Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Good afternoon. Thank you for giving up your time to brief the Committee this afternoon. I will give some quick introductions before we make a start. We have Fintan Murphy, the chief executive of the Catholic Schools' Trustee Service (CSTS); Maria Maguire, the director of pupil services and preventative curriculum at St Ronan's College, Lurgan; and Mairead Greene, the head of year and relationships and sexuality education (RSE) coordinator at St Ronan's College, Lurgan. You are very welcome. It is very welcome to have teachers and practitioners here to brief the Committee. We do not always get the opportunity to hear from those who are directly in the profession, so that is really welcome.

We are going to move into our evidence session. You have provided us with your briefing paper, which is much appreciated. We suggest an initial presentation or opening remarks of up to 10 minutes, but by no means do you need to fill the 10 minutes: we want to leave as much time as possible for questions from members. We are looking at 30 minutes to 40 minutes for the session, so, when it comes to members' questions, we could be in the realm of three minutes or so per enquiry. The key is for members to get to their questions quickly and for you to get to the answers quickly so that we can get through as much evidence as possible. Please do not be offended if I stop anybody in mid flow; we are going to try to cover as much ground as we possibly can. I am very happy to hand over to you.

Mr Fintan Murphy (Catholic Schools' Trustee Service): Thank you, Nick. I thank the Committee for inviting us along today. We will give a brief introduction, as you suggested, and we will take it from there.

The Catholic Schools' Trustee Service works to assist the trustees of the Catholic family of schools with their responsibilities. One aspect of that work relates to the development of the schools' Catholic ethos on the basis of the personal teachings and witness of Christ.

Where relationships and sexuality education is concerned, we have collaborated closely with schools and others to develop a range of supports, including guidance documents, curricular materials and staff training materials, and we have delivered training sessions to governors, school leaders and teachers. All the work that we have done is detailed in the pack that I sent.

Catholic schools seek to equip young people with skills, attitudes and values so that they become confident, capable, critical and discerning thinkers who are ready to contribute to and shape their world and to contribute to the common good. A Catholic school recognises that upholding and protecting the dignity, self-esteem and self-worth of the individual provides a learning and teaching environment that enables their human potential to flourish.

It is with that understanding that Catholic education seeks to develop the whole person. One element of that development relates to RSE, as our human sexuality is integral to who we are as individuals. Central to our understanding of the human person is that we are all loved by God and created by God in his image and likeness. As such, every individual has innate dignity, deserves to be treated with respect at all times and must treat others with the same respect. In a world in which our young people are constantly bombarded by negative and potentially damaging images and messages relating to the human person, that Christian world view offers them a positive understanding of who they are as valued individuals.

Catholic schools deliver RSE in a morals and values framework that is based on love of God, love of self and love of neighbour and that encourages the young people to explore and develop faith, tolerance, justice, compassion, love, integrity, forgiveness and respect. The framework is provided to the young people invitationally and allows them, through discussion and debate, to explore choices, decisions and consequences of particular actions so that, as they mature, they reach their own clear understanding of themselves.

Each school serves the needs of a particular school community. As such, it is appropriate that the RSE policy and curriculum are delivered with the needs of that specific community in mind. It is therefore important that schools continue to have the autonomy to determine the content, timing and delivery of appropriate RSE topics. While the RSE component is identified as an element of learning for life and work at post-primary level and of personal development and mutual understanding at primary-school level, an RSE programme in a Catholic school, like the Catholic ethos, will permeate all areas of the curriculum.

Ms Maria Maguire (Catholic Schools' Trustee Service): We understand from parents and carers that they are the first and most important educators of their children and that the school assists them in that role. School communities are the family of families, and all engage in determining the school's curriculum, particularly in areas of development such as RSE. That involves schools consulting with parents and carers on the policy and curricular offer for RSE, where they wish to ensure that young people have the appropriate preparation for adult life ahead.

