Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Ms McLaughlin): I welcome, from the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS), Mr Gerry Campbell, chief executive; Mr Tony McCusker, council member and chair of the finance and personnel committee; and Mrs Patricia Carville, vice chair of the council and member of the finance and personnel committee. I also welcome my bishop, Donal McKeown, chair of the council and chair of the Catholic Schools' Trustee Service (CSTS). I advise everyone that the session will be reported by Hansard and that the video of the meeting will be available on the Committee website. I invite you to deliver your brief to the Committee.

Bishop Donal McKeown (Catholic Schools' Trustee Service): I will kick off with some introductory comments, and then perhaps there can be questions or whatever you want. We are happy to engage in this conversation with you.

I begin by expressing, on behalf of CCMS and CSTS, our condolences to all of you for the loss of a colleague, Christopher Stalford. As chair of CCMS, I also wrote to the head of the DUP to express our condolences. It is a sad day for all of you; I appreciate that. Thank you for all the work that you do in trying, as you say, to get a decent little country going here. It takes the work of all of us to ensure that we get it as right as it can be, especially for our young people.

I have just a few introductory comments, if that is OK, Chair, and then we can begin a conversation, as you see fit.

The Fair Employment (Northern Ireland) Act 1976 allowed for a number of exceptions, including the employment of teachers. At that stage — it is a long time ago — all the main Churches considered the exception of teachers from the legislation to be a valid mechanism for protecting the identity of schools with a faith-based tradition. That is a long time ago,1976 — 45 years ago. Those exceptions were subsequently included in the Fair Employment and Treatment (Northern Ireland) Order 1998 (FETO).

It is important for me to say that the trustees of Catholic schools — one of the hats that I am wearing at the present time — and CCMS are, and always have been, opposed to discrimination on religious or political grounds. Our objective has only ever been to assess whether a candidate understands and supports the Catholic ethos, the identity of the school. There has never been any suggestion that I know of that a teacher failed to be appointed to a Catholic school because of their religion or political opinion. The trustees of Catholic schools and CCMS continue to believe that the values and ethos of a Catholic education are critical to the identity of the Catholic schools, but we consider that the exception in the 1998 Order is no longer appropriate or required.

As an aside, all that legislation at that stage in 1998 almost worked on the assumption that everybody was Catholic or Protestant. That is a bizarre assumption for any political decisions in 2022 in a very diverse Northern Ireland. Catholic schools are increasingly diverse and welcoming to all children. For example, 52% of newcomer children have opted to go to Catholic schools, many of them from outside the Christian tradition, so our schools are diverse and welcoming to all children. We believe that our teaching workforce should reflect that, and therefore the trustees of Catholic schools and CCMS would support the repeal of the article 71 exception as it applies to the recruitment of teachers.

The trustees and CCMS will want to have the right to promote our ethos and will want to ensure that the ethos and values of Catholic education continue to permeate those schools. We will, of course, wish to negotiate the post-FETO arrangements, but we have the right to expect that all teachers understand and are committed to the ethos of the Catholic schools in which they wish to teach. For teachers in Catholic primary schools, and for some designated posts in Catholic post-primary schools, we also, as a genuine occupational requirement, continue to require a certificate in religious education (CRE). That is not restricted to Catholic teachers, and is now widely available at St Mary's University College, Stranmillis University College and Ulster University.

I hope that it is clear from what I have said that we are looking to develop something that is fit for purpose to ensure that, as you talk about the bill of rights, people who choose to access a particular form of education are not disadvantaged in their ability to access that, and that Catholic schools are enabled to at least ensure that somebody joining their school, just as other sectors would want to do the same, is in support of the ethos of the school. I hope that that at least opens up the discussion for you and is reasonably clear, Chair.

The Chairperson (Ms McLaughlin): Thank you. Are there any further briefings?

Mr Gerry Campbell (Council for Catholic Maintained Schools): In addition to the points raised by Bishop Donal McKeown, we want to work with politicians and other stakeholders in what will be the post-FETO situation. There has been a lot of debate recently, as we all know, about the diversity and inclusivity of our education system. We strongly believe that Catholic education and faith-based education have a strong role to play within the Northern Irish education system. There is a place for Catholic schools; there is a place for faith-based education; indeed, there is a place for all our sectors in terms of inclusivity and adding to a diverse educational system, and we want to play our part. Post the repeal of the exception, we want to continue to work with this Committee and with other political stakeholders to ensure that we are able to protect the ethos in our Catholic schools, which have been a shining light and a shining beacon over the past 40 to 50 years through the high quality of education, along with our sectoral partners in the controlled, integrated, Irish-medium and grammar sectors etc. We all have a role to play. The bishop has outlined our current position, and, hopefully, in the new mandate, we will be able to work with this Committee and other politicians moving forward.

