Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): I thank the First Minister, the deputy First Minister and the two junior Ministers for coming to the Committee today. I remind members that we only have them for one hour, so if we keep our questions nice and succinct, we will cover a lot of ground. Do you want to make any opening remarks?

Mrs O'Neill (The First Minister): Yes, thank you, Chair. We are grateful for the opportunity to be back in front of the Committee this afternoon. I know that you would like us to keep our comments brief, so we will endeavour to do that and open the meeting up for discussion. We are delighted to have both junior Ministers, Pam and Aisling, with us today, who work very hard alongside us in the Executive Office.

I know that, throughout the course of the conversation, members will want to touch on some of the departmental issues that we are currently working on and considering. It would be remiss of us, however, not to highlight some of the issues that we have put a lot of emphasis on and some of the significant announcements that we have made in recent weeks. The Committee is heavily involved in the first of those, which is around the Executive's draft Programme for Government, which was announced to the Assembly and launched for public consultation. It is fair to say that it has been welcomed by everyone, and it is the culmination of extensive dialogue across the Executive. Inevitably, of course — you will know this — there are different views on what should or should not be included in the Programme for Government. We look forward to considering all the consultation responses that we receive. As I said, this Committee has a pivotal role in coordinating the collective response of all the Assembly Committees to the draft Programme for Government and, no doubt, will perform that task diligently. We look forward to the Assembly's contribution to the final Programme for Government in a short period of time.

Of course, that followed our earlier statement to the Assembly about our legislative programme for 2024. Departments are now taking forward the work on those Bills. As indicated, we are going to make a further statement later this term on the legislative proposals for the remainder of the 2024-25 Assembly session. We will keep coming back to that and refreshing it as we add to it.

Mrs Little-Pengelly (The deputy First Minister): Thank you. It is great to be here. I echo the First Minister's thanks for the opportunity to appear before the Committee. I will be brief, but I wanted to mention in particular our strategy for ending violence against women and girls (EVAWG), which has been published since we were last here. It is a key priority in the draft Programme for Government, but we felt that it was important to move ahead when we were able to. The First Minister and I are personally committed to that issue, so we are very pleased to have reached that milestone. We were delighted, therefore, to be able to formally publish a strategic framework and a first delivery plan associated with the strategy. We are confident that it will deliver real change for those who suffer harm and abuse in our society every day. We are realistic about it, but we believe that this is a really strong start and will progress to make a real and tangible benefit and difference.

A few weeks ago, the First Minister and I were in the north-west for the signing of the £290 million Derry/Londonderry and Strabane region city deal. This is a hugely significant opportunity for growth in the area and tangible proof of how collaborative working across government can deliver much-needed investment on the ground. Of course, all of that is set amidst the financial constraints that we all face. We are all fully aware of the two city deals that are currently paused. We are doing everything that we can to push those issues and try to ensure that the Government unpause those. We do not see that there is any justification for that, and all parts of Northern Ireland must benefit from those. Nevertheless, it is an example of the financial constraints and challenges that we face. I know that everyone on the Committee is well aware of those as well.

I assure the Committee that our focus is very much on delivery. Yes, that is challenging at the moment because of the current Budget, but we are very aware that we can do something. That is why we have moved forward with a whole range of issues, and you have seen those set out in the draft Programme for Government priorities. We are also very conscious that one of the big things that we can do is to prepare for the opportunities that will, hopefully, come in relation to some of those priorities, and that we are finding the right solutions to be implemented in the right way, at the right time and in the right place. At our very first appearance at the Committee, I mentioned the importance of getting those things right and delivering well-developed proposals and interventions in an effective way. There is a window of opportunity now for us to do that. That is the best way of making a meaningful difference across the priorities that we have identified.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Thank you. Do either of the junior Ministers want to add anything?

Mrs O'Neill: We thought that, for the sake of brevity, we would allow you to come in.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Even better, thank you. We have two more panels to talk to today, and we are focusing on the racially motivated incidents that happened in the summer. I want to pick up on the Communities in Transition (CIT) programme. It is my understanding that you are in a transition year. You have had phases 1 and 2, and you are looking at planning for the delivery of a future phase. I am concerned that, of the eight programmes, none is in South Belfast, which is where the coercive control structures of paramilitarism are very prevalent. Where are you with phase 3, and will you bring forward the research so that you can look at a new set of programmes?

Mrs O'Neill: Do you want us to start with that one, or do you want to ask a few?

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): That is the first one. The second one is pretty much linked to that, because it is about where we are with the review of Together: Building a United Community (T:BUC). Instead of the binary aspect, it is more about multiculturalism. I also have a question about our inquiry.

Mrs Little-Pengelly: I will start on CIT. The Committee will have been updated on the progress that has been made with the programme. There were really good evaluations of the implementation and the feedback on the particular projects. The projects were put together with a collaborative design approach and, overall, the evaluations have been very positive. You will be aware that the areas were decided on in accordance with a matrix, which was based on a range of advice and evidence as to activity. South Belfast scored very low on that.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): That was eight years ago. I am asking whether there will be an update.

Mrs Little-Pengelly: Of course. The relevance of this type of programme is to continually assess that. Moving forward, of course you have to make sure that these interventions are going in the right area, and that will be based on a combination of factors, including levels of criminality but also intelligence and assessments around the levels of other activity. You will be aware that there is a crossover in some of the activities in the summer and that there have been interventions, including by the Executive Office. South Belfast is an Urban Villages area, for example, and that was all about building —

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Minister, can —?

Mrs Little-Pengelly: — social capital within the community. It is important that these programmes are collaborative. There is a complementary and supplementary aspect to the Urban Villages, neighbourhood renewal and community relations work, and the race and CIT work in all the areas. Therefore, it is really important that we continue to learn from our experience of the roll-out of those programmes in those areas to see where the added value of, for example, CIT is, but that will be based absolutely on evidence on where the areas of need are for this type of project.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Are you giving an assurance there? Your officials have said that, looking forward to phase 3, this will involve commissioning of research to look at the prevalence of paramilitarism across CIT areas and beyond to inform. I am asking whether that research has been commissioned for phase 3.

