Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Good morning. Welcome to the Committee. I am very excited to see Clyde. I think that I met Clyde before at another event. No offence to the rest who have joined us today, but Clyde has already become one of my favourite attendees at the Committee meetings so far. Clyde is up there.

We welcome June Best and Clyde the guide dog. June is vice-chair of the Inclusive Mobility and Transport Advisory Committee (IMTAC). Michael Lorimer is secretary, and Dermot Devlin is an IMTAC member and convener of the people, streets and places working group. You are very welcome to the Committee. Today's evidence will be reported by Hansard.

You have provided some written evidence to the Committee, and we thank you for that. I will give you a brief five to 10 minutes to introduce yourselves and talk about the issues relating to taxi provision. I am keen to come to members' questions as well, so I will let you give us your brief opening statement.

Ms June Best (Inclusive Mobility and Transport Advisory Committee): I cannot see anybody, so do you mind doing introductions around the table, please?

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Yes, absolutely. We will start on my right.

Mr Boylan: I am Cathal Boylan, Sinn Féin MLA for Newry and Armagh.

Mr McReynolds: I am Peter McReynolds, Alliance MLA for East Belfast.

Mr McMurray: I am Andrew McMurray, Alliance MLA for South Down.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): I am Deborah Erskine, Chair of the Committee.

Mr Dunne: I am Stephen Dunne, DUP MLA for North Down.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): That is everybody in the room, and joining us on screen is Danny Baker, who is also a member of the Committee. Hopefully, that will help, June.

Ms Best: Thank you all very much for giving us the opportunity to come today and give you some facts about taxis. Taxis are really important for deaf, disabled and older people on many counts. It is a personal, door-to-door service. It is also convenient because there may be no other public transport available when you have to go to appointments or employment.

Transport covers every aspect of our lives, whether it is social, work, leisure, education or health. We all need transport. We do not work in isolation. Transport is so important for everyone. Taxis are really important for disabled people for the reasons I mentioned, such as time and place. Maybe, there is no other connectivity to the big transport links for the bus or train. Everybody is aware of the opening of the new Grand Central Station, although it has its problems, and we will be sorting that out. The biggie with that is the taxis, because they are extremely important for the inclusion of disabled people and older people.

As well as that, the Taxis Act (Northern Ireland) 2008 was to look at and make taxi services more available and inclusive for disabled people, deaf people and older people. However, the Taxis Act, which was meant to improve services did not do that in many ways. Not only had we kickback back from the taxi drivers, who were so concerned about the fact that there were licensing rules for taxi vehicles and, importantly, wheelchair-accessible vehicles (WAVs), there was more than that, but I will not go into everything today, as Michael and Dermot will speak shortly.

The other thing is that things have got worse. The pandemic was absolutely terrible for all of us, but many people who were deaf, disabled or older could not access taxis because of the limited services. The result of that was that many taxi firms, particularly in rural areas where I am from, went out of business or decided to retire after COVID. So much has been lost as regards, if you like, the will of taxi drivers and attitudes of taxi drivers, and the rising cost of living has exacerbated that. Things have been dire, and that has meant that, for a lot of people who are dependent on taxis — taxis are part of that inclusive travel system for connectivity — it is not happening. Things have got worse with the cost of living, as we all know. It does not matter whether it is the city areas or rural areas. Dermot will talk about a bit about rural areas as well.

It is deflating to know that some people cannot get wheelchair-accessible vehicles to go about their day-to-day business. It is all about having individual choices like everybody else. It just seems that we need to look at how we can change, with government, that lack of transport that is pivotal for our everyday lives.

I will hand over to Dermot now.

Mr Dermot Devlin (Inclusive Mobility and Transport Advisory Committee): Thank you, June. I am from a rural area, the Fermanagh and Omagh District Council area. I will highlight some of the issues that deaf, disabled and older people face when trying to get accessible taxis.