We are mindful that parents, in exercising their right to have their children educated in a way that is consistent with their philosophical and religious belief, have chosen to send their children to a Catholic school. We encourage schools to engage fully with parents in a consultation process and to make them aware of the curricular content that is offered not only in RSE but in the context of the school's clear rationale and policy. In our school, for example, through the parent forum, parents said that they feel that they do not always know what is coming through in the preventative curriculum. We have moved that forward to map the preventative curriculum across the seven-year journey and to present it to parents and children in a pupil- and parent-friendly version that is put out at the beginning of each term. That has been a good way to engage parents in what we are doing.

That approach can bring challenges. Indeed, the growing multicultural nature of our society has brought additional challenges on cultural norms, requiring schools to engage in discussion, both seeking and understanding, to reassure parents. In some situations, that will result in compromise, whereby a small number of children may not access parts of the proposed programme. The experience of many schools is that that compromise often results in parents reflecting on their decisions and agreeing to their child's participation in future. It also ensures that good relationships between family and school can be maintained, which is in the best interest of the child.

To ensure transparency, our schools are encouraged to make the detailed RSE programme available to parents, which offers them reassurance for that reason. All the CSTS materials are publicly accessible on our website, and we encourage our schools to take a similar approach.

We take into account the students and young people, and our schools exist to meet the needs of the communities, particularly those of our students. The school staff, collaborating with parents, are best placed to know the individual needs and circumstances of those students. Again, from a school perspective, we encourage using our pupil voice, which we do in our school. We use it regularly to ask pupils what their needs are and to reflect on the programmes that are offered to that we can tailor them to suit the needs of the young people they work with.

In assessing those needs, the voice of the child is important, as it is with all areas of school life, and we encourage all our schools to ensure that the views of the young people are considered as part of the planning and delivery of RSE. We note the new Education and Training Inspectorate (ETI) framework, which has identified learning participation, meaningful consultation, learner-informed provision and active participation and engagement in decision-making. Such an approach to RSE is most effective when the school has the autonomy to determine the policy and the curricular content and can specifically tailor them to meet the needs of their pupils.

Ms Mairead Greene (Catholic Schools' Trustee Service): Research has shown that young people want RSE delivered by the people they know in a confident and informed manner. Schools will, however, want to determine whether the use of external providers can enhance the school's offer. They may be used because of specific expertise on a topic or as an opportunity towards skilling up staff. All schools that use external providers are encouraged to meet the provider to ensure that any programme that is offered fits into the school policy and the wider RSE curricular offer. At all times, the providers should be accompanied by school staff, who can, as part of follow-up activities, explore the topics in an environment in which some young people may feel more comfortable.

A school RSE curriculum that seeks to develop the whole person will ensure, as part of the consultation process, that the views of all in the school community are sought and considered. The curriculum that is offered across their time in school should provide the young people with a comprehensive understanding of all aspects of RSE that are appropriate to their age and understanding. The curricular programmes that CSTS offers to schools cover a broad range of appropriate topics for the school to use. At primary level, that includes, for example, me, my family, my friends; keeping safe; growing and changing; decisions and consequences; puberty and new life. At the post-primary level, topics covered include good and bad choices; building relationships; body image; consent; love and intimacy; sex and marriage; fertility awareness; pornography; and women's safety. All the topics are explored through stories and scenarios, where the young people can discuss the Christian and other perspectives on those issues.

How the topics are covered is determined by the school policy, formulated in consultation with the wider school community and in consideration of and sensitive to the personal circumstances of the young people and their families. It is important to note that the RSE curriculum is only one aspect of the wider preventative and pastoral curriculum that a school offers. Time limitation is one significant factor in the school's determination of what can be covered in a curriculum, which is about not just the acquisition of knowledge, understanding and skills but the development of attitudes, beliefs and values about sexual identity, relationships and intimacy.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Thank you all for that. That was a helpful opening presentation, and it was helpful to hear directly from schools about the priority that is given to engagement with parents and young people. Hearing some of that was welcome. I want to pick up on some of the discussions in our previous evidence session with the Children's Commissioner so that we can get a sense of your organisation's view. The Children's Commissioner set out the role of values in RSE that is delivered in schools, and, helpfully, that was agreed by all members. The Children's Commissioner also set out a scenario of an age-appropriate, scientifically accurate, comprehensive RSE curriculum that has space around it to discuss values, moral and ethical considerations. What is the Catholic Schools' Trustee Service's view of that approach to delivering RSE? I am not asking you to endorse the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Children and Young People's (NICCY) views on any other issue; I just mean that aspect of our conversation.