Mrs O'Neill: I am not 100% sure, but we will clarify that for you. A more general point is that we live in a very changing society, and we have a number of different programmes, whether it be Urban Villages, good relations work, race relations work or the T:BUC work in general. We are moving to a space where we need to find a way to align all those things, and I think that our focus should no longer be on what has traditionally been described as orange versus green. It needs to be about how we make a better, fairer society, a more equal society and a more inclusive society. A lot of the work that we are doing in that regard is around that overarching review and how it all, even the Commission on Flags, Identity, Culture and Tradition (FICT), fits under that one umbrella. We want to bring forward ideas that actually allow us to harness that work together. Do you want to add to that, Aisling?

Ms Reilly (Junior Minister, The Executive Office): Yes. In the past eight months, since we have been in position, junior Minister Cameron and I have been very involved in T:BUC. We have met and listened to a whole range of people, and we have been able to see for ourselves the impact that T:BUC has had on people's lives. It has brought people together and is very much about enhancing and investing in communities. We have been to Derry, Newry and all around Belfast, and we have listened to and spoken to people of all ages and backgrounds. They have been engaging in the programmes, and that has been really positive for us to see, because, by and large, they are telling us that they have had to step out of their comfort zones. It has been really powerful for us to see that for ourselves and listen to those people.

As recently as last week, I was at the official launch of the Black Mountain shared space project, and that is a perfect example of bringing communities together in a space that is not only shared and welcoming but modern and fitting for the people who will use it. It is also about the community having a sense of ownership of that space. Luckily enough for me, it is five minutes away from my constituency office. For me, that shows the Executive's commitment to improving community relations, because, fundamentally, we all want everybody who lives here and calls here home, regardless of their background, to be really proud of where they live and for that to be somewhere that represents them.

As Michelle said, we understand that the make-up of society is changing, but it is important for us, as political leaders and representatives, to be out and about, to be accessible and to be listening. Fundamentally, we need to bring that back, because that will inform any review of T:BUC and how we go forward with that strategy.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): OK. I think that you have covered my second question. Can we get an update on the identity and languages Act and the three bodies?

Mrs O'Neill: Yes. I think Pam is just going to confirm that the research that you asked about earlier has been commissioned.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): OK. Good. Thank you, Pam.

Mrs O'Neill: There you go; junior Minister to the rescue.

Ms Ní Chuilín: Well done, Pam. [Laughter.]

Mrs O'Neill: We are making progress on the language and identity commissioners. We have got panels agreed and in place, so we can move forward to the next stage of the recruitment process. That demonstrates good progress.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): I have one last question; I do not want to hog this.

You will be aware that our Committee is conducting an inquiry into gaps in equality legislation. The direction of travel is nearly set out, and we are only about halfway through taking oral evidence. If a key recommendation is for this Committee to bring forward a single equality Bill, will we have the support of the Executive Office and your officials in that work?

Mrs O'Neill: There will probably be a difference in emphasis from the two parties on a single equality Bill. We have not considered it. I am certainly supportive of a single equality Bill, but we need to see the proposals coming forward so that we can jointly consider them.

Mrs Little-Pengelly: It will be a case of taking a look at the detail. Undoubtedly, a range of gaps have emerged, and those need to be addressed. There has always been an issue about trying to bring those together, having a regurgitation of the existing law and asking people to vote again on that legislation. As Michelle said, there will be different views on single equality legislation. We have not traditionally felt that that was the way forward. However, we absolutely want to look at where the gaps are in equality legislation and move forward on it.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): If there is a vehicle or a series of vehicles, we will —.

Mrs Little-Pengelly: We are absolutely committed to looking at and addressing that.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): OK. Thank you.

Ms Egan: Thank you all for coming in today. Your time is really appreciated. I will ask a few questions around the recently launched strategic framework to end violence against women and girls, which is really positive. The co-design partners, along with your officials, put in a lot of hard work to get that over the line. I want to ask a few questions around the funding specifically. I know that budgets are very tight. However, it has been pointed out to me that the Republic of Ireland is spending £59 million — nearly £60 million — just in 2024 on gender-based violence initiatives, whereas here we have announced £3 million over two years, which, although positive, is a much smaller amount. Can you give me some detail about how that is being spent? Are you looking at other funding streams? Are you talking to the Finance Minister about it? When will the change fund be launched?

Mrs O'Neill: There are three questions in that. I will kick off. Obviously, we are dealing with two different jurisdictions. We all have our political view of that; I know what mine is. You are looking at a sovereign Government in Dublin. If you directly compare our budget with what they are dealing with, you see that, for example, the entirety of the Apple tax is the entirety of our block grant for every public service. Therein lies the challenge. You cannot really compare the two. However, £3 million is what we have identified for the first two years of the initial action plan. We want to get that money out on the ground as quickly as possible. Hopefully, we will get the money moving before the end of the year. There are a number of different strands to that work. That is certainly not the totality of it. I know that Emma and I are very determined that we use every avenue open to us to achieve additional funding.

What we wanted to do was take what we have for now, launch the two-year action plan, align the funding to it, get that work moving and then build on it. There are lots of opportunities for us to build on it going forward and looking at what other funding stream there may be. For example, can we use the Irish Government's budget — can we do something around ending violence against women and girls in border counties through the Shared Island Fund? Can we use the other sources of funding that we have? We will not be shy in trying to knock doors and get what we need, because this is a game changer piece of work. If we can have that whole-society focus on ending violence against women and girls, it will be a game changer. We know that it will not be turned around overnight, but it will start to transform. If we are committed to it and continue to invest in it, the seven-year road map can be successful and very transformative.

I commend to the Committee the co-design approach that we took. It was second to none, and it is a very good example of how policies should be developed going forward. The partners were in from the very start and had their hands on the design of the strategy.

Mrs Little-Pengelly: I will add to that. We have expressed our thanks to all the people who gave up their time to be part of that collaborative design process. There are lots of lessons to be learnt across government on that process. Looking at it from so many different angles definitely improved the strategy, the actions coming out of it and the delivery plan.

