Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Good afternoon, everybody. We have representatives from the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment (CCEA) and the Education Authority (EA) here today. We have John Unsworth, assistant director of school development in the EA; Esther Martin, business manager, CCEA; Roisin Radcliffe, programme manager, CCEA; and Deidre Coffey, who is the education manager for RSE specifically at CCEA. You are all very welcome here today.

I know that you have submitted briefing papers, but I am happy to open up for an initial presentation. You will have up to 10 minutes. We are quite tight for time, so we are looking at in and around 30 minutes for the evidence session, and we want to give members the opportunity to come back with questions. I will hand over to you.

Mr John Unsworth (Education Authority): I will kick off. I do not think that I will need my 10 minutes, but other colleagues may need more time than me. On behalf of the Education Authority, I thank you for the opportunity to meet the Committee and provide information that we hope will be of assistance to you in this mini-inquiry.

In providing support and guidance to schools on RSE, the Education Authority works in close collaboration with the Department of Education, who have just left, and with our partner bodies, particularly our colleagues in CCEA. Hopefully, that will become obvious as we talk to you this afternoon and as you continue your work. It is very much a partnership and collaborative approach.

In relation to RSE provision, the EA has a fairly limited role at present. It is important to be absolutely clear about that. As members will be aware, under the local management of schools legislation and arrangements, substantial autonomy is granted and delegated to individual schools on many aspects of school management and provision. That is delegated to the board of governors, the principal and staff. That has an influence and impact on our role and the role of others in this whole arena and in many other arenas.

While all schools are required by the Department to have an RSE policy, as you will know, individual schools have a fair degree of autonomy as to how they shape and deliver it. That is similar to other areas of the curriculum. What is the EA's role in all of that? The EA has particular responsibilities to provide advice, guidance and training to boards of governors. We have a particular remit for boards of governors in the controlled sector, as their managing authority, but we have wider system-wide responsibilities to all governors in respect of training. That is an important responsibility, but it is not one that we are terribly well resourced to fulfil. I am sure that that is a familiar story for members.

In relation to RSE, for example, when new regulations are brought in, as they were earlier this year, we simply remind governors, through our training programme and through any individual work with boards of governors, of their obligations and duties. In this case, we provided a very short training video overview of those new responsibilities. We do that for a whole range of different duties and responsibilities for boards of governors. RSE is just one example of that.

We also have particular responsibilities to provide advice and guidance to school principals and professional learning and development. There are some similarities with the approach to the boards of governors. Whilst the process of developing a policy and identifying teaching materials and resources, and making a determination as to what is suitable for their context and ethos, is very much a matter for schools themselves, we have a general duty to support professional learning and development. However, as I have set out in the briefing paper before you, we are very limited in our resources to support that for a variety of reasons, mostly economic. We do not have any specialist teams or officers with a specialist background in RSE, so it is not an area in which we are providing any professional learning or development.

The rest of the detail is in the paper. I am happy to respond to questions in due course.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Thank you, John. We will hear from CCEA now.

Ms Esther Martin (Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment): On behalf of CCEA, thank you for providing the opportunity to present evidence to the Committee today in relation to RSE.

RSE — relationships and sexuality education — has been included in the Northern Ireland curriculum since the current curriculum was introduced in 2007. It is a statutory component of personal development and mutual understanding in the primary phase and in learning for life and work at Key Stage 3 and Key Stage 4. However, the delivery of RSE is not restricted to those specific strands of the curriculum, and there should be many opportunities for a cross-curricular approach to RSE within the other areas of learning. Effective RSE supports the aim and objectives of the Northern Ireland curriculum to empower our young people to achieve their potential and make informed and responsible decisions throughout their lives by providing learning opportunities to develop as individuals and contributors to society.

We have taken a values- and rights-based approach to our work and to our development programme, and we consider the rights of every child and every young person in that development work. RSE empowers young people to explore, develop and understand their own personal values. Those values determine our boundaries and priorities. They guide our decision-making and help shape how we think, act and feel. They also have a lot of influence on how we interact with other people and are important considerations when we look to start relationships.

In addition, effective RSE provides children and young people with age-appropriate opportunities to explore and nurture positive values and attitudes towards relationships, love and sexual and reproductive health and to develop their self-esteem and respect for human rights in a safe and controlled environment. It contributes to the formation of a fair and compassionate society by empowering individuals and communities, promoting critical thinking skills and strengthening young people's understanding of sometimes sensitive or controversial issues. It is really at the heart of the Northern Ireland curriculum. CCEA has always provided a level of support and guidance around the delivery of RSE, but a more comprehensive programme of development work has been undertaken since 2018 in response to a commission received by the Department of Education to develop the RSE hub.

