Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Ms McLaughlin): I welcome Mr Paul Collins, head of public affairs and advocacy at the Integrated Education Fund (IEF); Dr Matthew Milliken, a researcher in the UNESCO centre in the school of education at Ulster University; and Mrs Katrina Crilly, the principal of Oakgrove Integrated College, which is in my constituency. I advise that the session is being recorded by Hansard. A video of the meeting will be available on the Committee's web page. I invite the panel to brief the Committee.

Mr Paul Collins (Integrated Education Fund): Good afternoon, Sinead. On behalf of the integrated education movement and Ulster University, thank you for allowing us to present to the Committee today.

We pass on our condolences to Christopher Stalford's family and his colleagues in the Northern Ireland Assembly. It was a great shock to hear the news at the weekend. We had some dealings with Christopher, and we always found him to be very professional and supportive of our work. Please pass on our condolences.

I will pass over to Dr Matt Milliken, who is a researcher at the UNESCO centre in the school of education at Ulster University. Dr Milliken will give the main part of the presentation. We will take questions afterwards.

Dr Matthew Milliken (Ulster University): Please bear with me while I try to sort out the technology.

Can everyone see the screen?

The Chairperson (Ms McLaughlin): That is perfect. Thank you.

Dr Milliken: Brilliant. I will just start off by addressing a point that Trevor Lunn raised in the previous session about the composition of the teaching workforce and the levels of movement between sectors. Because of the FETO exception, because of article 71, there is no record of how many Catholics work in the controlled sector or how many Protestants work in the maintained sector, or in any of the sectors. However, I undertook research in 2018, which illuminated that. I conducted an online survey that was completed by over 1,000 teachers, which is approximately 5% of the total number of teachers, which allows a high degree of confidence. I was able to show that, in maintained primary schools, only 2% of teachers identify as Protestant. In controlled primary schools, about 7% identified as being Catholic. Integrated primary schools are considerably more balanced in their proportions. Post-primary schools show greater diversity. Around 17% of teachers in controlled schools are Catholic, and around 8% of teachers in maintained post-primary schools are Protestant. Figures are even higher in grammar schools, where non-denominational voluntary grammars have about 23% Catholic teachers, and Catholic grammar schools have about 17% Protestant teachers. Hopefully, Trevor, that answers your question. There is research out there, but there are no official statistics.

Those statistics show a remarkable change from previous research that had been done into this matter. There have only been two previous pieces of research, one in 1977 and another in 2004. Both of those showed remarkable community consistency in all sectors, with only 1% or 2% of outliers — Catholics working in state schools and Protestants in maintained schools.

One of the features of this is that a significant proportion of teachers pass through education without any meaningful contact across the divide. I identified these as being "culturally encapsulated" teachers. These are the people who are required to lead their pupils in the exploration of sensitive topics through shared education, yet they are actually less likely to have sat, at any stage in their educational career, alongside somebody of another faith than the plumber who comes to fix the school toilets.

In conjunction with the quantitative research that I did, I did qualitative interviews, with a purposive sample of 30 teachers who had moved from their community of origin to work in a school on the other side. An analysis of that data showed that the pattern of deployment is

by three issues: policy, perceptions and practice.

With regard to policy, just as we heard from the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS) and the bishop, the FETO exception is rarely, if ever, called on to justify an appointment. In fact, none of those whom I interviewed could recall any incident where it had been. Teachers felt that there were other elements of policy that were more effective in limiting community crossover in the teaching profession.

Primarily, and often mentioned, was the separation of the teaching colleges for those who aspired to teach in a primary school: St Mary's on the one side, and Stranmillis on the other. The ethos of those institutions prepares prospective teachers to adopt a one-sided outlook. It encourages them to remain within familiar settings, for example, by undertaking teaching practice within their associated sector. That also affected student teachers' opportunity, awareness of and enthusiasm to undertake the RE certificate. That certificate, which is required to teach in maintained primaries, is delivered as part of the post-primary course in Ulster University, which is a much more mixed environment, but it is only an optional, additional course in Stranmillis, and it is an integral part of the course in St Mary's.

