Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): You are all very welcome today, and thank you for coming to give evidence to the Committee for our inquiry. We are joined by Déarbhla Sloan, senior policy and public affairs officer with the NSPCC; Karen Walker, the NSPCC's school service manager; and Caroline Cunningham, the NSPCC's policy and public affairs manager.

The purpose of the oral briefing is to bring your perspective on and experience of the provision of relationships and sexuality education (RSE), and your views on any of the terms of reference that the Committee has set out for our inquiry. I invite you to make a presentation of up to 10 minutes. I say every week that that is not a target, so if you come in under 10 minutes, that is always helpful. We have your briefing paper, but please feel free to set out anything in the next few minutes that you want to put on the Committee's radar. We will then move to questions and answers, where I will allow each member five minutes for their enquiries. I ask everyone to work with me on those timescales so that we get straight to the answers from the NSPCC. I ask that each question is dealt with by one witness, which will help us to get through the agenda and make sure that every member's enquiries are answered as thoroughly as possible. I will hand over to you to make your presentation.

Ms Caroline Cunningham (NSPCC): Thank you for the invitation to come here today to brief the Committee. I am the policy and public affairs manager for the NSPCC in Northern Ireland. I am going to give a short overview of the NSPCC's policy lines and positions on RSE. My colleague Karen Walker, who is the school service manager for Northern Ireland, is going to talk about our school service offer and our local campaigns work. Déarbhla Sloan, who is the senior policy and public affairs officer, Karen and I will then do our best to answer questions.

The NSPCC's overarching objective is to ensure that children and young people are protected from abuse and violence through early intervention and prevention and that all forms of abuse that children face are comprehensively tackled. The NSPCC supports compulsory, high-quality and inclusive relationships and sexuality education. We welcomed the introduction of the regulations last year and the contribution that, we hope, the new requirements will make towards the delivery of RSE at Key Stages 3 and 4. The NSPCC believes that learning about healthy relationships is a core entitlement that all children should receive. Educative programmes present an opportunity to make sure that all young people know that they have a right to be treated, and a responsibility to treat others, with dignity and respect. We support inclusive RSE that is age and developmentally appropriate for all children in primary and post-primary schools.

International research shows that RSE programmes can improve children's understanding of what constitutes a healthy or an unhealthy relationship. They can help them to recognise abuse or inappropriate behaviour and learn about their right to be kept safe and healthy. The research also shows that inclusive and comprehensive RSE can increase the likelihood of children coming forward to disclose their experience of abuse. Disclosure of abuse, especially at the time of the abuse, is rarely a straightforward process of a child simply saying that they have been abused, and there are several different ways that a child might try to let someone know what is happening to them.

In 2013, the NSPCC published a research report entitled, 'No one noticed, no one heard'. It described the childhood experiences of abuse of young men and young women who disclosed that abuse and sought help. On average, it took 7·8 years for young people who took part in the research to disclose sexual abuse. The younger the child was when the sexual abuse started, the longer it took for them to disclose it. Disclosing abuse can be difficult for young people due to a range of barriers, including having no trusted person to talk to, feelings of isolation, fears, anxieties, manipulation by the perpetrator, experiencing no one listening and a lack of recognition of abuse by others. The NSPCC's research found that young people's ability to disclose was hindered by them not recognising that what was happening to them was abuse, or not having the vocabulary to describe what was happening to them.

If you look at the stats for Northern Ireland — we caution that the statistics do not represent the complete picture — PSNI recorded crime figures for 2022-23 show that, on average, over six sexual crimes were committed against a child in Northern Ireland every day; 55% of all reported sexual offences were against children under 18; and recorded sexual offences committed against under-18s more than doubled between 2012 and 2023.

At the NSPCC, we have been campaigning for years for high-quality RSE, and we know that engaging with young people and understanding how they learn about these topics is a key part of that. In 2022, we carried out a UK survey that included almost 300 14- to 17-year-olds in Northern Ireland. In the survey, 61% of young people in Northern Ireland strongly agreed or agreed that they would like a say in what they learn about relationships, sex and sexuality, and 63% said that they want a say in how they learn about it. Survey respondents from Northern Ireland were more likely than their counterparts in the rest of the UK to say that school never or rarely covers what they want to know about RSE.