My colleagues, Roisin and Deidre, will provide some detail and explain a little bit more about the statutory curriculum for RSE and our development programme, stakeholder engagement and plans for this year. Thank you. I pass to Roisin.

Ms Roisin Radcliffe (Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment): Thank you Esther, and I thank the Committee for the opportunity to present evidence. In the paper, we outlined what the statutory curriculum is. Without reading through all of it, I want to give a bit of an overview.

Obviously, it is linked to one of our key objectives, which is to develop young people as individuals and contributors to society. It demarcates from the very beginning, when a child enters the Foundation Stage of their education. They are emerging from their home environment into a much wider world and even in the early stages of Foundation Stage, the focus is on encouraging the child to appreciate the world and the people around them and begin to develop healthy ways of navigating that world. Even at Foundation Stage, there are key themes that run through it and are statutory within the curriculum, such as personal understanding and health in particular. At Foundation Stage, for example, that would include things like being able to explore themselves and their personal attributes. The thinking there is that they begin to become aware of their value as a person, even though they are very young, and that, as they interact with other young children, they appreciate how people come together and begin to relate to each other and develop relationships. They are considering things like feelings and emotions and the importance of keeping healthy and how to keep safe in both familiar and unfamiliar settings.

That begins the progression pathway through school from Foundation Stage right up to Key Stage 4, and the same themes continue. For example, we have mutual understanding in the local and wider community. Initially they have their family and then they go beyond that to their classroom, playmates and wider children. They learn how to respond to people within that kind of setting.

As they mature through Foundation Stage, they begin to learn routines and how to express themselves, ask, develop manners and all those sorts of things that begin relationship development. That is picked up and continued again in Key Stages 1 and 2, where, once again, the focus is on developing the self-esteem and self-confidence of the child, allowing them to express emotion and enabling them to relate to things, once again, in a much more effective way than they would when they were, say, two years old or younger.

In Key Stage 2 that continues. Obviously, as the child matures, he or she explores more complex emotions and shares experiences with other children. With that comes further understanding of their role in the world as they know it, which is in the school setting and the wider community. That includes things like initiating, developing and sustaining mutually satisfying relationships. They begin to make friends that they can rely on. They can understand loyalty, human rights, social responsibility and their role within a setting, albeit a still quite restricted one. They begin to understand causes of conflict and appropriate responses and learn to value cultural difference and diversity and play an active and meaningful role in the life of that school community and beyond.

At Key Stage 3, which is for those aged between 11 and 14, they are moving out of the junior phase into a post-primary phase, where they begin to learn about key concepts that are relevant at that particular key stage and begin to mature into teenagers and onwards into adult life.

At Key Stage 3, RSE rests within learning for life and work, in which there are key concepts. The main concepts are self-awareness and personal health. Within those, pupils have an opportunity to explore their sense of self, which is really important in developing their sense of self-worth and their attitudes and opinions and in being able to share those with other children of their own age, see where differences lie and investigate the influences that surround them at that key stage.

Within the personal health element, they begin to consider the development of the health of the whole person. It is not just physical health; it is emotional health, relationships and their growth. All of that comes to the fore. They begin to develop an understanding of, and strategies to manage, the effects of change on body, mind and behaviour, and develop strategies to promote personal safety, which begins at Foundation Stage, where there is a focus on being safe, staying safe and being able to discuss experiences that may happen during the course of primary and on into post-primary education. They also begin to consider the more negative issues, such as bullying and, possibly, physical violence or abuse.

That continues. The third key concept is relationships. Obviously, in that period, they begin to develop a much deeper understanding of relationships and how to navigate them. That includes the like of exploring the qualities of relationships, including friendship, boundaries, gender issues and what constitutes a healthy relationship. It also explores the qualities of a loving and respectful relationship and what that means, and strategies to deal with challenging relationship scenarios that arise naturally during the course of their schooling at Key Stage 3 and their wider social life. They learn about conflict and the implications of sexual maturation, including sexual health, fertility, contraception, conception, teenage pregnancy and childbirth. They learn to explore the emotional, social and moral implications of early sexual activity and risk-taking. All of that is important.