In fact, it has virtually blanket coverage, to the extent that a lot of prospective teachers here cannot get into Stranmillis or St Mary's and, instead, opt to go to colleges in England or Scotland. Catholic students generally choose to go to Catholic colleges in England, where they are able to get an equivalent certificate, whereas prospective Protestant teachers who leave here tend to go to different colleges. The division that we have here persists, even for those who depart these shores.

It is notable that, historically, the FETO exception was argued, by Protestant teachers, as being required to offset the imbalance that the Catholic teaching certificate created. The requirement for that certificate, because few Protestant teachers completed it, felt like a barrier to employment in maintained schools, so the Protestant teachers required that counterbalance. The aspiration of ensuring equality is not well-served by offsetting one restrictive policy with another, or by justifying discrimination on the basis of mutual disadvantage.

Interviews spoke to a perception that there is no point in applying for a job in a school outside your own sector. The community separation of teachers could, therefore, be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Teachers choose not to apply for posts on the other side, because they presuppose that any such application would be unsuccessful. The veracity of that supposition was effectively confirmed but never really tested. The presence of the FETO exception contributes to a climate where religious discrimination is an accepted component in the process of appointing teachers. It is an effective deterrent simply by virtue of its existence and sends out a clear signal that prevents many Catholic teachers from considering employment in a controlled school or Protestant teachers from applying to a maintained school.

Notably, the FETO exception has been called upon to justify intra-faith discrimination. For example, it may be used to ensure that a teacher with a record of church attendance can be employed ahead of one whose faith adherence may have lapsed, or it may mean that an applicant who is aligned with one Protestant denomination is preferred to a better-qualified teacher from another denomination. As has already been mentioned, appointments to teaching posts are made by voluntary boards of governors. Those boards are often chaired or heavily influenced by clerics. Comments were made that the FETO exception had afforded Church representatives the opportunity to rule on the religiosity of a candidate and, thereby, enabled a culture of nepotism. Such employment practices do not work to the benefit of the creation of an inclusive, egalitarian society, or to ensure effective local community relations or provide our children with the best education to prepare them for full engagement in a rich and diverse society.

The evidence from my research indicates that removing the FETO exception for teachers would not immediately impact on the teaching of religious observance, such as the sacraments. Those posts are already protected by the RE certificate requirement. The removal of the FETO exception on its own is unlikely to have any large-scale immediate impact on the proportion of teachers who are employed across the divide. It has been suggested that it enables integrated schools to use faith to discriminate between applicants for teaching posts in order to ensure that they have a balanced staff room. However, as evidenced by the presence of the IEF and the principal of Oakwood Integrated College here today, the proposed repeal has broad support across the integrated movement.

The passing of the Bill would send out a clear, unequivocal signal that the Assembly is committed to equality, that discriminatory employment practices have been consigned to history, that this society values equality of opportunity and that we want our children to be educated by the best available teacher of a particular faith.

The Chairperson (Ms McLaughlin): Thank you. OK. Some of that data, which we were missing, is pretty stark. There is significant and clear division, which we understand. There are persistent religious divisions between our controlled and maintained sectors; that is a given. It is about how, if the Bill removes the exception, that might impact on the cross-recruitment process to help to even out those divisions, bring about the equal society that you are talking about and send an unequivocal message that the Assembly and our Executive want to see that equal society.

If the exemption were removed, how might Catholic schools, in particular, maintain their ethos? We heard a lot about the Catholic ethos in the previous presentation, so it would be interesting to hear your observations.

Dr Milliken: The obvious line is that sitting beside somebody who thinks differently to you does not damage your ethos. Rather, it creates a different ethos. It creates an ethos of exchange — of listening to and learning from each other. It creates an ethos of diversity rather than exclusivity; one of inclusion rather than of expelling people who think differently; and a richer environment for pupils and staff alike.

