Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): I welcome from the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs David Simpson, director of corporate planning and governance; and Hugh Quinn, head of strategic planning branch. Thank you very much for joining us this morning. I invite you to give your briefing.

Mr David Simpson (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs): Thanks, Chair. Good morning, everyone. Thanks for inviting us along to update the Committee on DAERA's business plan for 2024-25 and the draft Programme for Government (PFG), 'Our Plan: Doing What Matters Most'.

The DAERA plan is built on the priorities that the Minister outlined to the Committee, which aim to benefit our climate and the natural environment by supporting our agriculture, food and fisheries sectors in rural communities. In total, there are 34 measures in the plan, split across the Minister's six priorities, with a further six enabling measures that support delivery. The measures were developed taking account of the financial position in which the Department operates. You will note that, although we have assessed them as deliverable in this financial year, some of them require Executive agreement, which may impact on their deliverability.

In summary, the measures set out how we will deal with our immediate challenges in the current financial year. They also set the direction for how we will deliver the Minister's priorities in the longer term. You will note that many of them are cross-cutting: we are committed to working collaboratively with our partners and stakeholders in delivering the plan. The plan was developed in advance of the draft Programme for Government, but the measures in it have a clear link to the draft PFG's priorities and missions, and I will touch on that later.

The first ministerial priority is, "Tackling climate change together". There are eight measures to be delivered this year to address that priority. They are important in moving us towards delivering the target of net zero carbon emissions by 2050, as set out in the Climate Change Act (Northern Ireland) 2022. You will know that DAERA leads on the implementation of the Climate Change Act, including the development of the first climate action plan for Northern Ireland, and all Departments, the public sector, businesses and wider society have a part to play in that. The measures are cross-cutting and are designed to ensure that we are on a pathway to achieving net zero in a fair and just way while ensuring that the economy benefits from the opportunities that arise.

The second ministerial priority is, "Protecting our natural environment". There are six measures to support that that, again, are cross-cutting. They are designed to protect and enhance our natural and marine environments and to address challenges in water and air quality, soil health and biodiversity. You will note that one of the measures set out under the priority is to publish a new environmental improvement plan (EIP) for Northern Ireland. You will also be aware that the Executive recently agreed the environmental improvement plan, which sets out coherent and effective interventions that will collectively deliver improvements in our environment.

The third ministerial priority is "Strengthening environmental governance". That is about ensuring that we have the right educational, behavioural, legislative, regulatory and accountability frameworks in place to drive improvements in areas such as water quality and waste management. In support of the priority, the plan sets out four measures, including the commitment to work with the Department of Justice to carry out a review of fines and penalties for environmental crimes and to identify improvements that bring about a more effective penalty regime.

The fourth ministerial priority is "Supporting sustainable, resilient and productive agri-food and fishing sectors". The plan sets out four supporting measures, including the commitment to deliver 95% of basic payment scheme payments to eligible applicants. Direct payments have been issued to over 23,000 farmers, which represents 98% of eligible applicants. You will see that the business plan also provides a commitment to utilise the farm support and development programme to support the transition to sustainable production that benefits our environment and climate and is resilient to external pressures, particularly in the supply chain.

We also committed to bringing forward a new food strategy framework for consideration by the Executive. The food strategy framework was approved by the Executive in July of this year. It is due to be published later in the autumn. It is also referenced in the draft Programme for Government.

Our fifth ministerial priority is, "Safeguarding animal health and welfare and plant health". The business plan for this year sets out nine measures in support of that priority, ranging from bringing forward proposals that are capable of delivering reductions in the incidence of bovine TB to bringing forward proposals to ban the third-party sale of pups and kittens in Northern Ireland. It is important to note that that priority is also important to ensuring continued access to the GB and EU markets. The measures are also mindful of the threat of diseases such as avian influenza, African swine fever and bluetongue, on which you recently received a briefing.