Michelle is absolutely correct: £3 million will not fulfil the ambition that we have for the strategy. However, we were very keen to start not just with the publication of the strategy but with some funding to support initiatives on the ground. We were also very conscious that we did not want to just replace funding that is funded from elsewhere. There has been funding insecurity for really great organisations like Women's Aid, which needs to be addressed. We are conscious that funding is not just pulled into the centre and then replaced by this. The funding through the strategy has to be complementary and supplementary to existing funding in Departments. It is really important to make sure that Departments buy into it as well. It is an Executive strategy, so the spend on these initiatives, for example, in Justice with the PSNI, through the courts, through Communities etc, is likely to be significantly larger, of course, than the £3 million that we have. However, this £3 million will very much focus on working with grassroots organisations on the ground and then funding to support that training and the improvements in our structures and processes all around that prevention.

From our point of view, this is a good start. It is not the ambition that we want for this, but we are also very realistic about the budget that we are operating with at the moment. It will be a case of ramping this up, scaling this up over the course of the next number of years and, hopefully, improving and increasing the pot of money available.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Just before you move on, I remind members that we have an Executive Office briefing on the strategy next week. Go ahead.

Ms Egan: Thank you, Paula. I will take an opportunity while the First Minister and deputy First Minister are here. This is something that I really care about, and it is really positive to see this. How have you have been working with other Departments already with regard to that? I know that there are actions for the Department of Education in regard to curriculum and educational programmes. Also, have you had any conversations with the Departments of Justice and Health about work that they can do together on the recently announced domestic and sexual abuse strategy? There will be a lot that aligns in the two.

Mrs O'Neill: Do you want to start?

Mrs Little-Pengelly: I was just going to say that I was really pleased that the two strategies came to the Executive together, so we had the opportunity to emphasise that, as I am sure that the briefing that you received did. It is right and proper that there is a strategy that goes beyond women and girls, because the domestic and sexual abuse strategy of course impacts much wider than simply that. It is right that it is there, and it is right that that work was developed as part of a cross-departmental project, and that has been published. We wanted to absolutely make sure that this was not duplication and that these strategies complemented each other. We wanted this one to focus on the particular problem — it is a particular problem — of violence against women and girls and what motivates that and the issues with it. We believe that the two strategies are highly complementary, but we want to make sure that, in the operation and implementation of it, that follows through.

We have already been able to leverage some additional money, for example, through the Department for the Economy for working through this strategy and some of the projects. There will also be a number of actions that are low-cost or no cost, and that can be about messages that are integrated, for example, within the curriculum in the Department of Education and elsewhere. They are positive messages around the strategy, but also key messages about what positive relationships look like. There are many actions that we can continue to progress, even though the budget is comparatively small at the moment. However, those actions will still make a big impact, if done correctly.

Mrs O'Neill: That work has already started. The reason that we are able to arrive at the action plan and that everybody knows what is to be done in those first two years is because of that strong cross-departmental working. As Emma said, both strategies are really going to dovetail. They are separate, but in some ways aligned. This is the best chance that we have had to have a holistic approach to ending violence against women and girls and come at it from every angle. There is a part for everybody to play. This is all about prevention, but probably what will be useful for the Committee is that we have asked for twice-yearly updates on the action plan itself and the delivery points. I am sure that the Committee will also want to have that information, and we assure you that we can do that.

Ms Egan: Thank you.

Mr Kingston: I thank the Ministers for their answers so far. The Executive Office oversees many significant issues, including the difficult issue of historical institutional abuse and clerical abuse. I am sure that you will agree that it is important for victims to have confidence in all the processes and in everyone overseeing them. Too often, in the past, people have not spoken up when they have had concerns. I am sure that you will agree that concerns about an alleged abuser should not just disappear when they have been moved to another parish, either literally or metaphorically. Therefore, I feel it is relevant to ask the First Minister about this. You were present at the event in this Building on 14 February 2023, which was also attended by the British Heart Foundation (BHF) and was focused on the medical needs of a child. Were you aware at that time that Michael McGonagle was also present? Did you not feel that it would have been appropriate for you, or someone else in Sinn Féin, to have informed the British Heart Foundation that Mr McMonagle had been suspended from his employment with your party due to serious allegations prior to taking up his post with BHF?

Mrs O'Neill: I will say two things. First, I am absolutely aghast and horrified that two former employees decided to give a reference to that individual. It would not have happened had they come and asked for permission. They would not have been given permission. So I do not agree. It was wrong, absolutely wrong, and it should not have happened.

Secondly, I will make a more general point. No, I did not know anything about Michael McMonagle's whereabouts or employment. I attended an event in this Building, as many members would have, because of the support for the campaign. I engaged with the family on that day, not with anybody who may have been with the British Heart Foundation. It is important to clarify that point.

Outside of that, we are here today as TEO, but I wanted to give a factual account of my view. Absolutely, this is not behaviour that is acceptable to me. That is why, as soon as I became aware of it, we took immediate action, and the two people are no longer employed by Sinn Féin.

Mr Kingston: Again, the point is that, given that members of Sinn Féin were aware of the allegations about Michael McGonagle, which he has since confessed to —.

Ms Ní Chuilín: It is McMonagle. You are saying someone else's name.

Mr Kingston: McMonagle. Does the First Minister stand over the comments by the Economy Minister yesterday on this issue that there was no moral or public responsibility on Sinn Féin to have acted differently, when they were aware of his presence and being employed by a charity?

Mrs O'Neill: I will say this. Remember, at the end of all this, what Michael McMonagle has done is wrong. He has now admitted that and should be dealt with by the full force of the law. Let us make that point very clear. Aligned with that, I am confident that I took all the correct actions on what I needed to do around disciplinary actions within my party. He left our employment, and rightly so.

On your question about the British Heart Foundation, I am very confident that whenever we were aware that there was a criminal investigation under way, that then became an issue for the police and justice system to deal with, and I was confident that that was the case. There are lessons to be learned for a lot of people here around the due diligence of an employer who takes on an employee. Everybody needs to learn those lessons, but, with regard to my actions in the employment of the individuals and the references that were given, they would not have been OK'd by me. I never would have OK'd those references and, had I been asked, I would have said so. That is why the two people are no longer employed.

Mr Kingston: I think the questions around what could have been passed on —.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Sorry, can we move on?

Mr Kingston: Can I raise two other matters?

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): I am happy for you to move on to another question, but I think the First Minister has —.