Mr Murphy: All our education is delivered in the context of a particular set of values. We offer a value-based education process in our schools. RSE is just another area of the curriculum that we deliver in that way. In answer to your question, while we offer the young people a particular perspective, we ensure that they have a conversation about other perspectives, be they their views or those of other people. For example, the legislative framework is included in our programme. The young people are made fully aware of all the information that we believe should be available to them, but we put it in a particular framework for them to consider this: "What does that mean for me as an individual?".

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): That is helpful. I want to expand on that. Thank you for the briefing paper that you sent through. There is a link in the paper to the post-primary RSE guidance booklet that you have produced. The document states that the values:

Can you give a bit more detail on how the resources and guidance that you provide to schools and boards of governors ensure that the lived experiences of a diverse range of young people are clearly addressed in the delivery of RSE?

Mr Murphy: One of the panel members might want to explain one of those topics a little bit. We tend to introduce topics through a video clip or a story, and then the young people have an opportunity to discuss that. Does any panel member want to take us through that?

Ms Greene: Yes. We have our curriculum mapped from year 8 to year 14. I will speak about consent. That can be addressed at a very young age in year 8 or year 9, not in a sexual sense but in the sense that it is OK to say no. At that age in post-primary school, friendships from primary school might have broken down. It is OK not to be friends with somebody any more, and it is OK to say, "No, I don't think we should be friends any more". That is where we start to introduce the vocabulary of consent and to talk about what it is.

Consent is brought up again in year 12, when we look at women's safety through, as Fintan says, scenarios and resources. We look at sexual harassment through a scenario. For example, you are at a party where a male comes over and puts his hand around your waist as an informal get-to-know-you. That is an opportunity for discussion, because that has been done without your consent. The children are educated on how to be active about that. How could we approach it differently? Then, in year 13, which is the post-16 stage so pupils are a bit older, we really talk about consent in the legal sense and about sexual activity. That is all done within our value-based education that we have in Catholic education.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): That is fine. I am happy to leave it at that.

Mr Sheehan: I want to come at it from a slightly different angle. What is your organisation's view of the legislation on the delivery of RSE?

Mr Murphy: The current legislation very specifically says that RSE should be delivered in the context of the ethos of the school. For us, that is very important, because all our education is delivered in the context of the ethos of our schools. The fact that the prescribed content is fairly minimal is helpful, because, if we want to engage the young people, their parents and the community, we want to know what is important to them right now.

For example, when we produced the Flourish materials, which are our primary materials, given that the materials are produced for use right across this island, some of the upper primary materials were originally designed for children who are a year older at school in the Republic of Ireland. We had a conversation with our schools about whether we should take those items out, and some of our schools said, "We would not cover that. Our children are not ready for it". Other schools said, "Please leave it in. In the context of our school, we have a reason why we do need to cover it". The flexibility in the curriculum allows schools to do that.

Having a minimal-content curriculum allows schools to look at some of those issues in depth. Take the example that Mairead just talked about. Consent could be one 10-minute conversation saying, "Legally, you can't do this unless you ask and somebody agrees to consent". That is a consent curriculum, or we can have a consent curriculum, as Mairead described, that is the whole process of understanding, "What does consent mean for me? How do I understand it for another person? When I say no, are they clear what I mean by that?". Allowing the young people time to go through a full understanding of something like consent is a significant piece of work that sits within the wider preventative curriculum that the school offers. Where schools wish to look at some topics in more detail than others, the flexibility in the current curriculum allows them to do that and allows them to be responsive to the young people. If you look through some of our training video materials, you will see some of the young people and, indeed, some of the teachers in our schools describing conversations with the young people in school where the young people said that they wanted to learn more about whatever the topics are. Having a minimal-content curriculum allows the school the flexibility to look at some topics in greater detail than maybe it would be able to do otherwise.