Our sixth ministerial priority contains measures that aim to build stronger, connected, resilient and prosperous rural communities. There are three measures, including a commitment to implement the tackling rural poverty and social isolation (TRPSI) action plan, which was approved by the Minister in July. The plan is derived from the tackling rural poverty and social isolation framework, which focuses on three priority areas for intervention: financial poverty, social isolation and access poverty.

As I mentioned, the plan sets out a further six enabling measures that support delivery. In a nutshell, those measures explain how we will align our resources to meet the priorities and live within the budget that is allocated to us, while ensuring that expenditure is managed in line with the principles of regularity, propriety and value for money. They also provide a commitment to ensure that we comply with our statutory obligations under the Windsor framework.

I have covered our 2024-25 business plan, so I will move on to the draft Programme for Government and how it intersects with our business plan. You will be aware that the Executive agreed a draft Programme for Government that sets out the priorities, policies and actions that they aim to deliver, all tied to a Budget. That is out for public consultation, as you know, which closes on 4 November. As part of the process, the Executive Office is hosting a series of stakeholder engagement events that are being supported by DAERA staff. Following the public consultation exercise, the Executive must seek to agree the plan, subject to Assembly approval.

The draft Programme for Government is set out in three clear parts, the first of which is, "Doing What Matters Most Today", which focuses on the Executive's immediate priorities for this year and throughout their term in government. The section entitled "Building New Foundations" sets out the Executive's ambitions for the upgrade of infrastructure and services to meet today's needs and future goals. The section entitled, "Shaping a Better Tomorrow", centres on three long-term missions — people, planet and prosperity — that are all rooted in a commitment to peace. Those missions aspire to improve life for our communities and ensure a sustainable environment and collective well-being for present and future generations.

The slide that you can see, entitled "Doing What Matters Most", shows the immediate priorities to support businesses and improve the lives of workers, families and communities. They are not listed in any order of importance. Although DAERA's work cuts across a number of them, we have a direct link with the priority to protect Lough Neagh and the environment.

Members will be aware of the issues that face Lough Neagh, how the causes are multifactorial and how serious the problem is. To protect Lough Neagh, the Executive propose a number of DAERA-led actions in the draft Programme for Government. The first one is the Lough Neagh action plan, which has already been agreed and published by the Executive. It sets out key proposals to address the issues at Lough Neagh against four key pillars: education; investment, incentivisation and innovation; regulation; and enforcement. You will also note that that is referenced as one of the key measures in our 2024-25 business plan.

The PFG also references a climate action plan. It commits to developing one and to setting carbon budgets that will help us to reach our goal of net zero by 2050.

It provides a commitment to publish a new environmental strategy that will be adopted as Northern Ireland's first environmental improvement plan. As I said, that is one of our business plan commitments, and it was recently agreed by the Executive. It also proposes a DAERA-led inter-agency protocol to ensure better monitoring of our water, an early response to any future outbreaks and a small business research initiative that will explore potential solutions to treat or reduce blue-green algal blooms. Members may be aware that phase 1 of the small business research initiative challenge fund has been launched and that five successful suppliers have been selected to develop a proof of concept.

I want to briefly touch on the reform and transformation of public services, as it affects all Departments, including DAERA. In short, it refers to the Executive's plans to transform public services and includes proposals to set up a reform and transformation unit that will work across all Departments to ensure that the PFG priorities get the resources that they need. It also refers to plans to develop a comprehensive reform package that will include a fiscal framework, a sustainability plan and a transformation programme.