Whilst there has long been a statutory curriculum for RSE in Northern Ireland, apart from the minimum requirements, schools have been able to choose the elements of the RSE curriculum that they want to teach. The evidence shows that non-statutory provision has resulted in a wide variation in the quality and quantity of RSE provision. The Education and Training Inspectorate's (ETI) 2023 thematic evaluation, 'The Preventative Curriculum in Schools and Education Other Than At School (EOTAS) Centres', is clear that the flexible and non-statutory approach to the preventative curriculum has resulted in a situation where:

The NSPCC is clear that teachers and schools must be fully supported to deliver RSE and that engagement with parents and carers on the RSE curriculum is vital for developing a whole-school approach for building good communication, transparency, confidence and trust in the teaching of RSE.

That concludes the policy element of our statement. I now pass to Karen, who will give an overview of the school service offer and local campaign work in the area of RSE.

Ms Karen Walker (NSPCC): Thank you Caroline. The NSPCC's safeguarding programme for children aged four to 11 is called Speak out Stay safe. Some of you might have heard of it. We have been delivering that programme in primary schools in Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK since 2011. It helps children to understand abuse in all its forms and how to recognise the signs of abuse. It teaches that abuse is never a child's fault and that they have the right to be safe, and it provides information on where to get help and the sources of help that are available to them, including our wonderful Childline service. That programme is delivered, at no cost to schools, to pupils in their school setting mostly by their teachers through recorded assemblies, lesson plans, activities and display material that we create and provide at NSPCC. To help embed the learning, we have additional workshops for children aged six to seven and nine to 11, which are provided by our fully trained volunteers. I am delighted to share with you that the programme is very well received and respected in Northern Ireland. We have delivered Speak out Stay safe in 94% of primary schools here: as you know, there are a lot of schools.

We are working hard, post-COVID, to make sure that every child hears our messages at least once when they are younger and again when they are older. We have two programmes: one for the junior pupils and one for the senior pupils in primary education. Speak out Stay safe is also available in an adapted version for children in special schools, and, most recently, we rolled out a pilot for EOTAS.

A significant evaluation took place a few years ago, which confirmed that our programme is making a big difference to children. That was confirmed by Richard Ewart from Strandtown Primary School who said:

Mitchell House School said:

Our Talk PANTS programme is for schools that want to do more in-depth work with pupils and parents on sexual abuse. You have probably heard of it. We deliver the programme, which is for children aged three to 11 and is aimed at helping young children to stay safe from sexual abuse. Our free Talk PANTS resources are available on the NSPCC website to help children learn the Talk PANTS message, ensuring that they grow up understanding that their bodies belongs to them. That is a key message. It also teaches them how to speak out and who to speak to, if they ever need support. We have freely available lesson plans, slide presentations, classroom activities and guidance to help schools and nurseries to deliver Talk PANTS in their settings. We have a range of bespoke materials for children with special education needs and materials in Makaton, which is wonderful, as well as resources for parents.

Those are our two key primary programmes: Speak out Stay safe and Talk PANTS.

We have another programme called Talk Relationships. You may not have heard of it, but it is a new programme for older children. The NSPCC's Talk Relationships programme is our newest universal programme for post-primary age children aged 11 to 16. As I say, it is relatively new, and we are just starting to plan how we will roll it out across Northern Ireland. It supports schools to take a whole-school approach to building capacity among school leaders and teachers to more confidently — that is a key word — deliver healthy relationships education. We provide everything that schools need in order to help them bring in a whole-school approach to their RSE provision. That includes the evidence base, an implementation guide, step-by-step advice and a framework for a whole-school approach. We have lots of practical tools that teachers can use as well, including benchmarks, examples, self-assessment tools and editable action plans so that they can think about what to do next to improve their RSE provision.

With Talk Relationships, there are also two e-learning courses for teachers, comprising 12 modules for schoolteachers and school leaders to help them build their confidence in delivering RSE and responding to abusive behaviours. Schools in Northern Ireland were involved in the filming of those resources, which is wonderful, and we piloted some elements of Talk Relationships across 12 post-primary schools in Northern Ireland in 2022. To support teachers' learning, we provide summary documents of the key messages, which are based on evidence in various subject areas that are sometimes difficult and sensitive: online relationships, hurtful behaviour, sexual harassment, consent, sharing nudes and unhealthy relationships. That helps teachers to build their confidence in what they are delivering. Those resources have been created by experts, and they are based on evidence, which is really important. In each lesson, there is signposting for children and young people to get further help.