The other strand of learning for life and work is home economics. There, they learn about home and family; their role within the family scenario and how roles change over time; how they need to begin to shape their emotions and how to deal with people; and how to support each other within the family setting. They also look at diverse family relationships. They learn about strategies to manage family scenarios, such as rivalry amongst siblings and so forth. It takes them into the teenage phase, which is Key Stage 4: 14 to 16. At that stage, they learn more about the fundamental skills that are prerequisites for life and work. As you know, CCEA has a qualification at that stage, which is a very good way of looking at all of the key concepts. Basically, they include health, self-management, risk-taking, the understanding of relationships and sexuality and the roles and responsibilities of parenting. More recently, since the intervention of the previous Secretary of State, there has been age-appropriate, comprehensive and scientifically accurate education on sexual and reproductive health and rights, which covers the prevention of early pregnancy and access to abortion.

As you can see, it is complex. It evolves as a progressive pathway throughout the curriculum, which is statutory. The idea is that the children are nurtured along the way, the whole way through. Post-16, it becomes more elective. Young people can say what they want to be taught and learn about, and they can open the way for schools to provide age-appropriate support for RSE at that stage.

I will pass over to Deidre.

Ms Deidre Coffey (Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment): Good afternoon, everyone. I will outline the resources that we have to support teachers in implementing an effective RSE curriculum: the RSE hub and the RSE progression framework. The RSE progression framework is a non-statutory progression framework that gives guidance to teachers from Foundation Stage to education post-16. It shows teachers how to cover the priority themes, which were commissioned by DE in the first instance. Those priority areas of RSE include consent, developments in contraception, domestic and sexual violence and abuse, healthy positive sexual expression and relationships, internet safety, LGBTQ+ matters, sexual and reproductive health and rights, social media and its effects on relationships and self-esteem, teen parenting and period dignity and menstrual well-being. So, there is a wide range of topics and issues that have to be covered in an age-appropriate way. The progression framework is there as guidance for teachers to help them do that.

The themes and associated content across the key stages are based, first, on the statutory curriculum, but the guidance has been developed through extensive research, which has included international and national frameworks. We have looked to other jurisdictions beyond Northern Ireland, nationally and internationally, to see what is happening in those places and learn from them. Given that there is such a broad spectrum of interests, we have engaged with lots of stakeholders in health, justice and online safety.

The main themes in primary education — Foundation Stage through to Key Stage 2 — are relationships, my body and development — health, growth and change — and safety and well-being, which includes self-awareness, feelings and emotions. For post-primary, we have self-awareness, relationships and health. Again, those are based on the statutory requirements. The framework aligns with the change to the minimum content in the curriculum. The new, updated RSE framework is not yet on our website, but it will be going up in the coming weeks.

It is important that children and young people are provided with a safe space to discuss those sensitive issues. We have done that through the progression framework, the RSE hub and the resources that we have provided for schools. All of the issues should be discussed in a value space, in a gender equality and human rights framework and, always, in the best interests of the child.

The RSE hub provides teachers with a repository of age-appropriate information, guidance on a range of topics and resources. We have produced resources on all of the topics that I have mentioned and we have some still in development. As well as that, we signpost teachers to outside organisations. Again, we have engaged with stakeholders in the development of that hub, including the Public Health Agency (PHA), the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Children and Young People (NICCY), the Education Authority, Church representatives and groups with specific areas of expertise.

The educators can download guidance documents and existing resources. We have developed those to help teachers address those sensitive issues. The resources provide minimum content, offer schools flexibility and can be adapted to meet the needs of the particular cohort that the teacher is working with. They should be delivered in line with the ethos and the RSE policy of the school, and teachers should ensure that they meet the wide-ranging needs of young people. In all of our resources, there is a statement at the beginning, reminding teachers to review the resources before they are used, in order to ensure that they meet the needs of the school. As well as that, the hub has open access. Sometimes, we hear about parents not knowing what the schools are teaching. Anyone can go on the RSE hub and access the resources or look at the progression framework. Of course, parents should be consulted on the development of the RSE policy in each school.

When we are looking at our resources, we use participative and interactive approaches to learning, including developing knowledge and skills and making appropriate choices, mitigating risk, looking at effective communication and listening, managing manipulative situations, negotiation, challenging myths, challenging their own perceptions, demonstrating respect for different perspectives and respecting the rights of others as well as themselves.