As June said a short while ago, there are not as many taxis on the roads now as there were, and that is due to the impact of COVID and other factors, such as drivers coming to retirement age and not enough people to replace them, which causes issues that Michael will highlight later. It leaves me, as a disabled person, having to rely on other people, on public transport, which does not work, particularly in rural areas, and family members, and you have to take their time into account as well. It is difficult.

As June said, having an accessible taxi — I need a wheelchair-accessible vehicle — is important for connecting us to public transport and to hospitals.

It is also important to connect us to a social life. Disabled people have social lives, but that seems to be forgotten about. A lot of us do not get taxis after 6.00 pm. What is the reason for that? It is because there are no drivers. Do they think that disabled people do not have social lives? Speaking as a disabled person, I have not had a good a night out in my area in nine months.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Neither have I, Dermot. [Laughter.]

Mr Devlin: If I wanted a night out, and I am relying on a taxi, I would have to go elsewhere — to Belfast, for example. Even that creates difficulties. I was in Belfast recently. I wanted to pre-book a taxi, because, when you are disabled, you do not have the luxury of being spontaneous and saying, "I want to get a bus now," or, "I want to get a taxi now". I wanted to pre-book a taxi, so I went on to two taxi companies' websites to do that. There was a list of cars — everything you might need — but nothing about accessibility. I contacted them to say that there was nothing about accessibility, and the person on the phone said, "We took that off the website. You have to do that over the phone". That was frustrating.

I tried to book four weeks in advance to get a taxi. At the end of that sort of phone call, I like to reiterate everything that I have said, so that they know what I have booked. He had misheard what I said at the start, however, and did not realise that I am a wheelchair user. He got a wee bit frustrated that I did not mention that, even though I had said that I was. He told me that wheelchair users can only book two days in advance, unlike non-disabled people, who can book so much further in advance. Even then, it is so difficult to get a taxi. Every disabled person knows that we have a small window in which to book, so we all rush. I could not get a taxi. I had to look around to find one that was independent and could take me on my run, but even the main ones said, "We don't do it after this time", because the perception is that disabled people do not have social lives.

As I said at the beginning, I am from a rural part of the country, the Fermanagh and Omagh district. Deborah, you are from there as well, so you know what it is like to try to get a taxi there. It is difficult, particularly when you live outside the main towns of Enniskillen and Omagh. I am from Greencastle, and it is incredibly difficult to get one to come out that distance, particularly if you are a wheelchair user, because there are so few taxis on the ground, and the companies that offer accessible taxis are pre-booked for hospital runs. That is totally acceptable, because those are the runs that they should do, but it highlights the fact that there is a gap in the provision of taxis in rural areas. They are so busy taking disabled people and older people to the hospitals that they cannot do other runs to take people to work, to the shops or to visit family and friends. That is the great issue that I have with taxis in rural areas.

Someone might say, "Why don't you take public transport?", but, if you have a friend who lives in a completely rural area, you might get dropped off somewhere from where you have a mile or two's walk to get to them. In situations like that taxis are increasingly important for deaf and disabled people. Without that service, we are consigned to our own homes and resigned to doing things such as shopping online. We want to support the local economy but cannot do that. We cannot get out to access the local economy; we have to stay at home and shop on sites such as Amazon, which is something that I would rather not do.

Those are some of the big issues with rural transport, wheelchair-accessible taxis and stuff like that. We also need to look at the fact that, because we are wheelchair users, we seem to be penalised on top of not being able to get a taxi. When we do get a taxi, we seem to be charged more because it takes more time to get us into the vehicle and secure us in that vehicle. The fact that we are disabled makes it incredibly difficult to get a taxi, and then, when we do, there is the extra financial burden of going somewhere. That may be time and a half or whatever, depending on what taxi company you use and whether you have built up a good relationship with them. Disabled people are living in times of austerity and do not have the luxury of spending here, there and everywhere if we cannot get public transport. We rely on taxis, and we spend more than we should on that. That is the big issue that I have as a disabled person who is a wheelchair user and needs but cannot use taxi services, particularly in rural areas.

I will hand you back to June.