Mr Sheehan: Some of the topics or aspects of the RSE curriculum are not in line with the teaching of the Catholic Church, but can you give an assurance that the schools that are under your remit will still be able to deliver comprehensive RSE in line with the legislation? You talked about students wanting to talk about different issues and how you have the flexibility to do that. For example, if children or young people wanted to talk about abortion, would the schools under your remit be willing to have that discussion?

Mr Murphy: Our schools have covered topics like abortion for a long time, long before the current legislation was brought in. In fact, a lot of our schools cover it as part of a GCSE ethics module. There really are not any topics as such that our schools would have a difficulty delivering. They deliver them from a particular perspective, so, if our schools were talking about abortion, they would talk about an understanding of human life from conception to death, but they would also talk about the reality that, legally, it is possible to have an abortion. They would encourage the students to get involved in conversations and discussions where they ask, "What does that mean for me? How do I feel about these issues?". So, there really are not any areas that could not be covered, but, from a values-based and a faith-based education point of view, we think that it is important that we offer the children a particular view not only invitationally but by allowing them to discuss the fact that there are other views. Other individuals in the class might have different views, and certainly others in society might have different views. All those are available. Mairead, do you talk a little about your —?

Ms Greene: Yes. In year 12, abortion is set in the context of a unit called matters of life and death, which also looks at assisted dying. It looks at the whole journey from conception to death and all the issues that are around that. There is a series of lessons in year 12. It starts off with personhood, looking at pro-life matters. It then goes into other groups that may disagree with the Catholic view on that. The pupils will evaluate that. They look at both sides of the argument. They look at the Anglican Church, feminists and humanists. They look at all groups and all views and are able to make an argument for or against. That is what they do on abortion. They then look at the legislation in the UK and the Republic of Ireland.

I suppose that the reason that they do that is to offer alternative perspectives on the issue and to engage in dialogue with each of them respectively. In that context, we will not avoid teaching what the Church professes, which is Catholic beliefs on the dignity of the child.

Ms Maguire: I will add that we have found that a lot of the flexibility in the curriculum comes about through issues in the media, such as misogyny in the reporting on Andrew Tate. There is an attitude that personal, social, health and economic education (PSHE) has to be taught. I know that there is a PSHE curriculum for that, but we have not necessarily seen it happen on the ground. With certain topics, we need to have the ability to respond to what we see happening on the ground. That is why having that flexibility in the curriculum is so important.

Mr Sheehan: Thank you.

Mrs Guy: Thank you for your time, and I appreciate your answers so far. You referred to the RSE materials that you have produced. How did you engage in collaboration with young people when you were developing those materials?

Ms Maguire: We have pupil voice, which is very much encouraged throughout all schools.

Mr Murphy: I will take you through the CSTS materials, and the others can talk about their school's experiences. We have primary-school and post-primary-school materials. Some of the materials were initially drawn up using samples of activities that were then used by young people with their teachers in schools so that the teachers could report back to us to say how useful they found them. Parents were involved in that conversation as well.

We piloted our post-primary materials in the previous school year. At the end of the school year, we identified a small number of schools to be given a survey to send to their students. Separately, the students and the staff have been able to comment on what they want to see included as we go on to develop the Key Stage 4 materials. The student voice has been directly involved in discussing what students feel is missing from or needs to be part of their curriculum as we develop it.

We created the materials to be used online in part. Doing that allows us to hear what schools and students want and to evolve the materials as issues arise. There are a few issues in schools now, such as social media influencers, that we would not have been thinking about five years ago. The materials being available as an online resource means that we can modify them and bring in new modules over time as schools' needs evolve.

Do you want to say a bit about your school's experience?

Ms Maguire: It is great to have such materials to use as a starting point so that we are not starting from scratch and having to come up with things. It also means that we can listen to all the evidence from other schools, Schools may say, "We have used those materials. They are good and have proved useful, but you may need to adjust them".