I am not forgetting parents. They are a key component of the whole-school approach. We support teachers in relation to common questions that parents might ask and how to respond. I am sure that we all agree that bringing parents along on the journey is really important.

That draws our opening statement to a close. I think that it was around 10 minutes. I will pass back to the Chair for any questions that members have for us. Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): That is brilliant. Thank you very much for that. My first question focuses at the primary end. So far, we have had a lot of discussion that has probably been much more focused on post-primary education and young people and their engagement with those issues. It has been really helpful to have a clear focus on what RSE might look like and what the needs of children might be at that end of the education system.

You have been very clear about how important it is that younger children at the primary and, indeed, the preschool end are getting good education on healthy relationships, safe adults, bodily autonomy and all of that stuff. I should point out that I had the opportunity to attend a Talk PANTS event earlier in the year, and I got to meet Pantasaurus, which has been one of the highlights of my career so far. I think that I was the only elected rep there, so I was in every photo with Pantasaurus, which I had not quite banked on when I went to the event. Given your focus on healthy relationships at the primary end and considering the minimum content for personal development and mutual understanding (PDMU) that is set for primary schools, how effective is that minimum content at ensuring that those key areas are covered for primary-school children? Clearly, your programmes try to ensure that that stuff is covered, but how effective is the minimum content?

Ms Cunningham: In my opening statement, I said that we look at what children and young people have said. That finding is from our research, which was a survey of 14- to 17-year-olds. That is reflected in other research and backed up by other young people. Children have said that they do not believe that they receive the RSE that they need in many circumstances.

Our interest in RSE is as a tool for safeguarding. It is not for the NSPCC to stipulate what should be in the curriculum, but there needs to be enough in it to keep children safe from harm. You only have to look at the statistics for disclosure of abuse. We need to keep coming back to the question of whether we are doing enough to keep children and young people safe.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): The statistics that you outlined would give anyone pause for thought. They highlight how critical it is that safeguarding is at the heart of this.

It is encouraging to see that 94% of schools in Northern Ireland have engaged with the Speak out Stay safe programme, but that also means that 6% have not engaged with it. Do you have an understanding of why that is?

Ms Walker: Yes. There are only 10 mainstream schools in which we have never delivered, and we are doing everything that we can to get into those schools. There are around 50 special educational needs schools, and we are working hard to get into all of them. We only recently launched our special educational needs programme — probably in the past two years — so we are just starting to roll it out. If I come back to you in two years, I imagine that that will have improved by then. We also have some independent Christian schools on our lists. I am not sure whether any Committee members are aware of those schools, but we have limited engagement with them. At the minute, our focus is on the special educational needs schools, EOTAS and the 10 schools that we have never been in. Those are our key priorities.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): That figure of 94% is certainly very encouraging. Does the NSPCC have any recommendations for what more the Department could do to ensure that every child leaving primary school has a good grounding in the education that they need to keep them safe?

Ms Cunningham: It is fair to say that we have engaged with the Department a number of times over the past year, and, obviously, we have a longer-term relationship with the Department of Education. We have tried to work with more than just the curriculum team, which is where RSE sits. This is not about just the curriculum team; it is about safeguarding pupil well-being. The Department has recognised that, and it has been helpful for us to see that across the two directorates. We have been asked to attend another meeting. We need to respond to that request and get a date for that meeting.

Getting back to government responsibilities, we are clear about this being led by the Department of Education, but it is now in the ending violence against women and girls strategy, which is an Executive strategy, so it is up to the Executive as a whole. Healthy relationships is included in that TEO strategy, and it is also in the domestic and sexual abuse strategy, which is jointly led by Justice and Health with Education and Communities also in there. Of course, we are going to advocate that the prevention of abuse needs to be a priority, with the Department of Education leading on that. From a public health perspective, however, there is a responsibility for us all.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): I have one final question. You mentioned that good parental engagement is key for your programmes to work. To what extent do you consider that to be essential, especially at primary-school level, to ensuring that parents are equipped to continue those conversations at home, that this is not a taboo subject in any household and that children feel that they can bring those conversations back into the family environment? Is there a need for resources to be provided to schools to help them with parental engagement?