Ms Best: I will just back up what Dermot said about refusals. As you know, I am a guide dog owner. I have had many experiences, as have other assistance dog owners, of having refusals, even though the Taxis Act covered the fact that it should be illegal to refuse. I know of no prosecutions even though I have looked extensively for them.

I moved out of a rural area into a village for the simple reason that I was spending an absolute fortune on taxi fares. No matter where I wanted to go, I had to get to the train station. There were school buses during the day, but that was it: one there and one back. I needed the taxis, but they were not available. Taxis take contracts — airport runs, school runs and lots more. Because of the cost-of-living crisis, taxi drivers are trying to make a living, and there are fewer of them, which means that they are all trying to get regular money through contracts. That means that I cannot get to an appointment at 2.30 pm at, say, the Lagan Valley Hospital for the simple reason that the taxis are out bringing children home from school. That is also a problem.

I will tell you about an experience that I had with taxis. A taxi driver was called, and he came to pick me up from a conference that I was at in Belfast, and, I have to be honest, I have never been so affronted. First, he was not going to take the dog. I pointed out that he could not refuse the dog except on medical grounds. When he realised that he would have to take the dog, he said, "Stay there a minute", went to the boot of the car and brought out a really old piece of curtain-like material. I thought that he was going to put it on the floor, but he put it on the seat as well, for me to wrap it around myself and the dog. That is not acceptable. I explained the incident to the company, which apologised and told me that the driver would get in touch with me, but that did not happen. There is nobody policing that or taking it any further.

There have been all sorts of incidents like that. For example, I ordered a taxi to pick me up at Lisburn leisure centre. The friend I was with said that, when I came outside, the driver of the taxi that had been ordered took one look at me and the dog and whizzed away. The driver had been slowing down to pick me up but put the foot on the accelerator. That stops me doing things that I like doing, and there are many people like me. It stops us doing things that we would like to do. There is no direct transport from where I was living in the country into Lisburn, so I needed that taxi.

It is just sad that there are fewer taxis. The cost of living is making things worse. The cost of fuel is putting the prices up, and the taxi companies are struggling as well, from their point of view.

I will hand over to Michael, because I could go on and on. I could write a book about it.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Thank you, June. This is Deborah speaking. From the Committee's perspective, we are certainly really keen to unpack some of those issues.

Michael, can you briefly point us further?

Mr Michael Lorimer (Inclusive Mobility and Transport Advisory Committee): Members will have a copy of the paper that we republished last year. We published it first in 2008, following the Taxis Act being passed. As June said, there are clearly issues with how the Taxis Act has been implemented. Lots of the regulations were not introduced until eight years after the legislation was passed, when the taxi industry had significantly changed. For instance, we know that one of the key aims of the Taxis Act was to increase the provision of wheelchair-accessible vehicles. That has clearly not worked. Other factors such as COVID and the cost of living are involved in that. We suggest, for instance, that we strengthen regulation to link wheelchair-accessible provision to operator licensing rather than to ranks. We suggest that disabled people's rights should be strengthened regarding the refusal of people with assistance dogs and regarding wheelchair users. There is legislation that enables all of that to happen.

We also suggest that we support the taxi industry because, in a lot of cases, we are talking about individual drivers or small companies, and we have to recognise that there is a financial element to this and we do not, as a Government, offer the taxi trade much in the way of subsidy or support. There is a range of things that we could do to support the industry to provide more accessible services, including direct subsidy to buy accessible vehicles, for instance.

We should also look at involving the taxi trade in the wider provision of services that government runs. For instance, we have the rural transport fund and programmes such as the transport programme for people with disabilities. What role could taxis play in delivering those services? There has been a lot of coverage recently in the media around how much money the health service spends on taxis. What are we asking for in return for that money? Surely, in such areas as contracting, we can expect higher standards from the taxi trade in return for the money that government already invests in it. Those are some of the ideas that are coming through.