The Chairperson (Ms McLaughlin): Thank you very much, Bishop Donal and Gerry, for your briefing. I acknowledge the contribution that Catholic education has made to wider society and to individuals. That is absolutely in no way in question at all. I think that there is lots of room in our society for faith-based education and all of that, and we are the richer for it. I want to address a couple of things. If the exemption were removed, what impact do you think that that would have on pupils in Catholic schools?

Bishop McKeown: I think that, since we have never used it, it will not have any effect. Our only concern is that this might be used as a Trojan Horse to try to remove any ability for Catholic schools to say that they are different in their ethos from other sectors. I stand to be corrected if necessary, but my understanding is that perhaps the only sector that has actively needed this exception may have been some schools in the integrated sector that wanted to ensure that they had a balanced workforce. As long as boards of governors are entitled to say, "Do you understand the ethos of this school and are you prepared to work within that and support it?", we have no need whatsoever to say that you appoint someone just because of their perceived religious affiliation.

The Chairperson (Ms McLaughlin): Let me throw this into the conversation. Ethos is very much an individual understanding. Ethos could be just about people's attitudes, or it could be about the leadership. I go into some schools; I will name one. If I go into St Cecilia's College in Creggan, for example, I immediately feel the warmth in that school, but that is about leadership. I do not necessarily think that it is the Catholic ethos, because I can feel that atmosphere in other faith-based schools or in non-faith schools. Sometimes it is about attitudes, the culture, being aspirational and being ambitious. Ethos is not just about the faith of the school. How do you think that you can preserve that? Do you think that the ethos of a school would be negated if this Bill were to go through?

Bishop McKeown: No, as long as boards of governors are entitled to say, "Have you any idea of the particular ethos of this school and are you prepared to support it?" We have never discriminated against anyone on the basis of their perceived religious affiliation. That would be a meaningless thing to do nowadays. Just because you are called by a particular Christian or first name does not mean that you have any allegiance to any particular thing. What we are saying clearly is that, if this is removed, it will not affect us in any way, as long as it is not a Trojan Horse to ensure that we are not able to ask a teacher whether they support the ethos of the school and risk being accused of being discriminatory because of that.

The Chairperson (Ms McLaughlin): Suggestions have been made about the possibility of staging this Bill by bringing it in to secondary schools first. What do you feel the effect would be if the exemption were removed for secondary schools only?

Bishop McKeown: We have never used it in secondary schools. We have had a Presbyterian elder as principal of a large Catholic school. We have had people who are not from the Catholic community who are in senior positions in Catholic schools. Of course we have that. That is not a problem. We have had that for years. We have plenty of examples where people who come from other perceived backgrounds choose a local Catholic school precisely because it is a Catholic school and they enjoy that. Removing that is not going to affect any appointments in any schools, as long as we can say, "Look, do you understand the ethos of this particular school?" That is all.

Mr Campbell: May I make a comment on the back of what the bishop said? Our statement has outlined the position in relation to not only post-primary schools but primary schools. That position is fairly clear in what we have outlined this afternoon. There is a caveat to that, which is that we want to work, post-FETO and whatever comes through in legislation, with politicians in order to ensure that an ethos in a school can be protected. You mentioned a visit to St Cecilia's College, which is a fantastic post-primary school in Derry. Like many of our other Catholic schools, it is epitomised by a strong ethos and a strong leader supported by a strong set of governors. It has the highest quality of education, with wrap-around pastoral care, developing those young girls to be the very best that they can be in order that they can make a contribution to the local community, to wider society and, ultimately, to the economy. All those elements come together. It is a very strong mix, and leadership is an important element of that.

The Chairperson (Ms McLaughlin): Thank you. I am going to bring members in to ask questions. I have to say that there are other schools in other constituencies, not just in my Foyle constituency. There are other good schools.

Mrs Dodds: Good afternoon to you all; it is nice to see everyone again. Our paths seem to cross at an enormous rate these days.