The hub contains a training and professional development section, with links to other organisations that offer teacher training and support for teachers and other educators, as well as parents, carers and boards of governors.

Many of those are also part of our stakeholder groups.

The hub was suspended, pending a review, in December 2023 and reinstated on 7 June 2024. There were no fundamental changes to the hub as a result of the review. Some information was updated and obsolete links were removed. The findings of the review were that CCEA had followed a detailed and evidence-based approach to the development of age-appropriate resources and guidance for RSE. Additionally, the materials had been developed by drawing on expertise, evidence and practice, and there has been a high level of engagement with key stakeholders at all stages. The engagement provided stakeholders with the opportunity to review the materials and feed back to us. Where appropriate, we have taken on board those suggestions and reviewed and enhanced the materials. We will keep the hub under annual review and will be adding additional topics and resources to the hub as we move forward.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): I need to cut in at this point and open the floor to questions.

Ms Coffey: That is fine.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Is there anything crucial that you need to add? We are running out of time.

Ms Coffey: I just wanted to say that we also held some teacher webinars to support teachers. We had really good uptake of those, despite the fact that there was action short of strike. That shows the interest of teachers in this particular area of work.

Ms Radcliffe: Throughout this journey, we have been very aware of the interconnectedness of what we are trying to do and how it links to other strategies across government and society. For that reason, we have engaged widely, for example, with the Gillen review implementation group for education and the online safety board on the elimination of violence against women and girls. What we are doing is a very positive step towards changing society and ensuring that young people have the best opportunity to flourish in the widest possible sense. We have set up our stakeholder group in such a way that we can get feedback and have the opportunity for deep discussions with a very diverse and wide range of groups that have a responsibility and remit to support children and young people.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Thank you, and I am sorry to have had to cut in, but we are running a bit tight with time. There has been a lot of material from CCEA, so members may want to come in on that. I have one question for the EA first, and it is on an issue that has come up in some of the other sessions that we have had: support for schools, but, more specifically, boards of governors. I declare an interest as a member of a board of governors in a controlled primary school. Will you give a sense of the level of support that is available? We are conscious that a lot is made of the policies that schools set for RSE. We are also very conscious that it is complex and that there are lots of competing interests and needs to work out in that space. What direct and proactive support does the EA provide to boards of governors in that space?

Mr Unsworth: Specifically in relation to RSE?

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Yes, in their policymaking.

Mr Unsworth: It is very limited at this stage. We have an outline template that could be used, but that is the limit of it. We simply do not have the resources to do more. Obviously, we also have to be conscious of the fact that each school — you will be aware of this as a governor in a school — has its own identity and ethos that serves particular communities. There will be a range of views from one school to the next. That has to have some influence on the type of guidance and advice that we provide. It is very limited, Chair.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): What is the level of uptake for training among governors?

Mr Unsworth: It is good. We are in a process of reconstitution at the minute but, for the previous academic year, when governors were already passed their term in practically every instance, we had a very good level of uptake. Generally, our whole training programme is done online. Regarding the specific small module on RSE, the uptake was small at the start because it was only introduced in January after the Secretary of State's legislation was introduced and many boards of governors were coming to the end of their terms. We have had a good uptake generally across the breadth of the training programme, and we expect that to go up with the reconstitution that is happening right now.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): With regard to monitoring quality and whether a policy is fit for purpose or appropriate, that sits with ETI rather than yourselves.

Mr Unsworth: It does, yes.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): That is fine. I am happy to move on.

Mr Sheehan: I have a question for the CCEA about the hub, the teacher webinar and the progression framework. We have heard a lot from other stakeholders about the lack of confidence in the teaching profession in delivering this curriculum. Only 60% of schools have contacted the hub, which seems quite low. Has CCEA done any investigation into why more teachers and schools have not been in contact?

Ms Radcliffe: Our hub was formally launched in 2023. That was a soft launch. We need to campaign further to ensure that all teachers are aware of the work that we are doing. The percentage figure that you quoted probably dates from around 2022. We conducted a series of webinars at which, even during action short of strike, there was an excellent turnout from teachers. They were delighted to have the opportunity to discuss some of these issues at close quarters and to be able to demonstrate how they do it in their school. Once we have the necessary resource, we will do more of that.