Before the pandemic, we did a piece of work with the Department on a survey of older and disabled people, and nearly 1,000 people responded to it. The issue of taxis is a huge one for older and disabled people. We have never seen the results of that survey. OK, things were different in 2018, but it would have given us a clear picture of how disabled people were finding things. The headline that was coming across was that things had got worse since the passage of the regulations that were introduced in 2016.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Thank you. We really appreciate that. The aspect of the human cost has been well put across today in relation to how important having taxi provision is for you and the difficulties that you have even if you get a taxi. June, you described a very upsetting incident that happened to you. The sad reality is that that is not unique, and the Committee wants to send out a message today — I assume that there will be people who will be tuned in to the Committee meeting today — and in our conversations going forward that decent humanity can be put across to people about how they act and interact with members of the public.

We want to come to some questions specifically on the regulations. I want to scope out further information on the proposal to link the provision of wheelchair-accessible taxis to operator licensing. What proportion should be wheelchair-accessible taxis? Should that be targeted to specific areas? Dermot, you talked about rural areas, and we know very well what those are like. You know about that especially. Can you give a bit more information on numbers and what proportions are needed?

Ms Best: I will hand that over to you, Michael.

Mr Lorimer: Anything like this has to be linked to the size of the operation. We are largely talking in terms of the main benefits being in urban areas where the large taxi companies operate. That leaves us with the question of how we improve rural access to taxis. That is probably where we are more focused on the subsidy element and government supporting rural taxi companies. It is complicated, and I know that some people around the table have been involved in those conversations for many years. I am not looking at Cathal in particular. [Laughter.]

The way in which operations are set up is complicated as regards drivers' employment status and things like that. Certainly, the larger Belfast firms should be required to provide a certain number of wheelchair-accessible taxis as part of their operator licensing. Then, there would be a sliding scale in terms of various operations. That leaves the question hanging about how we do that with small rural operators that are run by one person or a small number of drivers.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): What proportion of wheelchair-accessible taxis are you asking for in urban areas?

Mr Lorimer: It is difficult to say because you have to have a clear idea of the size of fleets and things like that. We could look at developing something that means that the operator provides a level of service that disabled people can rely on. Currently, they cannot do that: as Dermot said, it is a matter of phoning and being told that no service is available. We know that there are vehicles out there, but they are never available when wheelchair users need them.

The other thing that we need to tackle is the public hire situation in Belfast — the class A and class B situation. There are serious issues with accessibility and availability of those vehicles too. We had a case a couple of years ago when a wheelchair-user visitor to Belfast was refused by every black cab driver whom he approached. There are issues there as well that need to be addressed. On paper, in Belfast, there are an awful lot of accessible vehicles, but they are never available when disabled people need them.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): When it comes to class B licences and the estimated need to meet demand, how does Northern Ireland compare with other jurisdictions? Where is that being done well? Where can we find best practice?

Mr Lorimer: We are part of a group. We have a liaison committee that works across the UK with our advisory bodies from Scotland, England, and Wales. In a sense, there is nowhere where things are being done particularly well. Some of the issues that we face are being faced by disabled people across the country. Obviously, there are places that have a better provision of an accessible — to use an old term — public hire fleet. If you are in London, you will have more access to wheelchair-accessible vehicles. Some of the major cities such as Manchester and Edinburgh have modern, accessible black cab fleets. That is not to say that there are not issues with those in terms of cost etc, but they tend to be more easily available than the vehicles that we have here.

Ms Best: Companies are trying out things like vouchers for deaf and disabled people. What is the other one, Michael?

Mr Lorimer: When it comes to subsidies, the local authority in London, for example, has a taxi card scheme that offers subsidised trips in wheelchair-accessible vehicles. That is another way in which government could encourage taxi companies to invest in accessible services.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Thank you.

You will hear the door opening and closing. That is because some of our Hansard staff are changing position when we are in the midst of our evidence session. That is why you will hear the door opening and closing.

Before I come to other members, I want to scope out taxi provision for children and young people in education and your views on that. Obviously, they will need accessible taxi provision. I want to scope out how difficult it is to access taxi provision in the morning and evening at school pick-up and drop-off times. No doubt your members have to get to jobs. It is not about a hierarchy. I imagine that that creates pressure on the system.