Ms Walker: We could definitely do more on that. We do a lot of work with schools to prep school leadership and teachers. We have our website, we provide content for parents, and we have a parents' letter that goes out. On the NSPCC website, there is a big section to support parents to be consistent with our messages. One of the barriers is getting that to the parents. That is an issue, but it is not just an issue for us; it is right across education. More can be done, and we are always thinking about how we can better support parents through Speak out Stay safe and provide more information to bolster them.

One great thing about Speak out Stay safe is that kids go home with our key messages. They go home with a Buddy kit. Some of you have probably seen Buddy, which is our character. Buddy is a speech bubble. It is all about speaking out. Children go home from school with our key messages, their wee finger flexor and the safe adults that they thought about in school in their minds. That is what we hope will prompt conversations to extend those messages in the home.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): That is great. I hope that there will be a focus in the Committee report on what the Department and the EA can do to better support schools to engage parents positively with RSE. There is a lot of negative discussion around the parental aspect of that. It is actually about that positive engagement that enhances what the child is learning in the classroom. That is all from me. Deputy Chair, are you looking to come in?

Mr Sheehan: Yes, I have a couple of short questions.

First of all, how extensive has your engagement been with the Department of Education or the Minister?

Ms Cunningham: We have met the Department a number of times over the past year. I am not sure how many times. The Department has just contacted us, and it is on us to get back and arrange a further meeting. We have not met the Education Minister formally, but we had not sought a formal meeting until recently. We spoke to him in another setting, and he has agreed to meet us. It is now up to us to take that forward. It is continuing to evolve. We see ourselves as experts in safeguarding, so it is about what we can do to assist the Department in the work with schools and individual teachers, who are the experts at working with children.

Mr Sheehan: OK. Thanks for that. You also said in your opening presentation, Caroline, that there is wide variation in the quality and quantity of RSE that is being taught in schools. Does that depend on the type and ethos of the schools, in your opinion?

Ms Cunningham: I do not have the research to hand. I think that that is from the ETI report. I suppose that all schools, regardless of their faith or ethos, as far as we know, will keep children and their safety at the centre of things. For us, faith, ethos or whatever we want to call it should not be the issue. It is about looking generally at ourselves and our responsibilities in safeguarding children. We will have to come back to you on the ETI report, because that is where that statement was lifted from, but, for us, it is about safeguarding children every time. Regardless of ethos and faith, we all have that responsibility to safeguard children.

Ms Walker: When we started to deliver Speak out Stay safe 12 or 13 years ago, we talked to older children about sexual abuse. That was a barrier to some schools because we have a slide on it and we teach children the signs of it. It is a small part of the programme, but it is a significant part of teaching children about abuse. We worked really hard with all the schools to overcome the barriers to talking to children about sexual abuse. Those barriers no longer exist. We have done that work. It is just about working in partnership with schools to hear their concerns and work with them to overcome the barriers.

Mr Sheehan: Why did the schools have that difficulty? Surely child sexual abuse is an important societal issue. One would think that schools would welcome the opportunity for experts in safeguarding like yourselves to come in and talk to children about that.

Ms Cunningham: Often, we hear a lot about the confidence of schools and teachers and support for teachers and schools. The NSPCC has put together a lot of that resource. As Karen said, it is to the absolute credit of the work of our schools team that we are now in 94% of primary schools, and we are now at the start of that journey with post-primary schools. As we say to the Department and others, we are there to help to support, because safeguarding is at the centre of what we do. To date, we have worked with younger children in the lower Key Stages. We are now on that journey with post-primary children. It is about what we can do to help to support with that, to give our safeguarding expertise to the Department, and to insist that this becomes a reality and that things change. The risks to children and the types of abuse are ever-changing. That is why we need to keep current on that and keep on evolving.

Mr Sheehan: Finally, on the 6% of schools that you have not yet been able to access, is there resistance from those schools to you coming in to deliver your programme?