There are particular areas in our hub that require tailored, bespoke training, so that teachers can feel confident. We do not have a remit for training, so we will need to collaborate with the Education Authority and other parties on that. There is also a need for strong leadership in schools in order to facilitate teachers who want to take forward a very positive RSE programme. We would like to work closely with principals and school leaders to do that and to ensure that there is adequate time in the curriculum and the school timetable to do it properly. In many cases, RSE time is squeezed due to other pressures in the curriculum. We constantly hear that from teachers and practitioners. We need to collaborate with school leaders, the EA and other partners in education to ensure that a more streamlined process can be put in place to transform how RSE is delivered.

That may be a long way from your question, but we have been developing the resources and were doing so even when the Education and Training Inspectorate (ETI) was doing its evaluation. In a way, we are playing catch-up. We were developing new resources the whole time that the ETI was finding the facts from schools. Were the inspectorate to do that now, it would probably find that more teachers are using our resources and that, as a result, some of the gaps have been closed. It is an evolving process. It is totally dynamic. Year on year, we find that we have to address specific emerging social and societal issues. We become aware of those issues from the media and from teachers and practitioners who know the issues in their community and contact us. We know, therefore, that we are meeting the needs that are out there. We really value that relationship with teachers, which allows us to ensure that what we do is relevant and current. I believe that there is more marketing to be done and that key messages are required from all the partners that want us to succeed, to ensure that everybody is saying the same thing about RSE. As you are aware, there has been a lot of misinformation. That has made the path very difficult for CCEA in particular, but also for some of our other partners. We need to set that aside and look forward positively to see how we can work together to ensure that everybody understands the purpose, benefits and challenges and that they can support us in what we are trying to do.

Mr Sheehan: Thank you.

Ms Hunter: Thank you, all, very much for being here. I have three questions, but they are very short. I will throw them out to you and see where we end up. My first question is about the RSE hub. How do you monitor how much that hub is used by teachers, students and parents? Have you identified any gaps in what is on the hub? I am mindful that, in conversations that I have had with Irish-medium schools, they have often said that there are challenges with things like translation and the availability of translated resources. Have you come across that issue?

Can you make us aware of any EA youth work programmes in which RSE and some of the wider topics — tackling misogyny, challenging rape myths and addressing violence against women and girls — are discussed? Do any of those discussions also include work on drugs and alcohol and how those can impact healthy relationships? That is it from me.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): It would be good to get an answer to all three questions, so can we keep the answers short and snappy to try to make sure that they are all addressed?

Ms Martin: I will take your question on the data and who accesses our hub. We keep the hub under continual review. It is a dynamic resource. As colleagues said, it is an area of the curriculum where there are new and emerging issues. We keep it under review. Through our engagement, we have identified areas of development for this year. As for who accesses the hub, we have data analytics, but we cannot break those down into whether it is parents, teachers or students. We can do that through questionnaires and consultation. That is the only way in which we can access that information.

Ms Radcliffe: I will add to that. The fact that the hub was down was problematic because, obviously, they could not access it during that period.

Ms Hunter: Was it down for a long time?

Ms Radcliffe: It was down for six months from January to June.

Ms Hunter: That is very problematic.

Ms Radcliffe: It is back up now. We are at the beginning of a new school year. We hope to conduct a strong marketing campaign in and around what is there and open up opportunities for teachers to consult us, which they do anyway. Deidre and I receive lots of queries and questions about all of this and how to approach it. The teachers are clearly crying out for tailored support to deliver it. They do not have the competencies in the new stuff, in particular. Our forward work plan, for example, includes the active bystander approach. We have units coming out on upskirting, downblousing, cyber-flashing, sextortion, perimenopause and menopause, masculinity, the influence of positive role models and male victims of domestic abuse. We are looking at violence against women and girls, including in the SEN space where they are particularly vulnerable. That is all being prepared to go on to the site. We are in the final stages of that. We have a number of films coming out. We have worked with Cinemagic to produce short films on period dignity and consent. We find that having young people who are in that domain in those films is a very effective way to get points across quickly to young people.

I mentioned the interconnectedness. I am responsible for the Irish medium in CCEA. We have a programme of translation development. We have a list of priorities that we agreed with Coláiste Feirste and Gaelcholáiste Dhoire, and we are gradually working our way through that. All the new stuff is immediately translated and put up as soon as possible. We have taken on board the feedback from some of our webinars. Irish-medium teachers need, for example, a glossary of terms to go with some of these things. We are conscious of that. Once again, we are limited in resource. We have a translation unit that covers all our translation services; that is where it is. We are committed to providing exactly the same for the Irish medium.

