, a future Economy Minister will want to bring forward more comprehensive and wide-ranging employment relations legislation that may well incorporate this issue and many others that have been outstanding for some time in Northern Ireland. Is that approach better, rather than dealing with small, niche — I do not use that word critically — areas such as zero-hours contracts? Should we not look at a slightly bigger picture and draw all of that type of legislation into one encompassing Bill?

Mr Roberts: That is a fair point, Stewart. It should not be a standard consultation that the Committees then look at; it has to be about co-design and ensuring that, yes, we have family-friendly employment law that looks after employees, respects them and gives them good conditions. The fact is that we are a small-business economy, so, whatever changes to employment law we have — there have been huge changes — they have to be balanced and to work for the employee and the small business sector, which makes up the vast majority of the economy in Northern Ireland.

It might well be that that is reviewed. Of course, often, much employment law is introduced by consent mechanisms in parallel with Westminster-based legislation that is coming through. We also have the situation where, obviously, many European directives on employment law do not apply in the same way as they did before, now that we are out of the EU. It might well be that that is looked at again. We are happy to have ongoing dialogue with the Minister about what the priorities are, provided that we get a balanced approach that works for the employee and for the employer.

Mr Neill: Stewart, there is not really much that I can add to that. Again, that was a fairly comprehensive answer from Glyn. Hospitality Ulster is certainly keen to work collaboratively to look at a wider review of employment practices if something were brought forward. Obviously, the labour market has growing challenges for our industry. That has been made a lot worse by the inability to access EU labour. Businesses in the hospitality industry now have to compete in a limited labour market. It is critical for our industry to demonstrate opportunities and benefits in order to make hospitality a career of choice and to offer the flexibility for which people actively seek out our industry. It is important to do that in a collaborative manner that ensures that there is no abuse of that and that it is offered without any abuse. It is certainly not something that we would object to.

Mr Dickson: Thank you.

The Chairperson (Dr Archibald): Can we bring Claire into the spotlight, please?

Ms Sugden: Hi, Chair. Can you see me, no?

The Chairperson (Dr Archibald): No, we cannot, but we can hear you.

Ms Sugden: Is that all right? Sorry, I do not know what is happening there, because my camera is on.

Thank you. I appreciate this. It has been interesting, as usual. I suppose that I would have come into the conversation thinking that this is something that we need, albeit that I see the limitations with the time that we have left to develop it correctly. I am keen to ensure that there is more consideration of it in the next mandate.

Perhaps you have already answered this in some respects, but is there a thought that maybe there is no issue with zero-hours contracts now because we are not aware of it? By its very nature and the way in which people are employing — I appreciate that there are lots of constraints out there on small businesses and getting employees generally — is it a hidden issue, rather than it not necessarily being an issue any more? I say that not as a criticism of employers, because I recognise that, if it is a hidden issue, it can impact on businesses as much as it impacts on employees.

Mr Roberts: Well, I think —.

Mr Neill: Sorry, Glyn. Go ahead.

Mr Roberts: Obviously, when we were doing this, we did not have time to do a deep dive among our membership on the issue. We talked to USDAW to get its perspective. In many respects, it would be more across the views of retail workers than we would be.

want to see them banned, zero-hours contracts are not a widespread practice in the retail sector any more. Obviously, given a week's notice, you cannot expect us to do anything extensive on that. I think that we and Hospitality Ulster are the only two business groups that have agreed to give evidence on it. We are always happy to do that, but, obviously, you could not expect us to do anything terribly detailed with a week's notice.

Ms Sugden: I fully appreciate that. It is generous of you to even come and present to the Committee, given the limited time. There might be an opportunity in the next mandate to pick up the legislation that has been put in towards the end of this mandate. Hopefully, this will start to get people thinking about the issue. That is the best that we can hope for at this point.

The Chairperson (Dr Archibald): No one else is indicating that they wish to ask a question. Thanks to both of you for taking the time to talk to us. We appreciate it, because it was at short notice, but, obviously, we are under pressure timewise to get a report done before the end of the mandate.

Some fairly positive stuff has come out of this morning's briefing. Glyn, I am familiar with Retail NI's 'The Wellbeing Plan', and it was good to hear about the employers charter from Hospitality Ulster. Important issues have been highlighted in respect of work-life balance and well-being, and I think that we will look at them again in the next mandate. Well-being is a focus that needs to be included in a future Programme for Government. We are coming at it from an employment law and employment rights perspective. Some of these things need to be codified in legislation. The Bill has sparked a conversation around zero-hours contracts, the banning of which was a New Decade, New Approach (NDNA) commitment, so we will need to return to that, but there are other important employment issues that also need to be looked at. Do you have anything to add before we finish?

Mr Roberts: I expect that this is the last time that I will present to the Committee in the mandate. Thank you, Chair, Committee Clerk, team and members. Your Committee has been leading from the front throughout, not just in the short term of this mandate. You have been an effective Committee that has been a cheerleader for our economy. I wish you all the best.

Mr Neill: I echo what my colleague has said. Members will have engaged much more with Colin, but we have always enjoyed a collaborative working relationship and are grateful for that. Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you this morning.

The Chairperson (Dr Archibald): I echo those comments. The level of collaboration that we have had over the past two years, particularly in relation to the pandemic, has been invaluable in helping us to respond. Obviously, that appreciation is reciprocated.

Mr Roberts: And I hope that StarLeaf is a thing of the past. [Laughter.]