The Chairperson (Ms McLaughlin): Matthew, would the removal of the exemption really do much to change the cause of segregation in schools? Catholic children would, predominantly, still go to Catholic schools, and Protestant children would, predominantly, still go to Protestant schools. There is the division of teachers as well, possibly to reflect that. Would the removal of the exemption have the impact that we seek? Would it achieve balance and crossover between controlled and maintained sectors?

Dr Milliken: A number of years ago, the Catholic certificate was required in both primary and post-primary schools. It is now a requirement only for primary schools and some protected posts in post-primary schools. Previous research into the levels of crossover had shown the same patterns of minimal crossover in primary schools as in post-primary schools. Potentially as a result of the change in the requirement — I cannot say that it is a direct result — in the post-primary sector, as my research has indicated, post-primary schools genuinely seem to be trying to attract the best teacher and not just the best teacher of a particular religion.

It will not change immediately. A whole mindset change is required. The availability of the certificate course in Stranmillis will make a big change in the long term, but a mindset change is required. It is not legitimate to employ a nurse on the basis of her or his faith; it is not legitimate to employ a manager on the basis of his or her faith; why should it be legitimate to employ teachers purely by virtue of which church they go to?

The Chairperson (Ms McLaughlin): Necessity sometimes dictates the recruitment practices of some schools. We know that some schools, particularly in our secondary sector, are having significant difficulties in recruiting teachers for particular subjects, such as maths and science. Once schools get into the specifics of the skills or expertise base, they open up to other teachers. In a way, the removal of the exemption might be very good for teachers who are looking to secure a full-time post in a school. They will have a wider net to throw to a larger number of schools when they are seeking a job and a full-time contract. We could all be winners, really.

Dr Milliken: Absolutely. Some of the teachers to whom I spoke who had crossed over had never looked in 'The Irish News', for example, for a teaching post. It would not have crossed their mind to have done that. There was one teacher who wanted to come back from England. She had trained over there and taught for a number of years over there. She would not have thought of it until somebody put the job under her nose and said, "Apply for that one". She said, "But that is on the other side". The other person said, "Apply for that one". She got it, and she is engaged fully in that school now. It is a win-win, surely.

The Chairperson (Ms McLaughlin): Yes. OK. When my kids were at school, I always used to talk about the pastoral care in the school. That was about how the school looked after my daughters and cared for their mental health and their whole person. The pastoral care in how a school looks after its teachers is really important as well. That should not be entirely about religion; it is about good leadership and all the things that we spoke about.

Mr Sheehan: Thanks to our guests, Paul and Matt. There seems to be consensus that the exemption in fair employment legislation is an anachronism and should be done away with, which is to be welcomed. Ethos is one of the big issues or concepts that has arisen in our discussions to date. We heard about that during last week's evidence session and again today. I will ask the same question, Matt, that I asked our previous contributors. The Catholic sector, by all accounts, outperforms all the other sectors in terms of educational outcomes. That sector attributes that, at least partly, to the ethos in its schools. You are an education researcher. What evidence is there of that? If there is evidence, how does the ethos impact on the educational outcomes in a particular school or sector? That is a bit of a hazy question and is probably difficult to answer, but do your best anyway.

Dr Milliken: It is an excellent question, Pat. The easy questions are no fun at all. You asked whether there is any research, and the simple answer is that research is very, very limited. Ethos is so nebulous and so difficult to define that it is one of those areas that is difficult to research. However, I would counter that argument: yes, Catholic schools perform well, but would we say, "That hospital is performing well. Therefore, we will employ only white nurses or Muslim nurses or black nurses"? It does not make sense that the faith or political outlook of a particular teacher would counteract a school operating effectively.

Mr Sheehan: I agree with that. Teachers should have the same protections under employment legislation as any other worker or employee; that goes without saying. I know that that was a difficult question. That is all I wanted to ask, so thanks for that.

Dr Milliken: No worries.