Ms Hunter: Right now, is there anything translated into Irish on the hub?

Ms Radcliffe: Yes, you will find it on our site.

Ms Hunter: OK. That is great. Thank you.

Mr Unsworth: I will pick up on the youth work query. Yes, it very much features in the youth work curriculum. EA's youth service has resources and support available to youth workers. I do not have that detail here today, but I will get it from colleagues and have it sent back through the Clerk.

Ms Martin: May I add to that? Our progression framework includes post-16, and that resource is accessed by youth groups also.

Ms Coffey: Our resources are accessed by youth groups and used by the Ulster University healthy young adult relationships (HYAR) programme. It has looked at that in the progression framework and how it can go over into youth work.

Ms Hunter: Thank you very much.

Mrs Mason: Thanks very much for the information today. I want to go back briefly to something that the Chair mentioned about the support given to boards of governors. To be honest, your answer that the support is very limited is quite concerning, especially given that the departmental officials who were in before you gave a quite different answer and said that support would be given to boards of governors. I want to explore that more. What is the future? What is the plan to start giving that support? I understand the issues around resources and things like that. I get that, but I find it quite concerning.

The other thing was to get your view on the Human Rights Commission's report that we received. There was some discussion around external providers. What is your view on that, and how does it link in with the curriculum that you have set, the RSE hub and stuff?

Finally, you mentioned — I wrote it down — that, at the minute, teachers:

Again, that is a fundamental issue. There is a difference between a teacher being given a resource and their having the confidence to deliver it. What is your view on how we can give teachers confidence rather than just the resources?

Mr Unsworth: I will pick up on the point about governors. All I can say is that I have oversight of governor training provision at the Education Authority, and, with a particular focus on RSE, it is very limited at this stage. Do I agree that there needs to be more? Yes, 100%. That is what we hear from governors who are in contact with us. It is not the only area of their responsibility about which they have concerns. Their concerns are wide-ranging, and governors ask for training and advice on many other issues, but our resource is limited. That is as much as I can say at this stage.

Ms Martin: The use of external advisors is a policy decision, and DE provides advice on that. We think that their use can enhance the delivery of RSE, but we do not feel that it can replace effective RSE, because effective RSE should be delivered across the curriculum and embedded in that curriculum delivery. We hear from young people that they do not feel that delivery from a one-off provider is effective. While it can be a very useful tool and of high quality, it is no substitute for a wider and more embedded approach to the delivery of RSE.

Ms Radcliffe: I will add this: these are big themes and concepts. Having a one-off intervention from an external provider can provide basic facts, but we think that the best way to deliver RSE is in a safe space in which you have confidence in and are familiar with the person delivering it, and you can speak freely and all of that. We recommend that schools consult the external provider if they are going to go down that route. Often, schools can do a combination. They could have an external provider and a follow-up lesson to clarify things and open up the discussion. The best RSE, we feel, is delivered by teachers who know the young people and children in front of them and the context in which they are working.

That said, we have engaged with many training providers, and we have included their links on our website. Schools that want to avail themselves of specific training can do so. Once again, there is a disclaimer, because we cannot be everywhere to control the quality, but there are very reputable providers that have young people's best interests at heart. They can certainly provide training in some of the areas in which teachers do not have the competence.

When I referred to teacher competence, I was referring to the recent legislation on upskirting, downblousing and cyber-flashing, all of which is new — it came in last November. People will have heard about it on the news, but they may not know the details of the legislation. Our lesson plans are designed to bring them up to speed on the legislation. The sharing of images is an area in which young people are vulnerable these days. We have done a lot of work to ensure that they understand how the law applies online and in person and how to keep their behaviour within the law. It is a mountain to climb, because every time that we think we have finished, a new concept comes in, and we have to deal with it.

Alongside RSE, we have done an audit of our online safety site. We are putting in place many new resources, including some on child sexual exploitation. We are hosting the PSNI resources on grooming and so on. We are trying to bring it together. The preventative curriculum is all-important. It is an umbrella category, if you like, for our website to deal with. We have the RSE hub and the framework, and online safety is treated separately. We will bring it all together to show the interconnections, in life and in the curriculum, where there are opportunities for teaching and learning for schools. It is to show young people that online behaviour goes right across their whole life. Being online is not just a behaviour in a bedroom; it impacts on the kind of person they become.