Mrs Little-Pengelly: May I just come in on that? Issues around the safeguarding of children are very relevant right across government.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): I am not disputing that.

Mrs Little-Pengelly: In terms of the work of the Department, I want to assure you that the safeguarding of children is at the heart of many of those inquiries.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): I totally agree.

Mrs Little-Pengelly: It is also important to say that many of the key messages coming across are around that duty of candour, communication and making sure that people are aware. Those are the key things that have come out of inquiries, and that we need to move forward to make sure that children and vulnerable people are protected. In a sense, if we have overseen a lot of those inquiries, that overseeing will only matter if the lessons are learned and we are moving it forward in a situation and atmosphere that is open, has candour and where people know what they need to know when they need to know it.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): OK. Thank you.

Go ahead with your next question, thank you.

Mr Kingston: Thank you, Chair. I want to refer to one of the priorities in the Programme of Government, which is the reform and transformation of public services. Will the Ministers say more about the work of the transformation board and delivery unit? Many people will point to the need for greater efficiency and savings within government in Northern Ireland and to the number of public bodies and multiple boards that we have over some sectors. How can we ensure that, where there is a bringing together of bodies, that will result in real savings to the public purse?

Mrs O'Neill: Well, that is what it is designed to do. It is important that we do not just look at the transformation unit in a singular way, because it is part of a wider policy approach and part of creating that culture where we are innovative and have agility, which is not traditionally how things have always been. The opportunity that we have for a wider reform package, including what the division might look like, is quite significant. We also know that they need to run alongside other areas. For us to have an efficient board, we need sufficient funding, which is the number-one priority of the Executive, and we continue to make that case.

We also need to have the interim transformation board and the work that it is doing. We have now employed a new chief science and technology adviser. We have an economy policy unit, Fiscal Council [Inaudible.]

A whole range of things need to align for us to do things more efficiently but, certainly, we think that there are opportunities to transform the way that we have always done things to get better outcomes because, ultimately, that is what we are trying to achieve.

Mrs Little-Pengelly: This is a big piece of work. It is one of the nine priorities, but it will be really important to all the priorities because we have to improve the way that we do business. We are very aware that, at times, there are inefficiencies. There are things that we could absolutely do better around policy development and also the implementation and delivery. We have only to look at the capital programme, for example, and the frustrations at times around big capital project roll-out. The longer it takes, the more money it costs. Delays cost more money. That money could be spent elsewhere on more ambitious capital programmes. There are really good reasons why, of course, we want to do things on time and on budget. We fail to do that time and time again.

From the beginning, we have very much been about learning from other jurisdictions around a delivery unit and transformation approach. It is about getting in and looking at your processes and how to do those better. It is also about identifying new ways of doing things, new ideas and new interventions that are designed and focused on making measurable progress against the targets that are set.

It could be a real game changer for government. We propose a delivery unit, which will sit in the centre and, as Michelle outlined. Alongside a whole range of other bodies, including the transformation board, and the work on the investment strategy for Northern Ireland (ISNI), it will look at past challenges and issues. That all comes together in a really ambitious programme of transformation and delivery. At the heart of it, it has to be about delivery, delivery, delivery for the Executive, despite the difficult Budget. We want to deliver, and people out there demand that we deliver, not just from the centre but across government, on the issues that really matter to them.

Mr Kingston: One of the nine priorities in the draft Programme for Government is to:

As all members and the Ministers will be aware, getting approval for NI Water connections is an issue that keeps coming up in planning applications. It is not just a matter for the Department for Infrastructure; it is very much a cross-departmental issue. What priority are the whole Executive giving to ensuring that there is the necessary investment to enable new developments to proceed?

Mrs O'Neill: We need proper financial resource in order to invest in building homes and in our waste water infrastructure. The announcement, earlier this year, from the Communities Minister that he will build only 400 homes next year was just not going to cut it. That was not acceptable, and it will not meet need. We also have a wider target, which we brought in previously, of building 2,500 houses every year. We need to reach for that target and beyond. We are committed to trying to find additional funding to build more social and affordable housing.

You are right: alongside that, investment in our waste water infrastructure is a must or we will not build anything in the next five to 10 years, because it is in such a dire state because of decades of austerity and underinvestment in our infrastructure. That picture must be turned around. We are determined to try to work with all Ministers. More widely than that, we need the Treasury to assist. If we are to be successful in transformation and in doing things like building homes and investing in our infrastructure, we need a financial model that allows us to do so.

Mrs Little-Pengelly: That is all being considered as part of the ISNI, which will go up to 2050. That is at the final stage. It is being considered by Ministers. It will deal with all the big capital issues, but we are also very aware, as Michelle outlined, of the budget constraints. The key things that feature in the strategy include affordable and social housing. For example, the Communities Minister could announce only 400 homes because that is the capital settlement that he had. We need to increase that, so we need to give him the funding to do that. Water and sewage fall under John O'Dowd's Department, but he can only do what he can on that if he gets the capital budget to do that. We know there will be a shortfall, but we have identified as big priorities: water and sewage infrastructure, social and affordable housing, investment in our public transport system and, of course, our education estate. We have seen the impact of not having the capital for the facilities that people need on, for example, special educational needs provision.

We have therefore identified those four big areas on the capital side. They will feature heavily in the investment strategy, but we also identified where the shortfall is. We have committed to looking at how to meet that shortfall both by making the case for Northern Ireland to the Treasury and by looking at ourselves and alternative forms of funding to make sure that we do what we can to fulfil the potential of the capital programme, which will be outlined in that strategy.

Mr Harvey: First Minister, deputy First Minister and junior Ministers, you are very welcome to Committee, as are your staff. Now that we have the draft Programme for Government and given the limited time of two and a half years left to run in this mandate, what are your priorities, and what will success look like?

Mrs O'Neill: You are right that it is a shortened mandate. It makes the Programme for Government unique, because we can deliver it over two and a half years, but we will also keep refreshing and adding to it. For me, success looks like hitting and making advances in the areas that we have set out. I am glad, because we are already delivering some of the things that we identified in the Programme for Government, such as the ending violence against women and girls strategy, the work on Lough Neagh and the first ever environmental improvement plan, which we signed off last week.