The draft Programme for Government is guided by three long-term missions: people, planet and prosperity. As I have said, those missions are anchored by a commitment to peace. Under the "People" mission, the Executive want to create a fair and inclusive society in which everyone has the opportunity to thrive and no one gets left behind. That means tackling issues such as inequality, crime and health disparities as well as building safer and more resilient communities. Under "Planet", Ministers are committed to protecting our environment and natural resources for future generations. That includes the promotion of sustainable farming and low-carbon energy, and the Executive's climate action plan aims to support people and businesses through that transition. You will note that a just transition is referenced in the Department's 2024-25 business plan. Under "Prosperity", Ministers are actively working to attract global investment and boost trade opportunities to make the most of our unique position. On "Peace", which underpins everything, Ministers are united in their commitment to building on the progress of the past 25 years and ensuring that everyone benefits from lasting peace.

Before I invite questions, this is an opportune time to link the measures in the Programme for Government to those set out in the Department's business plan. You will see that the Programme for Government references DAERA's activities across all three missions and that there are already measures in our business plan that reflect those. For example, under the "People" mission, the PFG references the "NI Food Strategy Framework" and the importance of the agri-food industry, recognising that it is:

It also references disease eradication and animal welfare. Under "Planet", you will see that it references the climate action plan, just transition, water quality and the environmental improvement plan. Under "Prosperity", it references net zero.

That concludes my presentation. I am happy to take any questions.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Thank you very much. That was really good; I enjoyed it. I do not know whether it is your first time presenting to the Committee.

Mr Hugh Quinn (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs): It is for both of us.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): You are welcome. This is only my second week as Chair — my second presentation — so we are all off to a good start. Thank you so much for that. That was very useful.

I will ask a couple of questions. I am not sure whether you are aware that today is World Mental Health Day. All the parties here and all Departments are much more au fait with and aware of the need to raise awareness of mental health issues and of the things that impact on mental health than they used to be. We know that poverty, trauma and loss probably impact on mental health the most. I think very much of the link to the just transition piece that the Minister is working on. Also one of the pillars in the Programme for Government is a commitment to:

I cannot help but think of the significant link to achieving an absolute just transition, not just for farmers but for all the businesses in the rural sector. Will you flesh that out a little to how the Minister is looking at a just transition; what the breadth of that vision is in terms of what it impacts on; and whether the impact on mental health, if not handled appropriately, has been picked up as a significant threat?

Mr Quinn: I am happy to take that question. The just transition is a key priority for DAERA, and we need to set up the just transition commission. We have engaged with our counterparts in Scotland and England, and officials are assessing the potential content of regulations. I imagine that the areas of concern that you have raised will also form part of the debate. As you said, it is not a case of wanting to take a certain area or sector with us: as far as possible, we want to take everyone with us when we scope the just transition.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): My thinking on this is in two parts. The first is about the ambition to have a growing, thriving economy. I am trying to see what the Minister's ambition is on that. One of the markers of a just transition is that the economy is equally vibrant and thriving and that a just transition is not seen as being a reduction. From looking at the Scottish and Welsh models, I know that the Welsh model is underpinned by a well-being objective. The other jurisdictions seem to have flexibility in their just transition. Has the Minister given any direction on what the Northern Ireland ambition will be and how that will fit with other ambitions?

Mr Quinn: We can take that away. We are not across all the detail, as we are giving a strategic overview, but we can certainly find out whether that has been considered.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Not a problem.

I have one final question before I bring members in. The Department's business plan states:

Have you any idea what progress has been made on identifying those sectors and how that is being done? We are getting more into the mechanics.

Mr Quinn: We just went out to get an update on progress on the development of the actions. The commission has just gone out, so we can touch base on that to identify the questions and come back to you on them.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Thank you very much, Hugh and David.

Mr McAleer: Your presentation referred to 98% of the basic payments having been made: that is a commendable figure for 10 October, in fairness. Have you made any assessment of what budget will be available for that next year?

Mr Quinn: We have not been made aware of that. Roger Downey was up with you last week. The October monitoring round will go ahead, so that might form part of his considerations. Again, we can take that question back.

Mr McAleer: It is also, in terms of the ring-fenced budget, a Treasury matter.

You also referred to the farm support and development programme: are there any updates or timelines on that? What shape will it take?