I think that we have got to the stage where most people believe that the exemption does not sit easily with a modern Northern Ireland. Many people have said that to us. It is interesting that you and the representatives of the Transferor Representatives' Council (TRC), whom we spoke to last week, have both raised the particular issue of guaranteeing ethos. It is interesting that we should be having that conversation, because, of course, we are going to debate the Integrated Education Bill in the House tomorrow. The first clauses of the Integrated Education Bill actually define what the ethos of a school is in law. What is your view of that in a post-FETO arrangement for other schools?

Bishop McKeown: One of the characteristics of a modern liberal society is respect for diversity in all ways. One of the characteristics of our education systems, particularly since the Thatcherite period, has been competition between schools. There is a market out there where schools seek to sell themselves in order to attract pupils to come to them and parents to support them. Catholic schools are very happy to put our distinctive offering on the table for parents. The reality is that many people want a range of options to be available, but an awful lot of them want to have access to Catholic education.

Unless we say that we have a particular ethos that we can clearly articulate, why on earth would we exist as a diverse sector? Why would any sector claim to be diverse and have something distinctive — some unique selling point? Catholic education is constantly trying to articulate what it stands for and how that ethos can help to deliver quality social and academic outcomes. We are happy to be part of a modern, diverse society that leaves room for diversity and ensures that all of us are working together to ensure the best outcomes, particularly for those who are being failed by the system as it currently exists.

It is also important to recognise that, going by figures from Northern Ireland, in the past three years, there have been a lot more complaints to the PSNI about racial abuse than about sectarian abuse. Perhaps if we kept the focus on the big picture in 2022 rather than one from 1998, we might focus on how we ensure that all our schools work together to provide quality social and educational outcomes for all our young people. Diversity is the essence of who we are in Northern Ireland into the future, where diversity is cherished and not regarded as something alien or undesirable. I am happy that we continue to try to articulate our ethos, and that other sectors articulate theirs. I think that most of the integrated school sector would say that ethos is individual to the schools; there is not much of an agreed, shared ethos across the sector. At least, I have been told that by people in the integrated sector.

We are happy to try to develop whatever links we can to ensure that we pull together, rather than fragment, as people are very often inclined to do in modern societies. By pulling together and ensuring that our links with communities are very strong, we will be able to offer a transcendent horizon through all our educational processes and actually develop a quality outcome that helps so many of our young people who are suffering from depression, mental illness, suicidal ideation and all those things so that they have hope for, rather than fear of, the future. We recognise all the challenges that are out there. We want to ensure that our distinctive ethos is a contributor to civic life and that we work with all other partners. I think that we do that very well here in Derry, where we have a very integrated education provision across the various sectors. That means that we can look to the future with confidence, rather than fear.

Mr Campbell: The diversity in our education system is a strength. There is a place for each of us at the table. That place should be on an equal

basis, because we all bring our particular strengths. Parents continue to make a preference for an education for their child that is in line with their philosophical convictions. Catholic education is very strong across the world. Many such schools exist in many countries across the world. Catholic education is cherished and supported. We believe that it will continue to have a strong place at the table in Northern Ireland, along with our partners, on an equal basis. We are all delivering a common curriculum, we are funded in exactly the same way through the Department of Education, and we all want to continue to strive to develop our partnerships even further. We have come a long way. Schools were well ahead of politicians and other aspects of society in reaching out and working together in partnership. However, in doing that, there must always be a place for each of us moving forward with our respective ethos.

Mr Tony McCusker (Council for Catholic Maintained Schools): Can I just add —

Mrs Dodds: Sorry, just so that I do not forget the point, which, at my age, is perfectly possible, I accept entirely — it is a good thing — that we have a diverse choice-offering system in Northern Ireland. Parents can choose the education that they want for their child, whether that is an integrated education, a Catholic maintained education, a grammar-school education or an education in a non-selective school. That variety of choice can be a strength. What I would love us all to focus on are the inequalities in accessing education and where we need to do better. That is not the issue for me. I accept and welcome the role that each sector will play.

We are debating the Integrated Education Bill. One of its clauses defines specifically for us what an integrated school is. An integrated school is one that "intentionally supports, protects and advances" etc. When the TRC were with us last week, they indicated that they wanted to understand how, in a future arrangement where the exemption has gone, we would protect ethos. It seems that, in the Integrated Education Bill, we are protecting it in law. Do you think that it is necessary to protect ethos in law, or is ethos something that we live with, choose and work with? That is the nub of where I want to go. I accept Bishop McKeown's argument that the exemption does not do anything for ethos because it is irrespective; the ethos is the ethos of the school.