When I reflect on the first eight months of the Executive, I think that we have made a decent start to the delivery of what we brought forward. However, we have an awful lot more to do. We know that. We have just talked about some of those things, including the major infrastructure investment that is required. The Executive's collective work on the Programme for Government demonstrates that there is a willingness that I, maybe, have not witnessed before for people to work together to deliver on key areas such as special educational needs, which, we know, is so challenging alongside all the other public services, the health service and everything else that we have set out.

Mrs Little-Pengelly: Absolutely. From the outset, our discussions with Executive colleagues have shown that we can agree on so much that needs to be moved forward. The big challenges that we face throughout Northern Ireland are common across all communities. Our duty is to have a strong focus on delivery, whether on health, education, affordable and social housing or growing our economy. There is a lot of commonality in those areas. We will work best when we focus on those things, because — you are right — there are only two year and a half years left. Frankly, if we spend the entirety of those two and a half years focusing on the nine priorities, we will still not get done what we want to get done. There is plenty of work to get on with.

Obviously, the Budget constraint will be the biggest risk to delivery, but we are absolutely committed to making progress against all nine priorities. How much progress we make will be partly dependent on how we work with the system to drive the programme forward and the Budget that we receive. Unfortunately, we are unlikely to get a multi-year Budget in the autumn or for next year. That will hinder our ability to plan, but it will not stop us making the preparations to grow and scale up. The critical thing is to start what we can start and roll out what we can roll out.

As I said, the absolute focus for us is on delivery. If we are not delivering against the priorities, why are we here? We are here only to make a positive difference, and that is how we have tried to prioritise, difficult as it is. There are so many really worthy issues that we want to focus our time on, but we are conscious that there is only so much bandwidth. Let us focus on a small number of priorities, start the progress and make a tangible difference. That is what we will be working on in the next two and a half years.

Mr Harvey: I welcome the progress made, but there is still more to do. I think of working families and childcare. What else can the Executive do in that way?

Mrs Little-Pengelly: On childcare, I am really pleased that we were able to make the initial announcement about the interim package. We are conscious that that will not solve the issue of affordable childcare. It will help, and families appreciate that. There are now over 11,000 recipients of the subsidy support. It is really good that that is making a tangible difference right now, while the policy development is ongoing against the childcare strategy.

On the big things, the key is to get the substantive strategy right. As the Budget improves, hopefully, we will be in a position to scale up even the interim interventions over the next number of years in order to be in the best possible position to roll out an ambitious set of actions in the finalised strategies. Many of those are the same. You are right about housing, for example. The Communities Minister can do more right now if he has the additional money. Our job is to secure the additional capital money for him, but he could also do more, above and beyond that, through preparation, development and working with NI Water on sewerage. Those will remain barriers to an even more ambitious agenda. We need to get those things right in parallel, not sequentially, to drive forward against all the priorities.

We are conscious that there is work to do now that is not just about delivering on the ground. It is about the preparation, the work and the development, but that needs to happen in parallel with the actions that people want to see.

Mr Harvey: Have I time for one on a different topic?

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): I will maybe bring you back in, but I am conscious that four more members wish to ask questions.

Mr Harvey: That is fine. No problem. Thank you.

Ms Sugden: Thank you, Ministers. You will not be surprised to hear that I remain disappointed that there is no priority in relation to older people in the Programme for Government. I, maybe more than others, think that that issue is pertinent, although I know that others will fight their corner. We are an ageing population, however, and our public services will look very different on account of the demographic rapidly changing over the next 10 years. It is a failure to prepare if we do not include that in some form, even if is just to set out the actions that we need to take on that in the next mandate. I appreciate you both attending the recent event in the Long Gallery in relation to that and listening to people's views.

I am mindful that it is currently a draft Programme for Government. Is there any hope of older people being included in it, notwithstanding the fact that the UK Government has made disastrous decisions in relation to older people? We need to give value back to what is probably the most significant part of our population, and, if we leave that out of the Programme for Government, we are not doing that. I would like to hear your thoughts on that.

Mrs O'Neill: Thanks for that. We know that you are particularly interested in that area, and we were grateful to take the opportunity to attend the event in the Long Gallery. You can be assured that those present made sure that their views were known to the deputy First Minister and me, and it is right that they did that.

That is what the consultation is about. We have to reflect the fact that we have an ageing demographic in some way. Our society and our Programmes for Government need to reflect that. We will definitely take that on board in shaping the final document. I do not yet know what that final document will look like. We will consider everything in the round, but you have raised a fair and legitimate point and one that we will certainly look on favourably, albeit we will have to talk about that collectively in the Executive. I know that you are also keen to introduce some legislation on that, which will also be significant. You asked to engage with us on that legislation, and we are certainly up for having that conversation.

Mrs Little-Pengelly: As you know, it is always difficult to make choices for what to include in a draft Programme for Government. The calculation is very much around whether to include separate priorities not just for older people but for young people and people with disabilities. There are many key groups, and we are conscious that we need to deliver for everyone. Each of those groups has particular issues. We are conscious of that fact, but we made a decision to go with nine all-encompassing priorities. It is important that those priorities mainstream all the considerations for those groups. If we talk about social and affordable housing, for example, we need to take into account the needs of older people. At times, those needs will be different from the needs of younger people or those of young families, as we know from the structures for accessibility and need. That is common across most of the priorities in the draft Programme for Government. It is relevant even in the case of the priority on childcare. We know that a lot of grandparents end up providing free childcare for their grandchildren because childcare is simply unaffordable. They help out by taking on a huge number of caring roles that they might not have anticipated doing.

Maybe we need to communicate that message better to make sure that people — young people, people with disabilities, older people, rural people and urban people — know that all those things will need to be mainstreamed within the key priorities. If we need to more clearly reference that, we absolutely will. It is only a draft Programme for Government, and I have no doubt that we will hear about that very strongly. However, we want to send a clear message that all the priorities will be nuanced by reflecting on and making sure that we fully consider the needs of all those groups: the needs of the section 75 groups that are often referred to, but also those of everyone across society.