Mr Quinn: The programme is being co-designed with the Northern Ireland agriculture industry and key food and environmental stakeholders. The planned scheme and the measures in it will contribute to statutory obligations under the Climate Change Act 2022, but the overall aim is a more sustainable farming sector. We have not had an update on how far it has progressed, but, again, we can pick up on those points.

Mr McAleer: You mentioned March 2025, which is five months away, as the date for the development of a new rural policy. That has been consulted on and has been here for a long time. Why will it take another five months?

Mr Quinn: Again, I think officials were up recently. If not, they are due to come to you on that. They are better placed to inform you about where they are on that and whether it is deliverable by the end of March.

Mr McAleer: Thank you very much for your presentation and for answering my questions.

Mr Irwin: Thank you for your presentation. I see here that the Minister is going to reverse the changes to the cross-compliance regime that the previous Minister brought in. Many cross-compliance penalties were draconian. From speaking to officials, I know that many felt that they were draconian and that the new guidelines were much fairer to farmers. When does the Minister propose to bring those into being?

Mr Quinn: The consultation is still going ahead with key stakeholders. I believe that it concluded on 9 October, with proposals that those changes be introduced in 2025. Again, there is the potential for slippage with those things, but it concluded on 9 October, so it might be worth following that up with the relevant policy leads about the next steps on it.

Mr Irwin: Many farmers see it as the Minister wanting to punish them. Cross-compliance is good, but, as I said before, many of the penalties were draconian. For instance, when it comes to late notifications of a permit in the yard, you have seven days in which to do that. On the eighth day, you are into a penalty situation for something very minor. The Minister is taking a backward step. This is a backward step, and it will be seen as such by the industry and by farmers.

Mr Blair: David and Hugh, thanks for your presentation this morning. I am mindful of two things. First, some of the more detailed questions might be better asked of the respective business areas. You will understand my rationale for saying that. Secondly, as you may know, the Committee will separately consider the Programme for Government and our response to that, so I will hold off on some of my thoughts about that until then. I will focus, if I may, on strategic business planning matters in this session.

There is some good stuff here. For example, the long-awaited environmental improvement plan is now before us in print and in reality. In the context of the Chair's comments on mental health awareness at the current time, the review of rural policy that is mentioned in the business plan is a good and welcome commitment. There should be a key link between rural isolation, government policy on matters regarding mental health and, therefore, rural policy. I am also pleased to see the commitment to the review of penalties for environmental crimes. Hopefully, that will get us to a stage at which every person, business and sector will know their commitments to comply with the law, just as the rest of us must do in relation to all matters of law.

I go back to the business planning and strategy, if I may. Can you give us any insight into what structures or frameworks are in place to ensure the proper oversight of cross-cutting issues around, for example, climate and environment more generally? Lough Neagh is a good example of an issue that naturally sits with DAERA. People will look to DAERA automatically on that, but we all know that there are Infrastructure responsibilities around water and that planning matters could impact it. Is there a set framework for ensuring that the cross-cutting responsibilities are kept front and centre of all considerations?

Mr Simpson: I suppose that it is done more on a case-by-case basis. For example, the Lough Neagh action plan set out a series of cross-cutting measures. The small business research initiative that is referenced in the Programme for Government is a really good example of how to work with stakeholders to resolve an issue like that.

Mr Blair: Yes, but is it the responsibility of the individual business areas to manage all the frameworks, committee structures, working groups or whatever they may be?

Mr Simpson: It is a combination. Individual business areas work with their key stakeholders, which they know and understand. From a departmental perspective, we have our departmental board and all of our committees. Each of our respective groups meets regularly. Our thinking is joined up.

Mr Blair: My next question is about a recurring theme for me on the Committee, but it is important. It strikes me immediately that, although the Department has responsibility for public estates, such as forestry and fisheries, there is no overall business planning commitment to public engagement. Was any consideration given to whether there should be a public engagement strategy to show the public what the Department does and connect the public better with what you are delivering etc? Was that considered at any point?