Ms Walker: It is the 10 schools, really, that are in the mainstream. We are still approaching the other schools, but there are 10 that we have been trying to work with for a long time. Bear in mind that, around four years ago, there were maybe 80 schools. Through our work with those schools, we have got the number down to just 10. One of our issues is getting through to the school and speaking to the safeguarding lead or the principal. That has been the barrier for us. We have not been able to hear from them on what their concerns are. We can only make assumptions.

Mr Sheehan: Fair enough. Thank you.

Mrs Guy: Thank you very much for your time today. I really appreciate the briefing. It was excellent.

You struck on one of the key points: children need to be able to form and maintain healthy relationships and then spot when there are unhealthy relationships, veering into abusive relationships. You also commented on the ETI report and the fact that children are reporting that they are, perhaps, not getting the information that they feel that they should get or want. Based on that, how do you feel about the parental or carer opt-out in the context of RSE?

Ms Cunningham: We have been clear in our statement and in the paper that the NSPCC, as an organisation, does not support an opt-out. For us, it is about everyone getting the same safeguarding messages on RSE. It is about inclusivity and equity. Where do you draw the line? As we know from the research, which we commented on in our opening statement, there are concerns on some of those more sensitive subjects: ETI has been mentioned, and we talked about that report quite a bit. Where do you draw the line? For us, no opt-out removes ambiguity on what can be covered.

Mrs Guy: Following on from that slightly, regarding the contribution of children and young people to creating resources for RSE, what role do you think they ought to play, having fed in that they do not think that they are necessarily getting the information that they ought to be getting? What role should they play in making sure that the materials that are used meet their needs?

Ms Walker: The whole-school approach framework that we will soon start promoting to schools in Northern Ireland is a key component of it: the school engages with children, young people and parents to develop its RSE provision. That is really important.

Mr Baker: Pat asked my question. I was going to ask about the schools that have not been accessed and the reasons for the challenges.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): That is fine. Peter, over to you.

Mr Martin: That is great. Thank you, Chair. I will not start by saying this every time, but I want to thank the NSPCC for the work that it does to safeguard children. I want to be very open about that. You are probably waiting for a "but", but there is not one coming. The work that you do to keep children safe in Northern Ireland is so important. I know lots about Talk PANTS. I have three kids, ranging from eight to 13, and they are all more than aware of some of the things that you have talked about today because of the work that you have done in schools. That is really core.

I have two small questions. Your written evidence is really good. I am going to read out a sentence to you:

I put a comma after that and wrote:

Maybe that is my addendum to it. Perhaps that is a mission statement for the Committee.

The Committee would agree, more or less, with everything that you have said. If it were up to me, I would say that safeguarding is the priority issue in Northern Ireland, and you can add to that things like consent, issues around women and girls, misogyny, the sharing of images and all that stuff. Where you will find disparity among Committee members is where you push further than that. The issue of a mandatory curriculum is where we may run into more difficulties. We want to sign up to all of this, because this is so core and so key; it is about keeping our children safe. Regarding the areas that the NSPCC would like to prioritise in the RSE inquiry, what are the key ones that you think should be in a new mandatory curriculum? If you had to pick three or five key areas, what would they be?

Ms Cunningham: I keep repeating this but our core message is to not get distracted by individual things. The whole issue is about safeguarding children. For us, the message is that RSE is critical for safeguarding children and young people. Would it be helpful to state some of the areas that we cover?

Ms Walker: Talk Relationships starts at the age of 10. It is a post-primary programme, but there is a module that can be done for younger children. It starts with young people expressing feelings about starting secondary school. Bear in mind that our programmes are focused on healthy relationships. Talk Relationships is about relationships: how to express feelings, how to manage transition, and finding reliable information, which is so important. That is probably when you start to think about the components and what is critical. It is critical for children and young people to get the right information — factual, evidence-based information — and not just to be doing Google searches because nobody has told them or taught them. Then, before you know it, they are not going down the right road.

The programme then develops. As they get older, it builds into changing friendships, communicating safely and positively online. Then you are getting into hurtful behaviour. When a child reaches the age of 10, it is then all about personal relationships, developing strategies for recognising unwanted, risky, harmful behaviour. Then you are getting into looking at stereotyping, image sharing, harmful sexual behaviours, online relationships and the meaning of consent. That is at the age of 14. As you go into the ages of 15 and 16, it changes again and advances again in age into relationships, rights, values, expectations, boundaries, the impact of unhealthy relationships and abuse, and the impact of online pornography.