We very much refer to the fact that we use our pupil voice in the school. When we run a programme initially, we will ask whether there are any topics that the pupils might be interested in covering in the coming year. We will then try to incorporate those topics into the programmes. At the end, we reflect on them and ask the pupils, "What was good? What wasn't of any use to you?".

As Fintan said, our lives are so different from theirs. When we are planning the curriculum, regardless of how in touch with the pupils we think that we are, we need to recognise that they are so different from us. Their experience is so far removed from ours. If we do not ask the children questions and engage them, we will never give them what they need. It is therefore so important to keep dialogue open and to have that conversation, because we cannot begin to imagine what their lives are like.

Mrs Guy: Thank you.

Mr Martin: I had visions of Fintan doing a TikTok about this. [Laughter.]

That would be quite something.

Mr Murphy: Your thinking that I have that ability gives me great confidence. [Laughter.]

Mr Martin: I am sure that you can find that somewhere deep within you, Fintan.

What value or importance would you guys attach to the ethos of a school, particularly to schools in the Catholic sector? How important is the ethos?

Mr Murphy: In a general sense, every school, every business and every organisation has worked out that, if we can all agree on how to do something, we will do it better. The ethos of our schools is very much focused on gospel values, so all our schools have a standard to compare themselves with and against which to assess how good they are at particular things, how well they are developing in particular areas and in what areas they need to develop further. The ethos of our schools is, "The individual is most important. Our school is focused on ensuring that every individual in it feels a sense of respect, dignity and support and that everybody in the school is there to help meet their needs and develop them". In that context, we are clear about what we are doing. The ethos is also made clearer for parents. When parents decide — we mentioned this in the briefing — to choose a Catholic school for their child, they make that choice for a particular reason. Parents make choices about all kinds of schools, and they make them for good reasons. It is important that our schools demonstrate our ethos and that we offer that ethos to students and parents. Parents then select a school based on what it is that they expect it to offer. We have a contract with the whole school community. We say, "If you join our school, this is the package that you are signing up for, and we will do our best to deliver it to you".

Mr Martin: Is that important? Fintan, you described it as a package and a contract. We talked about transformation earlier. Some of that transformation is about transforming the number of schools and sectors that we have. Parents can choose schools that have a particular ethos, value system or value base or that teach from a particular perspective. Other parents, however, may decide, "That's not quite what I want for my child, so I would prefer my child to be educated here". Is having that choice important? It sounded as though you tailed off when answering my question. Is it important that parents have the ability to pick a school that reflects their personal values, ethos or faith?

Mr Murphy: Yes. If I put it in this context —.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): May we have a brief answer? We are against the clock.

Mr Murphy: Yes. Let me put it in this context. It is perfectly acceptable to support Liverpool, Manchester United —

Mr Brooks: No, it is not.

Mr Murphy: — Spurs or whichever team you wish to support.

Mr Martin: The Committee may take —.

Mr Murphy: Other options exist. They are different teams, but they all play football. We have different schools. People can choose to send their children to one school in a sector rather than to another. Alternatively, they can choose other sectors for their children. Our sectors have always been a conversation piece in Northern Ireland. If you look, however, at all the school types and choices in other jurisdictions, such as in England, you will see that many more choices are available than are available here.

Mrs Mason: We have heard from organisations that go into schools to deliver RSE. What is your view on that?

Mr Murphy: Schools are trying to provide young people with the broadest curriculum offer available. They can do that by using their own staff or by employing additional expertise. With some of what I will call the newer topics, or with topics that people feel less comfortable teaching, the young people have said that they want the person who is delivering the topic to be knowledgeable and confident and, ideally, to be one of their own teachers. The ideal that we start from is to have the topic taught by a knowledgeable, confident member of staff, but if we do not have that level of knowledge and confidence within our staffing complement, we will perhaps bring in an external organisation to help boost that knowledge. We always say that, before one is brought in, a school should make sure that the organisation understands what the school is trying to deliver, and the school should clarify what it offers. There are so many overlaps, however. For example, if you look at the preventative curriculum, you will see that the NSPCC offers very specific pieces that become part of a school's RSE programme. It delivers only elements of it. As long as the students are clear that the staff have brought in a programme for a purpose and that they will have an opportunity afterwards to talk about and explore the issues further, that programme can be very useful. In the main, however, it is about skilling up the school's teachers so that we hopefully get to a point at which the vast majority of the programme can be delivered by the teachers whom the students are used to teaching them day-to-day.