Those are the points that we really want to get across. I hope that that answers your question.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): I will draw that one to a close there. Apologies for cutting some of this short. I know that, from a CCEA perspective, there is an awful lot that you want to bring here. There is just the matter of our timescale. I ask that, for the last couple of enquiries, you really try to keep the answers focused. I know that that is difficult, because you have a lot that you want to share.

Mr Butler: I will keep mine short. There have been a lot of really good questions.

This is technical. Is abstinence part of the consent element of the curriculum? Is the legality of sex under 16 years of age — there being no such thing as consensual sex below the age of 16, even if someone commits to it — covered? I am conscious that the issue of the criminal age of responsibility will come forward in this mandate, hopefully. It is very low. It is 10 years of age. Is sex between two under-16s, even if it is consensual, covered in every respect?

Ms Coffey: The short answer is yes —

Mr Butler: Good.

Ms Coffey: — to all of that. We cover consent from Foundation Stage right up. Obviously, at that stage, consent is simply, "Am I allowed to hug you?", being in somebody else's space and all that. That goes right up to sexual consent. The law on sexual consent is visited and revisited to consolidate that learning.

We look at abstinence through contraception and the new resources —.

Mr Butler: It is difficult because, in that space, you are — I am not against it, by the way; I am just saying — teaching about something that is illegal. I am thinking, from a firefighter's perspective, that we teach people not to start fires and to stay away, but we do not teach people how to light a fire safely.

Ms Coffey: No.

Mr Butler: Do you know what I mean? Is it just that we have accepted, as a society, that it is illegal, but will do anyway?

Ms Coffey: There is an exploration in all of those resources. Basically, they look at the implications of abstinence versus, maybe, contraception, because there is research that shows that abstinence-only approaches are not effective. You need to look at it in the round, basically, and give young people an opportunity to explore that in a safe environment.

Mr Butler: OK. Thank you.

Ms Radcliffe: When we talk to young people — I think that everybody thinks that they are talking about sex all the time — we find that most of them are interested in relationships and how to talk to someone of the opposite sex. That is how basic it is: they do not know how to talk to each other.

Mr Butler: It was always a problem, to be fair. It is not new, that one. [Laughter.]

Ms Radcliffe: That is the way it is.

On abstinence, we met stakeholders at milestones along the way and looked at that in depth. The thinking is that every child, should they be a Christian child or a Muslim child — no matter what cultural background they bring to the group — should feel comfortable in a classroom where we are discussing consent. We have talked about respect, building the sense of self, how they value themselves and what they can bring: their opinions, attitudes and all that. That is the whole purpose of the curriculum, as opposed to some basic sex education. We do not just give them sex education and put them out there; it is about nurturing and developing the individual, helping them to develop their own attitudes and values, see what they think and hear other views. You know what? It does not do any harm to open their minds to that. We are not telling everybody to go out and have sex. That is not the case. That is part of the issue with misinformation. All that we are doing is presenting an opportunity to explore.

Mrs Guy: Thank you for your presentation. You gave a really good sense of the scope and breadth of this. Many people seem to narrow in on just a few areas. You have done a really good job of explaining and articulating that. The three buzzwords across all this have been: "opt-out", "ethos" and "confidence". We have talked about the confidence of teachers to deliver the curriculum, but what about teachers who are just uncomfortable or who disagree with how their school teaches RSE? Is there support for them in that context? On the ethos point, is there ever a conflict or an undermining of the teaching of scientifically accurate material in the context of the ethos in some schools? I had another question, but I think that you have answered it, so, in the interest of the Chair's sanity, I will leave it there.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): I appreciate it.

Ms Martin: On teacher confidence and competence, there will be new teachers who are not experienced in teaching these matters. Even those who are experienced, as emerging issues come up, may not feel that they have the knowledge, never mind the competence, to be able to explore and facilitate the conversation. For a teacher delivering RSE, it is a case of ongoing professional learning. We have a role in that in the guidance, resources and progression framework that we provide to support the schools so that they can feel more confident to deliver it.

Mrs Guy: I meant more that a teacher may not feel that the way in which their school advocates teaching RSE is not appropriate or that it is not following the curriculum properly, or there may be an ethos clash between that individual and the school. Is there support for teachers then?

Ms Radcliffe: That, I think, is where I leadership comes in.

Mr Unsworth: It would probably be more a matter for the employers. It is a very difficult and very real issue.