Ms Best: Absolutely. I am from an education background. We have created in Northern Ireland and elsewhere a reliance on getting children who are deaf or disabled to school. That isolates them. What was the amount of money in our report, Michael? We have written a report and an updated report. I think that millions have been spent on taxi travel. I will need to check that.

Of course there could be, if you like, inclusion on the buses that are out there. As I say, taxis take contracts for schools and so forth. That means that you cannot get out and about at all during the school run, as I can tell you from bitter experience. Taxis are used. I know that parents in the rural area in which I live got together to hire a taxi to bring a few children to school together, because it seemed nonsensical that one member of the family who was deaf or disabled or had an impairment or difficulties was taken to school in a taxi but the rest of the family had to wait for the school bus. That is what we have here. I do not know how extensive it is. Maybe we could look at that.

Combining transport was looked at. It is all part of what I call the "inclusive transport system". Taxis are really important in that. I hope that I have answered your question.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Thank you very much. I will come to members, whom I will introduce. We have Cathal first.

Mr Boylan: I am Cathal Boylan, a Sinn Féin MLA for Newry and Armagh. You are welcome. Thanks very much. Dermot, if I had known that you had not had a night out, I would have invited you up to Armagh to celebrate us winning the Sam Maguire. [Laughter.]

We could have sent the county bus.

Michael, you mentioned that I have been at this for a long time. The Act was about operator licensing and everything else. I am not going to rehash the story. I am slightly disappointed, however. There were good intentions behind it in wanting to bring things forward.

Before I get to a couple of questions, I want to look at the crux of what we, as a Committee, need to do. We try to facilitate as best we can. COVID has played a big part across industry, not just the taxi industry. Being a rural representative, I have seen changes. You rely on personal friends and people who understand the situation in each area.

I looked at some of the stuff you put in. I know that the Chair asked about B class taxis. You talked about strengthening the regulations. However, before we go to that, my point is that, although you are a strong organisation, this will take a conversation across the board with other Departments — you need to go to health appointments, or you need to go elsewhere. You talked about the night-time economy. Maybe there need to be broader conversations with chambers of commerce or local authorities if we are serious about tackling how we go forward. Specifically for us, you spoke about strengthening the regulations. Maybe it is about bringing in new regulations or strengthening what is in the legislation. What are your views on that? What is the thinking behind saying that we should strengthen the legislation or the regulations?

Mr Lorimer: The issue, Cathal, is that, even before the pandemic, we were getting the feedback from disabled people that things had not improved; in fact, they were going backwards. It would be good to have that research in the public domain so that we could see it. It is a snapshot in time. It told us that the Department had placed a lot of eggs in the basket in linking WAV provision to rank provision and that, clearly, that was not working. Even back then, we were pushing the Department to look at that again.

There are powers contained in the Taxis Act and the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 that the Department can use to strengthen regulations. They are not a magic wand. They will not solve everything, but it is, basically, about strengthening the right of disabled people to have access to the vehicle that suits them best. There is the power in the Taxis Act to link the WAV provision to operator licensing in addition to the link to rank. We would be keen for the Department to look at that. It will probably be unpopular with the taxi trade. We have had that issue throughout, as you know.

We sympathise with the fact that the taxi trade is not a homogenous group; there are lots of elements in it. We have to respect the fact that there will be different solutions for different areas. However, we need to focus on how we can increase the number of WAVs that are available to people. Regulation is one way; it is not the only way. We say clearly that government needs to do more to support the industry financially to improve accessibility.

Mr Boylan: I appreciate that, and I make no apology for saying this: we have a responsibility to facilitate everybody, and, when we bring in regulations, those regulations should facilitate everyone. I appreciate that those may be difficult conversations, but you are here to talk to us. As legislators, we have a responsibility to have a conversation about that. You have heard the expression — I used it this morning — about the carrot-and-stick approach. There is an element of both, because there also needs to be an enforcement side to it.