Ms Sugden: I take that point. We cannot satisfy everyone, particularly in a reduced mandate. However, I think it was the Chief Medical Officer of England and Wales, Chris Whitty, who said that you need to design your services around the demographic. The draft Programme for Government does not do that. The business of government is to provide good public services, and, if we are not mindful of his advice, particularly when considering health and social care, we will have a big problem in 10 years' time. We are already seeing the consequences of that, because we failed to forward plan.

I will ask you to reflect on another thing about the Programme for Government. I hear a lot of Ministers say that we do not need a Programme for Government in order to get on with the job of delivering. That is fine, but the Programme for Government is not only for Ministers and the Government; it is for the sectors and statutory agencies, which align their priorities to the Programme for Government. I therefore ask you to reflect on some Members saying that the Programme for Government is just for us and that we will get on with delivering in other ways. I know that statutory agencies are disappointed about that type of language, because that leaves them with the question of what they should do, and we cannot exist without them.

Do I have time for another question?

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Do you want them to reflect on that?

Ms Sugden: Yes, if they want to do that now. Otherwise they can come back to me on that.

Mrs O'Neill: I would not use the language that you talked about, so I agree with you. There are aspects of normal departmental business that would carry on regardless of whether there is a Programme for Government, but that is a different statement than saying, "The Programme for Government is just something that we do, but we are already doing this".

I agree with you that a Programme for Government has to mean something. It cannot sit on the shelf: it has to be a live document that sets out the things that we will work on collectively. I take your point.

Ms Sugden: OK. Thank you.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Do you want to ask another quick question? I am conscious that I did not give Brian a third one.

Ms Sugden: If you could come back —.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): I will come back to you at the end.

Ms Ní Chuilín: Welcome to the Committee. It is good to see you. There will not be a multi-year Budget this year or possibly next year, but there may be one in the year that this mandate dissolves. Has any thought been given to running the Programme for Government across mandates? There is a lot of good stuff in it. People are concerned about things not being in it that they would like to see included, but that is what the consultation is about. It certainly needs to be the basis of not just this mandate but others. I congratulate you. It took well over a decade for a Programme for Government to be agreed. That is my first question. I am curious about it.

My second question is about challenging what has been, frankly, a summer of hate in Belfast: a build-up of murals and posters; then, regrettably, the destruction of people's homes, businesses and property; intimidation of health and social care staff out of their homes; and children with disabilities and their families were not able to access their homes because of sectarianism. We have the awful, ongoing issues in east Belfast of Gaelic games not being able to be played because of threats and children being intimidated and unable to go to school and be taught through the medium of Irish. I am sure that the officials who are to give evidence after you will talk about all the work that they are doing — that is fine — and we have the police coming in after that, but what can we do collectively, as an Assembly and an Executive, to challenge this ongoing hate?

Mrs O'Neill: I will start with your first point. The Programme for Government is in draft. We will get to the final version. Everybody recognises that this is a short mandate. We have to keep refreshing and updating, because we should get to the point where we have delivered some of the actions and have to refresh. There should be continuity in a new mandate. There are things that we know that we will not complete in this mandate, so there is a natural follow-through. The point about Budgets is important because, as we know, for far too long, we have been limping from year to year with year-on-year Budgets. That is no way for anybody or any public service to plan. It is difficult for anybody to do that, even on a personal level. We are unclear about where the Treasury will go, but early indications are that it will be two years before we are in a multi-year cycle. By the end of this mandate, we should at least be in a situation where we have a multi-year Budget, and we should be able to align, for example, public-sector pay with that instead of public-sector workers waiting year-on-year for confirmation of where things stand. There are huge opportunities for us if we can get to that juncture.

In the summer, we saw horrific scenes of intimidation on our streets. That is not in any of our names: none of us wants to see that. We are an increasingly diverse society, and that is a very healthy thing that we should celebrate. Political leaders, in particular, should be waxing lyrical about it: that is the kind of society that we want to build. Where we see things that are wrong, we need to call them out. That goes for the scourge of racism, and it is the same for sectarianism when it comes to young people learning Irish and playing Gaelic. That is not acceptable: so many children are being educated through the medium of Irish, and they need to see that in their community. You referenced that in east Belfast in particular: it is totally unacceptable. The Irish language sector is thriving. Parents want to make choices about where their children are educated. We should encourage and support that and call out those who are involved in basic criminality and intimidation of people who are trying to advance good provision for people who want to take it up through the medium of Irish.

Mrs Little-Pengelly: I will add to what Michelle said on the Budget. A lot of people do not realise that, to some extent, we are dictated to by what Treasury does in relation to a single-year or multi-year Budget. If there is no multi-year Budget in Treasury, we cannot do a multi-year Budget.

Ms Ní Chuilín: Absolutely.

Mrs Little-Pengelly: That can be a frustration at times. There are planning assumptions that we can make, and we will do that, but, of course, we will not make very optimistic assumptions and then end up not being able to do what we want to do or what we planned for. There are assumptions. The cycle that we have is unfortunate. At the same time, there are, as I said at the beginning, things that we can do and plan for as we look forward. We cannot tie the hands of a new mandate. It would be wrong to do that. However, based on the feedback that we have so far, the nine priorities are very much in the space of where people's priorities are. They were put together by listening to people's concerns and what matters to them. We feel very confident that those nine priorities represent a lot of the concerns out there. It is not the totality — absolutely not. It is about prioritisation, and those are the key priorities that emerged. I would be surprised if a new Executive, in the next mandate in two and a half years' time, did not want to take forward that work and integrate it in a Programme for Government, but we cannot presume that at this point.

On the wider issue, hate is absolutely wrong, whether it is based on race or sectarianism. We should always remember that it is a very small minority of people who participate in that. I know that the vast majority of people across all communities throughout Northern Ireland stand united against hate, racism and sectarianism and, indeed, the violence or disorder that might flow from that. We have put this into perspective, but it is a big challenge that we need to tackle. We took the decision in the summer to show strong and united leadership across the Executive in order to send a very strong message. I have said this before, and I will say it again: we will always be there to listen to people's genuine concerns and issues — that is the role of politicians and government — but those are never an excuse or a justification for any hate, sectarianism, violence or disorder. As political leaders, we need to be clear about the clear difference in all this and to show leadership on the way forward. That is not the type of society that Northern Ireland wants to be. I know that, across all communities, it is neither condoned nor desired.