Mr McCusker: We want the agreement that we can apply our ethos, but, if one sector got the benefit of protection for its ethos, that would seriously affect the other sectors, because it would mean that the other sectors have no legal protection while one sector does. If there is the suggestion that one sector should have legal protection for its ethos, that should apply to all sectors.

Mrs Dodds: It is not a suggestion; it is in the Bill. I am sitting with the Bill in front of me at the moment. It is in the Bill.

Mr McCusker: As you know, we see the Bill as one-sided when it comes to its support —

Mrs Dodds: You know my argument on that and exactly where I stand. I am just interested. The issue came up last week, and it is an issue that you have raised this week.

Mr McCusker: Our position has always been that we have our ethos and that we will continue to have our ethos and to select our teachers on the basis that they understand and accept our ethos.

Mr Stewart: I thank Gerry, his team and Bishop McKeown. Thank you so much for coming along today; we really appreciate it. It is good to get an insight into the issue, and, as Diane and others have said, we have heard that there is broad agreement that this is an outdated anomaly in fair employment legislation and that it has to go. I am pleased to hear you, Gerry, echoing the words from one of your predecessors, Eugene O'Neill. I was doing some research today, and when he presented to the Education Committee in 2013, he said:

It is somewhat startling that, nine years on, we are still having the same conversation and that nothing has moved on. I am glad to hear that that remains the position of CCMS and CSTS. That is good. Hopefully, although there is a limited time left in the mandate, this private Member's Bill can get through and put those changes into law.

I will pick up on one point. It is about the potential impact of this. I understand that, in requesting references for applications for principal's posts, CCMS can ask referees to rank the applicant on their commitment to Catholic education. What is your understanding of whether that question could be asked, if the private Member's Bill passes? How will someone who is agnostic or an atheist be able to adequately provide evidence of that to an employer who is writing a reference so as not to inadvertently be discriminated against during the employment process?

Mrs Patricia Carville (Council for Catholic Maintained Schools): I am Pat Carville, the vice chair of the council. I have been working on and chairing panels for leadership roles in the Catholic maintained sector for the past 20 years. Yes, that is one of the questions. However, we have just reviewed our scheme of management, and it is all up for review. One of the things that was highlighted was that, in fact, there were several things on the reference form that said, "What is their classroom practice like?" It is very difficult for a chair of a board of governors to ascertain whether the principal or vice principal of a school is a good classroom practitioner. There are a number of anomalies in the reference form that you mentioned, John. We are having a new scheme of management, and we will be reviewing it. I agree that it is very difficult to say whether someone is committed. They may write down that they are, but that does not mean that they are committed to the Catholic ethos. You would have to tease that out in an interview situation.

Mr Campbell: May I come in there as well, John?

Mr Stewart: Absolutely.

Mr Campbell: Bishop McKeown's initial statement referenced the 1976 Act. The world is in a different place than it was 45 years ago, when that legislation went through. Things have moved on. When it comes to where we see the exception going and the repeal etc, we will continue to review all our recruitment procedures and how they fit with any future landscape.

I was a governor in a primary and a post-primary school for quite a number of years, before I took up this post, and I chaired and participated in numerous recruitment and selection panels. Every candidate was selected on the principle of merit. As an individual, in any walk of life, that is how you recruit and select individuals for jobs. For me, it would be absolutely abhorrent if an individual were not selected for a job on that basis.

Looking forward, we believe that the landscape has totally changed, and we live in a different world now to that of 1976 or, indeed, to that of 1998 when the FETO amendment legislation went through. Things are changing, and we want to work proactively with this Committee and others, whatever happens to the legislation.

Mr Stewart: Thanks for that. That is useful. I am a governor of two schools myself, so I understand that process and how much effort goes into securing it. I am also passionate about the ethos that exists in the schools that I work with and those my kids go to. I understand that. Let me tease out that point where you said that potential consequences could come from this private Member's Bill impacting on the ethos. Just to get back to the point that I was making, do you think it possible, or maybe this is the case already, that someone who is an atheist or agnostic is able to maintain and promote the ethos within the Catholic maintained schools, for example?