June, you mentioned that, during your problems, you did not get an opportunity to respond or anything else; the enforcement side of things was not there. I foresee in the distance, as we go forward, some of the issues being a new challenge for us. As I said, most of the questions have been asked, and most of the conversations that we have had already are based on some of the questions that we have had.

Speaking for myself and as a member of the Committee, we certainly have no issue with bringing forward your conversations. There are a few things that you have suggested there. If it is something that we need to look at — there will be people listening in -— we will have to bring everybody in around the table again and have that conversation. So be it.

I heard on the radio this morning about the new challenges over in the centre that they are having across the road behind the new station. A few things have raised their heads there recently, so I am prepared to have the conversation.

That was just a bit of commentary. Thank you very much for coming in and presenting. We have your written paper. The Committee will chat and talk to the Chair and see what way we are prepared to go. Thank you for your evidence.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Thank you, Cathal. I now introduce Andrew.

Mr McMurray: Hello, I am Andrew McMurray, Alliance MLA. I have been reading through some of the notes on the back of what you have said. Thank you for sharing, because I appreciate that you were not sharing nice, pleasant experiences, unfortunately.

One point is about ensuring that inclusive and accessible complaints mechanisms are available. Who would regulate that? Who would administer that best? Do you see that as being something for the taxi operators? Is there a taxi operators' governing body? Given the fact that DFI issues the licences, would you expect DFI to manage it?

I have another question, but if you want —.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): We will take that question first, if that is OK.

Mr Lorimer: Ultimately, the Department is responsible. It issues the licence, and complaints should, ultimately, land with the Department. I suppose, however, that, in every complaint process, the companies themselves should have a clear and transparent complaint process that people can use, and, if there is no resolution, the Department should have a much more enhanced complaint-handling role than it does now.

Mr McMurray: I am glad that you said that.

Mr Lorimer: "Proactive" rather than "enhanced", because it has the powers at the minute to do it, but it is difficult to use.

Ms Best: An awful lot of people have had bad experiences, refusals etc. I am only one of them. It is really worrying that, when we have complaints, we phone the taxi company — blah-blah — and nothing happens. That is where we need a clear system, whether it is a refusal for guide dogs and you do that yourself or you go back to Guide Dogs to see how many refusals they have had or for hearing dogs for the deaf and emotional support dogs. There are quite a lot. Even when we were coming in today, it was quite funny. This is just an anecdote, but, when we were coming in today, the security guy at the gate said, "Oh, you've a dog in the back of the car. You can't take that into Stormont." I said, "He's a guide dog."

Mr McMurray: Poor Clyde. How could you refuse Clyde? [Laughter.]

Mr Boylan: Ask the next question of Clyde, Andrew, just in case.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): I find it hard, watching him there.

Mr McMurray: I see the wee nose coming up at the table, but I am a dog person, so that is all right.

At what stage does education of the taxi bodies play a part? I drove minibuses in my previous job, and there was a pile of continuing professional development (CPD) things. Is this subject brought up in CPDs? Should it be?

Mr Lorimer: We have been involved in developing training programmes alongside the Department. We have also run awareness campaigns regarding the law, particularly around the carriage of assistance dogs. The law has been in place for 20-odd years, but we have not had any prosecutions, which tells its own story. If there is legislation that makes it unlawful to do something but there is no ultimate sanction, the legislation is not really worth the paper it is written on.

We have run the campaigns and put together training courses. The training courses cover all the issues. Some drivers find the training a burden, but they have to do it. They have to do an element that includes disability awareness equality training. The provision is there. We have done that work, and the messages have gone out to people in the trade, but we are still coming up against those issues around discrimination. That is why we say, "Let's use things like the DDA to the maximum".

Mr McMurray: Thank you.

Mr McReynolds: Thank you, everybody, for coming in. I am Peter McReynolds, Alliance MLA for East Belfast.