Ms Radcliffe: We acknowledge that the ethos in every school is different, and we understand that schools have the right to develop their own policy in consultation with parents, boards of governors, principals and teachers. We have encountered this. We have attended many conferences where we have heard the experiences of some teachers who felt one way or the other about the particular ethos, but it is just not within CCEA's gift to be able to address those issues. We have to take an equality-based, value-based approach to all of this. We have developed generic guidance, and we have advised teachers to look at the resources in the context of their cohort of pupils and decide what is appropriate and what is not for them. We are not saying that they must. Whilst there is a statutory curriculum, none of our resources are mandatory. They are there to support. If they do not like them, they can look elsewhere, and, hopefully, they will find what they need. I question and do not understand why any teacher or anyone in today's changing world, where there is so much evidence of young people being presented with very difficult experiences of grooming, online abuse, bullying and expectations of all kinds, would think that it is a good idea not to provide such education. There are different ways of doing it, and, without disrespecting anyone, I think that it is important that people focus in on the world in which we live now and be realistic.

You mentioned consent and legislation. You are right that it is not legal to have sex under 16, but we have no control over whether or not people do so. We have to provide safe information that allows people to protect themselves in every situation going forward.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Cheryl, you indicated that you have a question.

Ms Brownlee: Really quickly. Is that OK?

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Yes. We are definitely committed to a 5.00 pm cut-off. There is a big bank of correspondence to get through, so I ask everybody to keep questions and answers really short so that we can get through the rest of the business and hear the answers for the inquiry.

Ms Brownlee: I will be very quick. A letter sent to principals from Raymond Caldwell in the Department of Education noted:

He then details that. Has the information that is on the RSE hub for primary schools always been there and always been taught. Is there no change to that?

Ms Martin: There is no change to that. The Secretary of State's changes were specifically to Key Stage 3 and Key Stage 4 and in relation to access to abortion and prevention of early pregnancy. That is all. It does not change the minimum RSE content for primary, and it does not change the resources that we have for other topic areas for primary or post-primary. That letter is very specific.

Ms Brownlee: So, that information was always there and available.

Ms Martin: Yes.

Ms Brownlee: I have been on the hub and looked at what is there. There is a lot. It is very overwhelming. Is there any way in which that could be a place for parents to go to actually see it? We talk about misinformation. Parents want to know exactly what could be taught. If that is the case, is there a piece of work that could be done to say, "Look, this is where this sits at the moment. This has the potential to be taught", so that parents can look at that and feel comfortable, or, if they do not feel comfortable, have a choice to feed into further engagement?

Ms Radcliffe: I do not think so, because the hub is a generic site and it is self-selecting: you can use it if you want to. If the parents want to know what is being taught, they should ask the school for information about its RSE programme and what its policy is. Ideally, they should be feeding into that. There should not be any grey areas where the parent is not clear about what is being taught. However, it is definitely not CCEA's remit to insist that a particular thing be used. We do not do that. We provide resources to support teaching and learning, and, beyond that, it is the role of the professionals in schools — the teachers and the school leaders — and the parents who are investing in that education to seek information on that. That was one of the issues about misinformation: it blurred the roles and responsibilities of all.

Ms Coffey: We provided some guidance for parents to Parentkind, and that is on the Parentkind website. It is just an overview of RSE, what is involved and some links to materials that we provide.

Ms Brownlee: I appreciate that. Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): I call David Brooks. We have only one minute left.

Mr Brooks: This is more of a comment on what you said rather than a question. There are those who have concerns about RSE and so on. I am not sure exactly what specific misinformation has caused the annoyance, but RSE is being packaged alongside subjects that, across the world, are traditionally quite controversial. That is what causes people to be concerned. You hear people expressing concerns about RSE, but, actually, it is about limited elements of that. There may be individuals who are against all of it, but, in general, I do not think that there is huge opposition to kids being taught skills that could protect them online or anything like that. However, there are specific elements of this that will naturally cause some disagreement across political spheres and in society. That is the concern that is being expressed. I have not talked to many people who are opposed to RSE in its entirety. They might talk about RSE, but it is about very limited elements of it. It is not about the things that are common sense and that you would expect children to be taught anyway. It is important to clarify that.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): That is fine.

Ms Martin: That is the nub of it really, because there are so many conflicting views.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Unfortunately, I will have to draw a line at this point. There is so much that we could talk about. Given the breadth of resources that are there, we could have talked about it all afternoon. Apologies if I had to cut any of your contributions short. I really appreciate your presenting this afternoon. Thank you.