Mairead, do you want to talk a little bit about your experience?

Ms Greene: Yes. Our experience is that we strive to deliver as much as we can through our curriculum and our staff. If we bring in an external provider, that is done to enhance the experience and what is being taught in the classroom. Previously, we have had Relate NI in to discuss issues with our children. When we have an external agency in, we have a service level agreement with it. We meet to discuss the ethos of the school so that, if an agency is coming into our school, its message is still very much set in the context of our values and ethos so that it is consistent for the children.

Ms Maguire: It is sometimes nice to have a different voice come in, but, ideally, we are looking for the voice to come from the people whom the children know, whom they are familiar with and whom they are confident about engaging with and asking their questions to. We talked about training previously. I am not sure whether you are all aware that, for the majority of teachers who are teaching elements of the preventative curriculum, it is an add-on. Over time, we have not been getting training. We have not been getting the resources that are needed for there to be confident, competent delivery of those elements. It can be challenging for teachers to deliver them. We are just not getting that level of support in schools at the minute. The materials are there, and they are great, but we need staff development.

Mrs Mason: What do you think needs to be done to give staff that confidence so that schools do not have to bring in external providers? I know that you are saying that there will always be niche areas, such as teaching about human trafficking. It is difficult for a teacher to know everything in depth, but I understand that children may feel more trust towards a teacher. What do you feel needs to be done to give teachers that confidence and support?

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Can you give a brief answer to that one? We are against the clock.

Ms Maguire: There really will have to be investment. I have mapped the curriculum across the whole seven years for all the preventative elements. You are welcome to have a look at that. RSE is a central part, but there are so many other elements involved. It is like being a jack of all trades and a master of none. That is how the area is being pigeonholed at the minute. There needs to be investment in specialists, either by bringing in specialist staff or by having specialist training for staff. If you want to see results, that has to be examined.

Mr Brooks: Thanks for your presentation. It has been enlightening. It has helped us get away from the idea that those who are interested in faith being a factor in all of this are trying, in some way, to indoctrinate children or shut out other views from being heard. From a faith point of view, on all manners of issues, that does not work. If it did work, our Churches would probably be brimming in a way in which they are probably not at present. It is about encouraging that discussion and about ensuring that everybody can have a respectful understanding of one another while also voicing their lived experiences, as the Chair said earlier. You have shone a bit of light on that.

I have just one question. I am interested in the opt-out. We often talk about whether we should have a parental opt-out. In your briefing, you talked about the nature of the opt-out and the withdrawal process — reading it, I have some sympathy — and how the opt-out, once it is applied, can apply across the year. It is a bit like what I said earlier in Committee. We are often talking past each other. We all care about so many of the issues, such as consent, safeguarding and all of that. We want kids to have that information, but there are elements that are more controversial, and we all know what those elements are. If we were to have an opt-out, how would you reform the opt-out system to allow it to be more flexible so that it does not affect those crucial issues that, I would say, the vast majority of parents would want their kids to receive education on, regardless of whether they are religious?

Mr Murphy: We would start from the position that parents are the first educator. Parents know their children best and should be given the opportunity to express a particular view about particular things. Most parents also have confidence in their children's school. When I was a school principal and said that we were going to teach x, y or z, the vast majority of parents knew that what I was doing was in their children's best interests. There are always, however, a small number of parents who do not agree. One of the issues that has come up in schools more recently is that we have a lot more children and families who have come from other cultures into Northern Ireland. They have particular views, as, indeed, do some families who are already here. In most cases, a conversation with the staff or the principal, looking at the materials, is sufficient for them then to say, "I understand why that is important. That is OK". In some cases, however, they will say, "No, I don't want my child involved in that particular piece".