Mr Simpson: As in an overarching public engagement strategy?

Mr Blair: As a business planning policy.

Mr Simpson: Yes. I think that I am correct in saying that that is probably done on a policy area basis. The people who develop policies engage directly with the stakeholders and understand the issues better. However, that is a good point. It is maybe something that we will take away.

Mr Blair: I would be really pleased if somebody, at some point — preferably soon — could look at that. Forestry and fisheries are two standout examples, but there are others. Rural policy is another one on which we could engage more directly with the public to shape the delivery.

Mr Quinn: A lot of those actions are not taken in isolation. There are public consultation events, such as around the ammonia strategy, climate change or aspects of different programmes. A lot of consultation goes on, but, as you said, maybe there is an overarching one that could be scoped out a bit more.

Mr Blair: I have mentioned this before, Chair, so apologies for the repetition and apologies for no commitment that it will not happen again [Laughter.]

The public voluntary resource and knowledge bank is worth tapping into. That is another reason why I ask these questions. There are people who are committed to matters like the environment, and, if they are engaged with the Department, you can glean knowledge from them.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Thank you, John. That was useful.

Mr McGlone: Thank you for your presentation. I represent and live in a very rural area. For me, rural development embraces so many things. You sporadically mentioned and touched on some of them.

The most extreme form of rural isolation for me is the elderly person, often disabled, who is not able to get out of their house and not able to get a domiciliary care package, which, clearly, is a health issue. Other aspects of it are education, schools, job creation and the ability to create rural housing. I say "ability" because, in many of those instances, that is constrained by the capacity of the local sewage disposal works, if there is one.

There is a multiplicity of issues that affect rural development. DAERA cannot be lumbered with all of them. How are Departments working together to address those issues strategically? Is there a structure or framework? There is supposed to be an Executive, but, on occasions, we see them working in a silo way. Is there a strategic structure in the Civil Service that is driving those issues collectively and addressing them?

The document that you mentioned on rural policy development is welcome, but government has known about the issues for many years. That is my question to you today. I do not know whether you can answer that question today. Maybe your colleagues who will present on rural policy are better placed to do that. It is something that runs through my mind. I see all those things affecting our rural communities. In some instances, it affects them positively and there could be learning in that regard, but, in other instances, you ask yourself, "Who's joining up the dots here?".

Mr Simpson: I will take that one. To address the broader point around the framework, that is what the Programme for Government is there for: to collectively address those issues. With regard to rural isolation, I take your point that it is not just something that can be addressed by our Department. I cannot speak authoritatively on rural policy per se, but I know that they will be working with other Departments to consider those issues and undertake public consultation exercises. One of the things that you refer to is —.

Mr McGlone: My point is, David, that these have not been unknown to government and public representatives for years. If you do not know the answer to this, that is grand; you can write to us. What structure is in place to make sure that collectively, at Civil Service level, someone is collating all the issues and saying, "That is for rural development. That is about rural isolation. That is for rural housing policy", and making sure that it is done strategically? That is my point.

Mr Quinn: We can take that up with the policy leads. As you know, Patsy, various work goes on. For example, we work with the Department for Communities and the Department of Health on farm health programmes, and, on assisted travel schemes, we work with DFI, where we allocate some funding for people in rural areas. I take your point that there needs to be some higher-level —.

Mr McGlone: I get that, but throwing a grant at it is not a strategy. That is my point.

Mr Quinn: Yes, we will take that away as well.

Mr McGlone: OK. Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): That was a good line of questioning.