Mr Delargy: Thanks to our guests for joining us. First, I declare an interest as a former primary-school teacher. I have a couple of points to make. I did a PGCE at Ulster University. It is the only place in the North now where you can do the primary PGCE. Having gone through the religious education certificate, I know that, while you do a lot of the training together, you still go off and train in sacramental preparation, and students who are not looking to go into Catholic education train in a different part of religion. There is still that kind of segregation. I suppose that that is necessary for sacramental preparation. However, it then becomes a case of people asking, "You did the joint religious certificate, but did you do the Catholic one or the Protestant one?". That is persistent, and it raises its head when you go for job interviews. I just wanted to flag that up with you.

Matt, you mentioned teachers moving back from England. I had a conversation this morning with a friend who is in the process of doing that. Another key problem in attracting teachers and diversifying the workforce is that education jobs are all advertised on separate platforms. You have to go through CCMS, the Education Authority or however many other websites and bureaucracy to find the jobs in the first place, which obviously presents a difficulty.

Finally, I will respond to your point about trying to introduce a broader range of teachers of all religious backgrounds, particularly into Catholic education. That is the sector in which I taught most recently. In a lot of applications in that sector, there is the obvious thing about Catholic ethos, and the word "ethos", rather than "religion", is encouraged. However, you are asked for dates and evidence of that. If you did not grow up in a Catholic faith background or if you were not a practising Catholic, you would not have evidence to support that. Therefore, your application effectively falls flat on its face from the get-go.

You are probably well aware of those issues, but, from a practical point of view, and as someone who has experienced them, I just want to register them with you. The presentation was very interesting, and a lot of it rang very true with my experience.

Dr Milliken: I agree wholeheartedly with what you have said. The Ulster University model for the RE certificate is an interesting one. It is slightly different from that provided in St Mary's. The St Mary's model is the one that is used in Stranmillis. It is a package that Stranmillis bought in, for want of a better word, from St Mary's. In the Ulster University model, primary-school PGCE students train alongside one another and undertake their RE certificate alongside one another, with a few outliers as required by the various sides. However, it is much easier for a Protestant student to undertake the RE certificate at Ulster University than at Stranmillis; I would say that.

The Chairperson (Ms McLaughlin): OK. Before we finish, does Katrina want to make any contribution? She works in the integrated sector and might have experiences to relate of, and a contribution to make on, ethos and the protection of a school's ethos.

Mrs Katrina Crilly (Oakgrove Integrated College): Thank you, Chair. On the ground in the integrated sector, we may have needed the FETO exception to maintain balance. However, in my experience, I have never needed it. If we change the mindset and have a broader spectrum and more open choice for teachers across all sectors, that will bring much more vibrancy and create a greater recruitment pool.

Fundamentally, it is about the people who are child-centred and who want to provide high-quality teaching and learning for children without any religious barriers whatsoever. I can only see that the removal of the FETO exception will create a bigger pool of teachers bringing different skill sets into schools and organisations. In that way, you will always get the best person for the job because you have a broader pool for recruitment. It has to be a win-win to have a bigger pool with more applicants from both communities. We have never really had a problem of balance, because we are always able to get the right person for the job through a rigorous recruitment process.

Let us think about the ethos of schools. For me, ethos is driven by the people, the community and all the individuals who are child-centred. I know that that phrase is bandied about a lot. Being "child-centred" is an in thing; you will never have an interview without somebody telling you how "child-centred" they are. However, at the end of the day, that cannot be demonstrated by words. This is a vocational profession where, on the whole, teachers, with the challenges that we face day in, day out, are here because of the children and because they want the very best outcomes for them. That in itself generates an ethos of everyone working for the greater good of every child in the building. For me, that is where the ethos comes from, regardless of the religious background of the school.

The Chairperson (Ms McLaughlin): Thank you, Katrina.

Mrs Dodds: My question is to Matthew. You said that there is not a lot of official information on the stats regarding who teaches in which schools. You may have said this, and I may have missed it. How did you gather the information that you presented to us?