Mr Campbell: It already happens, John. Society has changed. If we go back over that 45 or 24 years, society is much more secular and pluralist. We have many people teaching in Catholic schools who may be nominally Catholic, other teachers from other Christian denominations and some who might be atheist. We need commitment to the ethos of the school, but we want the right person, teacher or leader. As long as they can commit and deliver that highest-quality education within the ethos of the school, that is what we want. We want the right person.

Mr Stewart: That is very useful. Just to help me get my head around that, Patricia, you said that how references are being sought is being reviewed at the minute.

Mrs Carville: Yes.

Mr Stewart: So will that change?

Mrs Carville: We have been concerned for some time that to rank order somebody from 1 to 6 on any of the criteria is very subjective. We have changed our scheme of management to a competency-based process. It will be the same with getting a reference. It will be more of a competency-based process: how competent is this person to work in the school or lead it? I am talking really about leadership roles. In the school in which I am chair of the governors, we do not have references that mark individuals 1 to 6 in any of the appointments that we make. It is under review at the moment, yes.

Mr Stewart: Thank you so much for taking my questions and helping me to tease out those issues. It is really important. I appreciate it and thank you for your time.

Mr Lunn: It is nice to meet Bishop Donal and Gerry, Tony and Patricia again.

I spent almost 10 years on the Education Committee. There has been a lot of talk about ethos today. During my time on the Education Committee, I was in an awful lot of schools right across the spectrum. The ethos of the Catholic schools was plain to see. As soon as you walked in the door, it was apparent. The Catholic education system has every reason to be proud that it has maintained that ethos. The question would be whether this particular change would undermine, or risk undermining, that ethos. Having said that, I would also say that, when we went into integrated schools, which we did frequently, there was a clearly defined ethos there as well. It is good for the school, and it enhances it to have a particular ethos. For that reason, I am somewhat torn, I must confess, about this change, whether it is a good thing or bad, or worthwhile.

I have a few questions. Patricia, you mentioned that, in the appointment of a principal, there is a need to ascertain his or her commitment to the aims and values of Catholic education. I know of only one Catholic school, in my time, that had a non-Catholic principal, and that was in Portstewart. Are there any others, or was that a one-off? Is it an occasional thing that happens, that somebody of non-Catholic background might become the principal of a Catholic school?

Mr Campbell: We do not have figures in front of us, Trevor. I know the example that you are referring to.

Mr McCusker: He is on the council.

Mr Campbell: He is actually a member of the council, as well.

We welcome the changes that are likely to come on foot of the Bill. We have come here very proactively this afternoon. We are in a position to welcome this moving forward. I welcome your comments and the comments of other members, including the Chair, about having been at Catholic schools and about the quality of education in Catholic schools. We think that Catholic education will still be strong, progressive and proactive, moving forward, should the legislation change.

The important thing to go back to, which is why I particularly referenced the comments that have been made, is that Catholic education and our educational partners in other sectors all have a contribution to make to enriching and improving the lives of thousands of young people yearly. We all have a part to play. It is welcome to hear, from a number of members this afternoon, about the quality of Catholic schools and the difference that they make. This legislation will not affect the impact that Catholic schools continue to have. We will continue to see those schools delivering the highest quality education and developing our young people to make a contribution to society and to the economy.

We all have work to do when it comes to inclusivity. I do not necessarily want to go back over the narrative that has been played out over the past number of months, but our schools are very much based in our local communities. That is where Catholic schools are; they are based in local communities. We have work to do, as a society, to move forward in relation to housing and where our communities live. For example, if a Catholic school is based in the heart of an area that is predominantly nationalist or Catholic, it will draw its pupils from that area.

We want to be outward-focused. We want to be able to attract the best and highest quality teachers, leaders and governors to our schools. To be quite honest, we want the right people with the right skills and attributes for the jobs. We do not look at whether somebody is a Catholic, a Protestant, an atheist or somebody from another faith tradition; we want the right person, who can make the difference to the young people in the classroom so that they can be the very best that they can be.

Mr McCusker: The other thing to add is that our hope is that, with the removal of FETO, we will actually draw a wider base of applications to our schools so that our schools reflect the diversity of the society in which we live and, in particular, they reflect the diversity of our schools, which are becoming more diverse as we move forward.

Mr Lunn: Thanks for that. I read the notes fairly thoroughly today. I probably should have known this anyway, but I noticed that the religious affiliation of a candidate for a teaching post is not revealed to the selection panel. That would probably be illegal, anyway, but it is not revealed. Can I take it that, on that basis, you do not actually know what proportion of the Catholic teaching force across the country is non-Catholic?