I am sure you will not be able to answer this, but I am keen for you to take it back. There is a wider discussion about the impact that hybrid working will have not just in the short term but in the longer term. You picked up on the piece on loneliness, and I cannot help thinking of the link between what is expedient today in most of our lives, which is thinking that it is great to do a bit of hybrid working, and the loss of the links with face-to-face, in-person contact and the failure to build lasting relationships, which is probably the linchpin of loneliness. Perhaps, in the Department of Agriculture in particular, while I accept that this is a wider matter for the Executive and, particularly, the Department for the Economy, there is a piece of work around rural dwellings, rural poverty and rural infrastructure on the impact of hybrid working not just today but in the longer term, taking into account the ambition to tackle loneliness and mental health issues. Have you picked that up at all in any of your discussions?

Mr Quinn: It is not something I am aware of, but we can take that one away.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): I appreciate that. Thanks very much.

Miss McIlveen: I am mindful of a comment that John Blair made around looking at specifics that maybe you cannot address. Given the fact that you are here and this is the session on this, it would be remiss of me not to look at it. Thank you for your presentation. In the business plan, items 35 and 36 focus on science and research, and it says:

I am curious about what that means and what it will mean for the Agri-Food and Biosciences Institute (AFBI).

Mr Simpson: I am AFBI's senior sponsor, so I know a little about it. Transforming DAERA's science system is about ensuring that we get world-leading science that informs all of our activities around climate change. AFBI is engaged in the programme. It is a key stakeholder, and we work closely with it on that.

Miss McIlveen: Part of that concerns me, because there has been a criticism of the Programme of Government, in general, that there is no direct focus on the agri-food sector, and obviously AFBI has been instrumental in the development of that. I am curious about how the new focus will align with what it was doing and whether that work will be completely departed from or will be worked on in parallel.

Mr Simpson: What do you mean by "working in parallel"?

Miss McIlveen: Whether you will continue to do work to support the agri-food sector continue or the focus will change to climate change, the environment and so on?

Mr Simpson: A lot of what we do is statutory obligations, and those will be required to be delivered. For example, the testing that AFBI undertakes will still be required in the future.

Miss McIlveen: The word used was "transform", and I was curious about what that meant and would look like going forward.

The other thing is the implementation of the antimicrobial resistance (AMR) implementation plan that you are working on with the Department of Health. Can you come back with information on whether that will be linked to the national action plan for AMR? Do you have any more details on that?

Mr Simpson: We will check it with our veterinary colleagues and come back to you.

Miss McIlveen: That would be helpful. Thank you.

Mr McGlone: I have a brief question. This is a pretty big issue in some of our rural areas for farmers who are interested in it. The Department has committed itself to planting 9,000 hectares of woodland from 2020 to 2030. The document states:

How much of the 9,000 hectares that was committed to has been planted or assisted to plant to date?

Mr Quinn: From 2020 to date?

Mr McGlone: Yes. Of the commitment to 9,000 hectares.

Mr Quinn: We will come back with proper figures.

Mr McGlone: That is grand. OK.

Mr Quinn: There is a bit more to do there.

Mr Irwin: Will the changes made to cross-compliance be in the entirety of the previous Minister's decisions to change the rules on cross-compliance? It says:

Is that in the entirety? Is all of cross-compliance going to be changed? Is that what you are saying?

Mr Simpson: I am not sure whether it is all of the cross-compliance regime or particular changes. I will come back to you on that one.

Mr Irwin: It is important to know what the changes are. OK.

Ms Á Murphy: I have a quick question. On the 2024-25 Budget and the Department's business case, what criteria or rationale are used to make decisions about section 75 obligations?

Mr Quinn: Section 75 has to be considered in everything we do. When the Executive allocate the budget, which was in April this year, the Minister allocates it to the individual groups in the Department, which then considers the priorities for delivery. It then reflects the measures we capture in the business plan. That is probably not the detailed answer you want, but I can definitely follow up on it for you.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Any other follow-ups? OK.

Thank you very much for you time, gentlemen. I think that you will agree that the members have been very fair today: I cannot promise that the next time you come. Thank you for your brief and for answering the questions. We look forward to the follow-up information as promised.