We are not complacent. We are very aware that there are things that we need to do: working with and showing support for the PSNI and, going back to the very first question, working with the programmes that we have. This is what Together: Building a United Community is all about and what those interventions are all about: bringing people together, tackling myths, tackling prejudice and creating friendships and robust relationships across, between and in communities, no matter where they are. That is what we will do in our review of T:BUC. We will integrate the race actions and race relations issues more closely into that, as well as, as I mentioned, rolling forward some of the FICT review points. There is an opportunity to get this right and to build on the good work. I have no doubt that you are about to hear from the officials behind me that that has been happening. However, there is more to do be done, and it is up to us to push that forward.

Ms Sheerin: Thanks to you all. It is lovely to have you here. I want to ask about the ending violence against women and girls strategy as well. I appreciate the detail that you have already given. I was delighted to see the strategy's publication last week and the progress that has been made. Even the visual of the four of you, as Ministers, goes some way towards challenging the norms and attitudes that, we know, ultimately, end up in femicide and violence against women. I would like to hear some detail from you on the real-life implications for people who have already suffered gender-based violence and for the next generation of women and girls who, I hope, will not experience what we have all experienced.

Mrs O'Neill: Sadly, we cannot change anybody's experience, particularly women and girls who have experienced violence. What we can do, however, is do what we are doing, which is to try to build a whole-society approach that says no to misogyny, no to everyday sexism and no to all the challenging attitudes and cultures that lead to violence against women and girls.

I am really proud of the piece of work that we have done. As I said, I am so proud of the way in which it was brought about. People who are on the front line delivering services were part and parcel of the delivery. I wish that we could flick a switch to make it stop, but that is not the reality. The reality is that it will take time. The interventions that have been set out, particularly for the first two years, and the action plan are deliberately targeted at areas that, we think, we can reach quickly. It is about consistency of messaging. What is violence against women and girls? What does it look like? It is about ensuring that every child growing up today understands what that looks like. I do not want to say that it will take a generation to change things, but there is more education now than ever before, and the work that we are doing now with the strategy will enhance that and make sure that our young people are equipped with the tools to be able to see this, see it around them and support one another. There is also the wider society piece: this is not down to women to fix, nor is it down to policing. This is a whole-society approach, and it is about prevention, which goes to the heart of what we are trying to achieve: creating a society that is free from violence against women and girls. That is why the whole focus of the strategy is around the prevention piece.

Mrs Little-Pengelly: At the heart of this is attitudinal change. We know from a public policy perspective that attitudinal change is one of the toughest things to try to bring about. I am sure that that is as true for any Department as it is from an Executive Office perspective. However, one of the remarkable things since we launched the strategy is the number of women who have come forward and shared their very personal stories with me. I am sure that is the same for Michelle and the junior Ministers. Women felt empowered to tell their experiences, and they wanted us to understand the difficulties that they have faced in a real, practical way. Very often, those difficulties can cover everything: trying to leave, getting the funding support to get new accommodation and navigating through a court system — everything from the property that is in a house to domestic violence issues or criminal charges that have been brought. There are so many different elements. I have been really surprised when listening to those women's stories. They face not just one or two things but a whole range of practical challenges.

The message that those women send to us is that they really think that this strategy is a good piece of work. It is so necessary, and they want it to happen. A lot of this is at the attitudinal and the big policy level, but there are also real, practical things that need to be done to support women in that situation that they are not finding it easy to do.

I will bring Pam in, just very briefly. Pam has been engaging a lot with Women's Aid and other organisations on that practical side of it. We need to do more on that, as well as working with Health and Communities to support women in the community who face this today.

Mrs Cameron (Junior Minister, The Executive Office): Thanks, Minister, and thank you Chair. It is good to see you all and good to be here in these lovely refurbed Committee rooms. It is not like the bad old days on the Health Committee, Paula.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): That is right.

Mrs Cameron: We worked very well together in the past, collaboratively, and with Carál in particular on the Autism Bill. It is good to see. I have to get a wee plug in: it is good to see the reviewer role finally rolled out. The reviewer has hit the ground running and done some superb work so far. It is good to see that and good to be here today.

We are talking about the EVAWG strategy. Everywhere we go, I tell everybody that I liken Aisling and me to the Spice Girls, and I say that she is Sporty Spice and I, because I have been here for so long, am Old Spice. In 2011, I made my maiden speech, which was around domestic violence. Back then, you were not even talking about domestic and sexual: you were talking only about domestic violence. I remember that it was a superb opportunity to raise awareness of the issue, because we were so far behind. Despite the funding difficulties, looking at where we are now, awareness is through the roof. There have been horrific murders and incidents, and they continue, which is wrong and needs to be addressed, but the awareness, I think, is at an all-time high, which is wonderful in itself. What the First Minister and deputy First Minister were saying is right: this is attitudinal and requires societal change, and, going forward, we all own responsibility for it.

This issue also touches on Claire's point on age. It covers all age ranges. I remember that one of the first stories that I was told — it was not a story; it was the first experience that I was ever told about — was about a lady in a nursing home. She was in her 80s and living in a joint room with her husband. This lady had dementia, but her husband did not. She was turning up with bruises and injuries, and nobody could understand how that could the case in the nursing home. When the GP was brought in, they were able to say that, yes, there is a 60-year history of domestic violence in this family. The family and the home — everybody — knew about it. The really sad thing is that the lady was moved out of the room to give her husband peace so that he could sleep at night, but he was raping and beating her at night in that home.

We have come from afar, but these issues spread across all age ranges, and it is incumbent on us all, as a society, to take charge of it and, as families, to recognise, see and speak out and say what is wrong. That is why it is so important to have men also speaking out and saying, "No, that is not right, and you should not say things like that". It is important. Sometimes we can think that it is a little trivial to refer to how people speak to each other and how we refer to each other, but it means something. That is all educational, and there is so much work to go forward with.

I am very excited about where we are with the whole EVAWG process. The organisations that we have been able to visit and work with and that we will continue to visit and work with are incredible. The co-design process has been fantastic, and we have seen a wonderful outcome from that. I wish that we had all the money in the world to do much more, much more quickly. However, we are making good headway and will continue to do so.