Mr McCusker: It is, pretty much, guesswork at this stage, but, if this legislative change emerges, we will be required to monitor our workforce, so the composition of every part of the workforce in education is an area that would become fairly apparent as we go forward.

Mrs Carville: likely to be higher in the post-primary sector than in the primary sector.

Mr Lunn: It is fair to say that there is a representation —

Mrs Carville: Yes.

Mr Lunn: — and that it has not damaged your Catholic ethos or your Catholic system.

Mrs Carville: No.

Mr Lunn: I would have thought, in fact, that it has probably enhanced it in some ways.

Mrs Carville: Absolutely.

Mr Lunn: Bishop Donal mentioned integrated schools. I remember a meeting of the Education Committee — Bishop Donal, you may have been there on that day — that three Bishops attended. Bishop McAreavey was there, but I cannot remember the others. I asked whether they were satisfied with the preparation for the sacraments that occurs in integrated schools. Bishop McAreavey was in absolutely no doubt whatsoever. He said that the preparation was every bit as good in an integrated school as it would be in a Catholic school. Are you satisfied with that comment that he made?

Bishop McKeown: Everything depends on the individual schools, but I know, from celebrating confirmation in many of our parishes, that we find that children from integrated schools and controlled schools have, one way or another, been very well prepared or as well prepared as anybody in a Catholic school.

It comes back to ethos again, and I understand that every school has a certain hidden, informal curriculum, which is very formative of people. I have never questioned the preparation for sacraments of children that come from schools outside the Catholic-managed sector.

Mr Lunn: Lastly, I know that the Catholic certificate of education is now open to anybody who goes to any of the major teacher-training colleges, and it has been for some time. Do we have any idea what the take-up is for that certificate among potential teachers who may not have naturally intended to take it as Catholics? In other words, how many Protestants

and people of no denomination at all have taken up the offer to achieve that certificate? It seems to be quite an onerous thing. I see mention of 120 hours, 50 hours, a postgrad and three years to obtain it. It is a serious thing. So, what is the take-up among non-Catholic applicants? Maybe you do not know.

Bishop McKeown: I have no idea.

Mr Campbell: It is a certificate in religious education, so it is not a specific Catholic certificate. We welcome the fact that Stranmillis and Ulster University are offering the certificate to their students. It is something that we can come back to you on. We do not have the figures to hand at this stage, but the fact that it is much more accessible now certainly is to be welcomed.

A bit of work goes into it. As you said, there are a number of hours that a candidate will have to go through, but we will be happy to come back and give you that information.

Mr Lunn: In a way, you do not need to because everything that you have said today indicates to me that your system is fair. You appear to be quite happy to employ non-Catholics, as long as they are the right person for the job, as Gerry said. That surely has to be the major criterion involved here.

Mr Campbell: Absolutely, Trevor. Just to reiterate that point, Catholic education is open, welcoming and inclusive. There is work to be done through all our sectors to try to move forward in partnership. Shared education partnerships and programmes are a prime example, and we need much more of that. Things are moving forward, but, in Catholic education, we welcome the best candidates for the role that they play, whether that be the leader, support staff or teachers. It is open and welcoming to everybody.

That point is also for our other sectors as well. Inclusivity is not the domain of any particular sector. We all have a role and a share in bringing that forward, not just the Catholic-maintained sector and the wider Catholic-managed sector.

Mr Lunn: So, if the change were to come into being, what difference would it make, given that you are intent on appointing the right person for the job in the first place?

Mr McCusker: We always do.

Mr Lunn: I know you do, but what difference will it make?

Mr McCusker: It will not make any difference. We always employ the best person.

Bishop McKeown: We have indicated that we have no problem with it being removed.

Mrs Carville: No, absolutely not.

Mr Lunn: Thank you very much. I did not intend to ask so many questions, but it has been very interesting.

Mr Sheehan: Bishop McKeown, Gerry, Tony and Patricia, thank you for your contribution here today. I welcome the fact that you support the removal of the fair employment exemption. I think that everyone agrees that, in this day and age, it is an anachronism that should be done away with.

We have had some discussion around the certificate in religious education, although it is a separate issue, that it would still be a condition for the employment of a teacher. A teacher would have to be in possession of a CRE before they could be employed in a Catholic school. That is right, is it not?