Dr Milliken: Through a questionnaire that I circulated to all teachers in Northern Ireland. All teachers have designated email addresses. I circulated it via email, through schools, to teachers throughout Northern Ireland.

Mrs Dodds: OK. I am not questioning it. It seems to me that that is the sort of answer that you would get back. What kind of uptake did you have of the questionnaire?

Dr Milliken: There were over 1,000 responses to the questionnaire. There are about 18,000 teachers on the General Teaching Council roll in Northern Ireland, so it was about 5%. That allows me to say, with 95% confidence, that the figures are right within 3%.

Mrs Dodds: OK. The responses sound sensible. I was just interested in how you had achieved that. Thank you.

Dr Milliken: It is statistically valid research.

Ms Sheerin: Thanks to you all for the presentation. The removal of the FETO exception would bring teachers under the same equality employment legislation that everyone else has access to.

I have two questions. We have, effectively, two big education sectors in the North. Whether you call it "ethos", "religion" or "cultural ethos", there are two main sectors. I wonder whether that has a negative impact on people who do not designate as Christian of any denomination, how their thoughts and needs are considered in how they are educated, and whether they are being excluded. We have loads of newcomer communities in the North who, perhaps, attend Catholic-maintained or controlled schools. Are those pupils left feeling excluded if they do not want to engage in religious lessons?

Does the fact that we have two cultural sectors in education, and two separate and distinct historical curriculums and cultural outlooks, breed division and do nothing to help relations between the two traditional communities in the North?

Dr Milliken: On the first question — I am trying to remember the question [Laughter.]

They were all so long and convoluted. I think that it is just the time of day.

Ms Sheerin: It was just about school pupils, at either level, who are not Christian, how they are impacted and how their needs are considered.

Dr Milliken: Essentially, the education system here is Christian. Schools are required to have a daily act of Christian worship. They have an RE curriculum that they have to follow, which is devised by the Catholic Church, the Presbyterian Church, the Church of Ireland and the Methodist Church. There is no input from any other faith or anybody of a different world outlook; there is no humanist or atheist in there. Our schools are Christian institutions. That Christianity is much more developed and upfront in Catholic schools. It is present, but in a different context, in controlled schools. Controlled schools generally identify with a British identity, and maintained schools generally support an Irish cultural identity. I do not think that there is anything new in that, but that is the way that it is.

One of the interesting things that my research also identified was the phenomenal lack of teachers who do not fit into either of those two identities. There are very few teachers of colour in Northern Ireland, and very few who originate from outside of these two islands. There is very limited ethnic diversity outside the ethnopolitical British Protestant, Catholic Irish divide.

On the divisive nature of the curriculum, there is a common curriculum. All schools in Northern Ireland follow the same curriculum. The interpretation and emphasis that is placed on different bits of it is what marks the two sectors out from each other, but they follow the same curriculum. There are not two curricula.

Mr Collins: I will just clarify that with regard to the integrated education sector. I speak from personal experience, as my own children have gone through integrated primary and post-primary schools. My two daughters went to Forge Integrated Primary School. There were, effectively, three types of religious education, as such, that you could have. One was Catholic, which prepared you for the various sacraments, be that baptism, first confession and confirmation. You then had a different section, which was broader Christian faith. The last one was religions and faiths of the world. Pretty much all schools in Northern Ireland follow a broad Christian approach. However, in the integrated sector, there are those three choices, and parents can make the choice and decide which path to go down.

Ms Sheerin: Thank you.

The Chairperson (Ms McLaughlin): Thanks very much to everyone for your presentations. That was very insightful, and is much appreciated. It would be helpful if you could, perhaps, share those slides with the Committee, Matthew.

Dr Milliken: I sent them through to — who was I talking to yesterday?

The Chairperson (Ms McLaughlin): The Clerk, probably. That is OK.

Dr Milliken: I sent them through a couple of hours before the presentation.

The Chairperson (Ms McLaughlin): OK. That is excellent. Thank you very much.