Ms Sheerin: Thanks for that, Pam. My next question is around the junior Ministers, the role that you have played since coming into office and what sort of work you have been doing. I do not know whether you, Pam, or junior Minister Reilly wants to answer that.

Ms Reilly: I can start and try to fit as much from eight months as I can into about a minute. I echo what Pam said: this is my first time in front of the Committee so thank you all very much.

Since taking office in February, junior Minister Cameron and I have been out and about as much as we can. For us, it is important that not only the First Minister and deputy First Minister are represented through us as much as possible but that the Executive Office is represented in everything that it does. That is important. I said earlier that we are out, we are listening and we are accessible. Often, people think that things happen on the hill but that nobody can get speaking to Ministers and elected representatives. That is not the case: we are accessible, and we want to be out and about and engaging and listening as much as we possibly can.

I could touch on a lot of things that we have done, but I will mention a couple of people. We visited the Schools of Sanctuary, Women's Aid, as Pam spoke about, and were fortunate to go out to the office in Brussels. We were able to engage with the officials out there and the work that they are doing. We were also at the Somme commemorations — it is important that we reflect our shared history — and all four of us went to a women's football game at Windsor, which was reciprocated when they came to my home club of St Paul's.

Ms Ní Chuilín: I noticed that, Aisling. You are very parochial. [Laughter.]

Ms Reilly: I do not need to rehash my love — my grá — for sport and how it brings people together and enhances lives. I have been to Trade NI business events in Dublin and London. I delivered the Executive's message that we are open for business, trade and investment and that we want people to come here, live here, work here and be proud of the North. We have been to North/South Ministerial Council meetings and the British-Irish Council — you name it, we have been there; we have done it all. It has been a hectic eight months, but I am enjoying it, and I hope that you can see that we are enjoying it. I also hope that the public can see that, because it is about us representing the people who elected us to here. That is important for us.

Mrs Cameron: It has been a fantastic privilege for me to have this role. You feel it on the ground when you go to see people. The appreciation and love that you receive for your time and attention to them are incredible: it is a wonderful feeling. You get that as an MLA when you are helping people and listening to them. Sometimes, that can be the most valuable thing — listening and letting people tell you what they need and want to tell you. It is good. I will not repeat what Aisling said, but the role is incredibly busy. There are lots of events, speaking engagements, engaging with stakeholders and lobbyists and feeding that back into the system.

I will give you an example of one meeting that we had. Apologies, but I was out for a few weeks looking after my husband, who has not been well. Before I went off, we met people from Auditory Verbal UK, which is an incredible group. I was able to meet them again, along with the Children's Commissioner, the other day, after I came back. It was wonderful to hear the experiences of children who have had specific and different training that is not commonplace — it is only through word of mouth that people have found out about it. It is training for children from birth to five years old. That training, along with their cochlear implants, is enabling those children to speak as you and I speak. You would not know that they are profoundly deaf, but they are. It is incredible enablement, which is promoting independence and giving them the fullest of lives. When I hear about such experiences, I am able to take them back and write to the Health Minister to ask, "What are you doing about this? That is a really important thing that you should be looking at. It is truly transformative and the ideal type of thing that we should be looking to invest in". The savings that that could bring about in the system are incredible. There was one young girl there called Katie. She had —.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): I am sorry, Pam. I do not mean to move you on. It sounds brilliant, but we have one more member to get to.

Mrs Cameron: Yes. Apologies. I was just going to say that that little girl, a 15-year-old, was completely independent and would not take extra time in an exam even though she was profoundly deaf. That is how empowering that is. There is much good work going on.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Wonderful.

Mrs Cameron: Much too much to tell you about today [Laughter.]

Mr Gaston: We have already talked about the article in today's 'The Irish News' — or touched upon it, I should say — that highlights the fact that, in February 2023, First Minister, you were at an event in Stormont where Michael McGonagle was present.

Ms Reilly: McMonagle.

Mr Gaston: McMonagle was present. It also points out that, later the same month, Michael McMonagle met Paul Maskey MP in Westminster, so we know that what Mr Murphy said last night was not true. First Minister, you have said that you did not see him at the event. Going by the photographs published today, I have to ask whether junior Minister Reilly can say the same. Can you detail what your interaction was with Michael McMonagle on that day?

Mrs O'Neill: I will take the question. I think that I have already dealt with that matter, Chair, to be fair.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): I think that you have, too, yes.

Mrs O'Neill: I was horrified that anybody would give a reference in that scenario. Had they asked for my permission, it would not have happened. Earlier, I set out the rest of it clearly. If there are any questions that relate to the Executive Office, I am very happy to take them.

Mr Gaston: Just before we go off that topic, have you checked whether the references provided were on Sinn Féin headed paper?

Mrs O'Neill: I have confirmed clearly that I did not give any OK to any references being given. I would not have seen them, given that I did not even know that they existed until the matter came to my attention last week.

Mr Gaston: Did you ask for a copy of them?

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): OK, sorry. You said that you had only one question. Move on, please. Thank you.

Mr Gaston: Máiría Cahill has cited your handling of the Michael McMonagle case as a reason why women have no faith in your ability to lead the ending violence against women and girls strategy. Last week, during Question Time, I reminded you of what you said on Radio Ulster about the Máiría Cahill case. You said:

I will give you the opportunity once again, First Minister: do you believe Máiría now?

Mrs O'Neill: Of course, I do. I would be really interested in this conversation if you actually cared about the feelings of any woman out there. I am absolutely committed to leading on our strategy to end violence against women and girls. It is absolutely what is required in our society. We need to move to that preventative approach. We have launched an excellent strategy that has the support of so many groups out there that are actually on the ground doing that work. I am determined to lead that work, as I have done to this point. I will continue to do so.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): OK. I will draw a line there.

Mrs O'Neill: Thank you.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Many members had the opportunity to ask only two questions. You got three, Timothy, so —.

Ms Ní Chuilín: None of them related to TEO.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Yes.

Ms Ní Chuilín: They need to be related to the Department. That is how it works.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Thank you.

Thank you, Ministers, for coming. We hope that you will be back in front of us in the next few months to give us more updates on your work. We appreciate what you have given us for now. Thank you.