Mr McCusker: In Catholic primary schools and in some designated post-primary schools.

Mr Sheehan: Sorry, I did not catch that, Tony.

Mr McCusker: In primary schools, it would be a requirement, and in some designated posts in post-primary schools.

Mr Sheehan: Trevor raised the issue of the preparation of children for sacraments in primary schools and said that Bishop McAreavey told him that the children were as well prepared in integrated schools as they were in Catholic schools. That is interesting because the debate that we are having today is all around ethos, and ethos is a thing that most people seem to understand yet have difficulty defining. Given that the Catholic sector outperforms all other sectors in educational outcomes, do you see ethos and performance being in some way connected, and, if you do, how are they connected?

Bishop McKeown: I did an MBA 20 years ago in educational management. One of the books that I read was by Bryk, Lee and Holland, from Harvard University, entitled 'Catholic Schools and the Common Good', particularly in the context of the US. It tried to identify a number of elements in the Weltanschauung — the world view — of the Catholic school that seemed to promote quality outcomes. One of them was an inspirational ideology open to the transcendent, strong emphasis on community, high expectations of all pupils, and all those things. There are many intangible things but there seems to be evidence from around the world that schools strongly open to the transcendent actually do, for some inexplicable reason, deliver high-quality outcomes, which is why they remain very popular.

I remember a senior civil servant in one Department — not the Department of Education, I can assure you — saying that there was a joke in his Department some years ago that said that, in order to improve educational outcomes in Northern Ireland, we should scrap Every School a Good School and replace it with "Every School a Catholic School". He was only joking about it, obviously, but there seems to be something in ethos — in the philosophy of schools with a particular ethos — that, for some reason or another, delivers quality outcomes.

I am not saying that all Catholic schools do exceptionally well, but there does seem to be a characteristic across the sector. We are wholly committed to ensuring that, in particular, those who are failed by the system at present are pulled up, and that the system advantages the disadvantaged, rather than further advantaging the already advantaged. We have some contribution to make to quality outcomes in Northern Ireland, where we are still failing far too many of our young people. We have to say mea culpa as well about the places where we are not doing as well as we could be for young people.

As Bolman and Deal said:

How can you possibly measure what is in the hearts of leaders? That is what we are trying to do in ensuring that we promote a good ethos.

Mr Campbell: One of the raison d'êtres for the establishment of CCMS, 30 years ago, was to raise standards. We have come a long way in raising standards with Catholic-maintained schools, but there is still a journey for each of us to travel.

the recent report 'A Fair Start', and the challenges that we have in tackling underachievement, so collectively all of us in education have a way to go. However, the success of Catholic schools in raising standards and delivering quality outcomes for so many young people — I referenced this a few moments ago — is due to a school being based in the local community and local parish. The connection between the school, the family and the child itself is a strong element in schools having been able to make that difference for so many young people in high-quality educational outcomes, the high quality of standards and the work.

It is not just all about educational outcomes. It is about developing the young person to be a well-rounded individual who is respectful and can make a positive contribution to society and the common good.

Mr Sheehan: Thanks. I welcome those comments, and I acknowledge the high standards that have existed in the Catholic-maintained sector for many years. One issue is that many schools still implement academic selection in the Catholic sector. I do not see how that contributes in any way to the ethos that has been discussed today. The Catholic hierarchy has spoken against academic selection, but it is time for another push on that issue, particularly in the Diocese of Down and Connor, where academic selection is still very strong.

In itself, academic selection creates an ethos of division and segregation. In the context of the integrated education debate, the Catholic-maintained sector has been accused of being responsible in some way for segregation or sectarianism. I do not, for one second, accept that argument, but I am critical of the continued practice of academic selection in your sector. It is time for you to take a strong stand against academic selection in your sector. It would help to further improve standards in your sector.

Bishop McKeown: I take that on board. You know where I stand on that, Pat.

Mr Sheehan: Yes. I do.

The Chairperson (Ms McLaughlin): Thank you all for your contributions today, particularly Bishop McKeown who fielded quite a lot of those questions, but I also thank Gerry, Tony and Patricia. Thank you very much for coming along and sharing your observations. We had a bit of a bleed in some of our questions; we went into the issues of integrated education and academic selection. However, it was opportune that we had you here to share your views and observations on all those matters. Thank you very much.

Mrs Carville: Thank you.

Mr McCusker: Thank you.

Bishop McKeown: Thank you.