The choice therefore for schools is whether they try to override parents' views, which is not a great thing to do when we are trying to build a relationship with the family. The second issue will be, "There is a talk at 2.00 pm tomorrow that I do not want my child to be involved in. I don't want my child doing that". As a school, we can either say, "OK, we will make an arrangement for your child from 2.00 pm to 2.30 pm" or, "No, we cannot make an arrangement. Your child has to do it, because it is part of the curriculum", in which case the parent will keep the child at home for the whole day.

As we have described in the document, there are situations in which compromise is required. There may be a very formalised opt-out, where parents have to sign it off. Some of those topics flow, with abortion, for example, being one of the areas in which parents can sign off for their child to opt out. You heard the description earlier of the programme in St Ronan's College, which runs over a number of weeks. It is not a discrete piece that you can lift someone out of. There therefore needs to be flexibility, and in most cases in which parents have had an opt-out option — we will call it that, although I know that is not great language for it — the fact that they know that it is available to them means that they do not use it. Those who might use it this year realise, "Perhaps I overreacted", and they are happy to let their child participate in a future lesson or activity.

The issue with the current arrangement is that, when pupils opt out, they are opting out for the whole year, and, because it is very formal, it makes it much more difficult for parents to let their children back in again. A more fluid, informal arrangement with the school, whereby an understanding can be reached with the parent is more effective, albeit I am not sure how you would put that into legislation.

Ms Maguire: To put that in context, I do not believe that we are going to be bombarded with loads of requests to opt out. For a school of our size — we are talking about approximately 1,780 pupils — when we put out our consultation, we had one person respond to it.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): That is really interesting. I was very clear at the start that it is great to have educators here, because we then hear about the reality on the ground.

I want to follow on from David's question, because we discussed opt-outs in a lot of detail in the previous evidence session. My view is very much that if a parent approaches the school to seek an opt-out, that should be the beginning of a conversation. It should not be about ticking a box and moving on.

With that in mind, I welcome the real focus on making sure that a conversation happens with parents. That is crucial, and in any schools that I know of locally that have delivered RSE successfully, the parents have been involved in the process, and I am absolutely on board with that. When opt-out requests are made, to ensure that there is balance, is an age-appropriate conversation had with the young people who are impacted on so that their views are also heard?

Ms Maguire: From our perspective — we have talked about encouraging it — young people are most definitely involved, because the opt-out request impacts on their right to education and to access that part of it. They would have been part of that conversation, in my instance, with the parent. Fintan said that the parent objected to an element of RSE this year, but the child was not going to have that topic delivered this year. The parent was objecting in principle to the topic. Down the line, however, that parent will perhaps come back on board, having seen that the school is open. As Fintan said, the more that we encourage that dialogue with parents and children, the more that we will be able to move people forward through building relationships.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): I apologise for jumping in on the back of David's question. I will not labour the point. That answer has been really helpful.

Mr Baker: I will be brief. Thank you very much for your evidence. I talk to many young people, and they really want comprehensive RSE throughout their life learning. How do you guarantee consistency throughout the schools' estate? I hear from many young people that one school does better than another. Both are Catholic maintained schools. How do you balance that? Is it down to the principal or down to the teachers and the relationship that they have with students? What support can be given?

Mr Murphy: From the CSTS point of view, we have tried to engage the schools. As you will know from the paper that I sent you, we produced guidance on how they write policy. We then produced a teaching resource for them. Most recently, we produced training modules in order for the schools to have internal conversations about what they are going to do and why. For example, there is a training module on how to deal with sensitive subjects. At a school level, there will be differences in skills, confidence and priorities, as there will be in everything else. We will continue to do training with governors. We are planning a programme of governor training in the spring when the new governors are all in post. We will raise the issue again and say, "You, as governors, are responsible for this. You need to have conversations and to be clear where that is in your school's development plan. What is the current policy? What is the current curriculum?".