I have two queries. First, what has engagement been like with the taxi lobby on a number of the points that you have raised today? They were in with us a number of months ago, and they are experiencing challenges. Has there been much engagement with them directly, and how has that been?

Mr Lorimer: Yes, there has been engagement. We have met quite a few representatives from different parts of the taxi trade. Again, I want to be clear that there is not one voice in the taxi trade here. That is not unusual, but it makes life more difficult because there are different opinions. We have had the conversation with all, and our key message is that we want to work with the folk from the taxi trade, but there needs to be an understanding that, from our perspective, we need to see positive change that means that disabled people have the same access to services as others. That will mean some difficult issues for the taxi trade to deal with.

The other thing that we say in our paper is that the taxi trade needs support. It is not fair to expect them simply to invest in hugely expensive vehicles without any expectation of getting a return on that investment. Therefore, there is a need for government to look again at how we can support the taxi trade to respond to what we want.

It cannot be done just with regulation and making it harder, because people will drift away from providing the service. It has been hard enough. The pandemic and the cost-of-living crisis — you have heard it from the trade, as have we — have driven people away from working in the taxi trade. That is making it worse for everyone, but particularly for deaf and disabled people trying to access services.

Mr McReynolds: Secondly, and lastly, we will have the Minister before the Committee next week. Is there anything that you would like us to raise with him directly that he could take back to his officials?

Ms Best: It will be an amazing opportunity to have the points put to him that we are putting across today. We ask for legislation to make wheelchair-accessible vehicles mandatory. You cannot have refusals for guide dogs, so it is about saying that you cannot refuse a wheelchair on your vehicle, as long as it is a WAV. Of course, WAVs are expensive. It is about incentives such as the voucher card or the other cards, but it is really up to the Department and the Government.

Mr Lorimer: We met the Minister as well. We will, hopefully, meet him again shortly about our annual report. Taxis have been top of our priority list for about 10 years. The Minister is well aware of that. We are aware as well that we are in a shortened mandate, so it is about what can be done realistically in it. It is really about starting those discussions again. The taxi trade is not happy. We are not happy. How can we start those discussions again about how we tackle the issues? Bearing in mind the points that I have made, that is about a conversation between all of us, not just simply our having a position. We need to start that conversation again. If the Minister were to restart the discussions between all the key stakeholders, that would be a real step forward.

Mr Dunne: Thanks, folks, for your excellent presentation and for coming in. I commend you on your campaign work as well. Michael, it is good to put a face to a name. You have sent many emails over many years. I have seen your name for quite a while, so it is good to connect with you properly.

We have touched on quite a lot of the issues around taxis, so I will not rehearse them. I very much appreciate the challenges, and it was good to hear about them from you. This is a separate broader issue that would probably take another hour to discuss, but you touched briefly on public transport and your connections and engagements with Translink. Obviously, there has been a lot of investment in the new station, which you touched on briefly. What is your experience, as a user? Could more be done?

Ms Best: Dermot, do you want to say anything about your experiences?

Mr Devlin: Sorry, I did not quite get the question.

Mr Dunne: Sorry, maybe I talked too quickly. What is your experience of Translink as a user? Has it improved?

Mr Devlin: I can speak only about my experiences, coming from a rural area. If, for example, I want to go to Belfast or Dublin, I have to use the Goldliner and the platform that takes you up above. For a wheelchair user, it is extremely nerve-racking to use that. Basically, you feel unsafe when you are going up there. Once you get up, you have to drive into the bus. It is a very annoying experience to get your wheelchair in and turned around. If you make one slight move, the wheelchair could come out, and you could fall from a great height. I know from other wheelchair users through IMTAC and other members of the public that they have the same fear as I do. We feel as though we are taking our life in our hands by doing that. The low floor should be the one that Translink procures. It is a lot easier to get in.

I have friends and family who are wheelchair users, but I have to travel on my own. The other wheelchair users cannot come with me, because there is not enough space for more than one wheelchair on the bus. If we were going to Belfast for the day, we would have to travel in two separate trains. It is almost a two-hour journey, and I would have to wait for them to come, or they would have to wait for me to come. It is not a great system.