As with all topics, however, schools are in difference places. You mentioned young people having different experiences. Here is one thing that we discovered. Before we started all that work, the trustees engaged St Mary's University in Twickenham to research RSE delivery in schools. The researchers worked through surveys, and they met students, teachers and parents. When the researchers first went into schools, the young people said, "We don't do RSE", so they immediately went to the senior leadership team and said, "The kids are telling us that you don't do RSE here". The team said, "Ask them whether they do work on consent", and the answer was, "Yes, we do work on consent". They said, "Ask them whether they do work on relationships", and the answer was, "Yes, we do work on relationships". Lots of things were therefore being done, but, in the past, perhaps they were not described in the language of RSE. I have no doubt that there are some topics that some schools are not yet fully confident about delivering. I would like to think that it is a developing process and that schools are moving forward.

St Ronan's College is a good example of a school that has an RSE curriculum clearly laid out. Again, if you watch our videos, you will hear from lots of other schools that are part of that programme and are similarly able to describe clear, well laid out programmes. We have been working on this since 2017. Then COVID came along, followed by industrial action. There are therefore lots of reasons that schools have not moved forward in the past few years, not only on RSE but on so many issues. Individual schools have identified development plans for the next couple of years. For some schools, their plan will include RSE, while some schools have other priorities at the moment. One of the things, however, that the post-COVID experience has taught schools is that pupil well-being is key. RSE is fundamental to pupil well-being. Schools will see that RSE is an important area that they need to develop. There is certainly a lot more work going on in schools than there was some years ago, and, hopefully, that work will continue to develop.

Mr Baker: Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Robbie has asked to come in, so I will bring him in for the last contribution. I ask him to be mindful of time, as we are very much up against it, with another evidence session to follow.

Mr Butler: Thanks, Chair. I will be brief. My question follows on from Danny's, which I thought was really good. From the perspective of ensuring that pupils who choose to go to a Catholic school get the same experience as, and are protected in an equal manner to, others, what processes do you have in place to ensure that and to measure how young people have access, at the very least, to a linear and universal compendium of information, regardless of whether the issue is one of the more controversial topics? I come at it from the perspective of wanting to listen to the young people and wanting those who want the information to be able to get it, without the ethos, which should be threaded through, overruling the rights of every child.

Mr Murphy: I suppose, in some ways, the question that you are asking is this: who checks? It is not us. We provide the schools with materials in which we have confidence and in which, hopefully, they have confidence when delivering them and that they are confident are consistent with the ethos of the school. When we train governors and other school leaders, we take opportunities to tell them that it is an important part of the development of the whole person for whom they have responsibility, but, ultimately, it comes down to having conversations at a school level about learning what the school's current priority is and to governors ensuring that they have a clear understanding of that. We have schools that use monitoring and evaluation to clarify whether what they are doing is consistent with the needs of the students.

Do you want to say a little bit about your student evaluation processes, Maria?

Ms Maguire: We are informed by the pupil voice, right through pupils' time at the school, to direct the idea of what types of programmes to do, and also reflections. Sometimes, even in the reflections, the discussion can be on the type of delivery mode that is used. We have been talking to pupils about using more online facilities. It is about getting the skills base for staff to enable them to be in a position to do that or about using organisations. We had a recent visit from the ETI on its new inspection process. The whole area of pupil well-being and safeguarding is one of the core areas of the new inspection regime. That will be checked as part of the process for every school. That check is going to be there for us, in the context of what we are delivering and of our needs, as one of the nine core areas for inspection.

Mr Butler: Thank you. I have a final question. There is, however, no opt-out option for a school. I understand that we are getting into the ethos of individual schools, but I take it that there is a confidence that all schools will be delivering an element of the minimum content, in line with the material.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Briefly, please. Even a yes or a no is fine.

Mr Murphy: What we have provided schools with goes way beyond minimum content. We have a comprehensive programme for schools. It is up to the schools to determine what they deliver, when they deliver it, how they deliver it and how much time they can devote to it in the school day. That is the factor that is creating the difference between one school and another at the moment. It applies to every other area of the curriculum as well, however.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Thank you. We have covered a lot of ground. We had aimed for shorter briefings, but there was a lot of good stuff in there. I thank you all for your time. It was all very helpful.