We are continuing with Translink to make sure that it makes the right choices for buses. As a wheelchair user, I have come across other issues. The audiovisual displays are not across the network yet, so we do not know the information. Some people need advance notice when they are coming up to a train station or a bus stop. Some people, particularly the hearing impaired or those with sensory difficulties, need advance notice so that they can be ready to get off the bus when it comes to their stop. The reality is that, while there are a lot of difficulties in the cities and bigger towns, those difficulties are multiplied when you come to rural Fermanagh and Omagh. It is the same as with the taxi services.

Mr Lorimer: I will add to that. We have spent a lot of time building relationships with Translink. Chris Conway is coming to an IMTAC meeting next week to answer questions. We have spent a lot of time building those relationships with people at senior levels in Translink. I have to acknowledge that the two most recent Ministers, John O'Dowd and Nichola Mallon, have been excellent in holding Translink to account for the public money that it is given and requiring it to deliver on accessibility. We are starting to see the fruits of building those relationships and the Department and Ministers saying to Translink, "You need to deliver more accessibility with the money you are getting".

We had a meeting yesterday about bus procurement. We are heading in the right direction in tackling some of the issues that Dermot talked about. The big problem, particularly when we are investing in the like of buses and infrastructure, is that, once you have spent the money, it is difficult to go back and fix certain things. You are stuck with a bus for eight to 10 years and a new station for 30 years. The message is starting to drop that we need to make sure that, when we spend money, we spend it as well as we can and make the service as inclusive and accessible to everyone as we can. There is credit due on Translink's side but also on the Department's side for being much more robust with Translink than it perhaps has been in the past. Hopefully, that message will also get through from today.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Stephen, are you happy enough?

Mr Dunne: Yes. Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): I want to pick up on a point relating to the legislation and refusals. I take it that refusals are being reported. There are no prosecutions, but I take it that they are being reported.

Ms Best: It depends. If I am refused, I will let people know about it. I will certainly phone the taxi company etc, but that is the end of it. There is no process for taking that forward. As we said, we need to look at that. There is nobody policing it. Some service organisations, such as Guide Dogs or Mencap, might have more statistics on how many refusals there have been and where they were. It is up to individuals to report. It is like everything else: a lot of people who have had a bad experience will not go out again. That is the truth; that is the shame about this. I am talking about taxis.

You asked about buses and trains — other forms of public transport. My dog, Clyde, is quite big, and he finds it difficult and uncomfortable to be in buses and coaches. I am usually asked at the door of the coach, for instance, to walk to the back, and it is not always the nicest place to be. Therefore, I use taxis to get to the station where I live because trains are much easier for me to use and have the space and comfort for him.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Thank you. We can certainly look into finding out about those refusals and enforcements. Nobody should be refused public transport, and that includes taxi provision.

Members, are you content, or are there any further questions?

Mr Boylan: I have just one point. It is important to log those complaints and have them called in. I advise that those issues need to be recorded, no matter who it is.

Just a final point, I see here that there are other schemes across the water, and we need to support the taxi industry as well. It is not just a case of, "Let's beat people with a big stick"; we need to encourage them. I know that there are regulations and that a certain percentage should have been — I am not arguing about that — but we have a new conversation starting today on your behalf, and let us have that. The scheme across the water or any scheme that works well in another jurisdiction might be able to be replicated here. You have made reference to some of them, and we will certainly follow that up on your behalf.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Super. Thank you.

I am conscious that, ironically, we are talking about transport provision and have asked you to come to the Committee today and go through all those challenges in getting to Stormont. We deeply appreciate your taking the time to go through those challenges today to get here. If you do not mind, I would really like to say "Bye" to Clyde before he goes. [Laughter.]

Thank you for your evidence today. It is a really serious issue and something that we want to find solutions for. We appreciate it. I will now say "Bye" to Clyde before he leaves.

Ms Best: Thank you very much, all of you, for listening.