What is really important in the whole Talk Relationships programme is for the school to create a whole-school approach around it. We are not asking them to take this from the beginning and run it right through to the end. We are asking them to work in consultation with their school, their school culture and ethos, and to create a programme that works for them.

Mr Martin: That is amazing, and thank you so much for that, Karen. There is a paragraph on page 7 of your evidence on self-generated images and sexual messages that is interesting and highly disturbing at the same time. What are the challenges around that for the NSPCC at the moment?

Ms Cunningham: Addressing the challenges of online safety is a strategic and core priority for the NSPCC at the moment. We campaigned for many years to get the Online Safety Act, which was passed just over a year ago. For us now, it is about working with Ofcom and challenging Ofcom around implementation and making sure that the big tech companies are held to account in their duty to safeguard children.

The thing about the online world is that it is ever-changing and there are always new risks. I do not want to be completely pessimistic about it, because there are so many benefits to the online world. We have to be careful as an organisation. The online world is a part of children and young people's daily lives. It is about society ensuring that we work with that, support that and keep on responding to those risks and evolve. As I say, there is a big role for Ofcom and the tech companies. It is something that we continue to work on. It is the support that we can give to parents and carers and the information that we can give by having regular conversations with their children, keeping doors open and maintaining good communication so that, if and when something does happen down the line, your child will speak out. That is what RSE is about: children knowing what abuse is and feeling that they can speak out.

Mr Martin: I nearly felt like saying "Amen" at the end of that, it was so good.

Ms Hunter: Ladies, thank you so much. It is remarkable what the NSPCC does regarding keeping children safe. Ultimately, knowledge is power for young people. One of you mentioned that they did not have the vocabulary to do with abuse to be able to share, which is heartbreaking. I have three questions. I will ask them all at once and then give you the chance to respond.

We have seen how horrific emerging and evolving tech and AI have been. They have been used and weaponised against women, so I have, sadly, no doubt that that technology will likely do the same with children. What conversations are you having on that? You referred to Ofcom and tech companies.

Over the past few years, particularly in the North, there has been an increase in homeschooling. Do you have any concerns that children who are homeschooled are less likely to be around other adults and other children and are maybe less likely to have the crucial information that they would get if they were in school? Is that something that you have come across?

Lastly, on the wider issue of paedophilia, does the Department of Justice liaise with you on childhood sexual abuse? Have there been any conversations around tougher legislation or harsher sentences? Any information that you can provide would be really helpful.

Ms Cunningham: I will start with the online one, Karen can discuss homeschooling, and then we can come back on the Justice issue. If we forget anything —.

Ms Hunter: No worries. You are grand.

Ms Cunningham: Like I said, the scale of abuse that children — it is often young women — continue to face online is unacceptable. For us, it is about holding tech companies to account. Many of them have rolled out apps and features without children's safety in mind, meaning that children continue to face the risk of abuse and exploitation. Dangerous and inappropriate material is continuous. There are algorithms. It is everything that we talked about today on Radio Ulster. We are very clear that those risks are preventable. It is about tech companies stepping up and putting children's safeguarding within the design of their platforms. Most social media platforms are designed for children aged 13 and over, but tech companies have continuously failed to put in appropriate safeguarding mechanisms to stop children from accessing them. Adult perpetrators are continuing to use the online world. Tech companies have not done enough to prevent that. We continuously call for robust implementation of the Online Safety Act. A lot of that is on Ofcom. Our colleagues centrally in London are working with Ofcom to continue to challenge that. We do what we can to provide support. It is ongoing. It is not going to go away. As an organisation, we will continue to push. We are very happy to talk about that in further depth at another stage, because it is a key priority for us.

Can you cover homeschooling?

Ms Walker: Yes. The homeschooling issue is really interesting, and we think about it a lot. Through Speak out Stay safe, we aim to reach every child, irrespective of where they are educated, including children who are educated at home. Given the fact that we have been in nearly every mainstream school, we are now working our way through special educational needs schools and EOTAS settings. I have said that. We are now really thinking about children who are educated at home. In the NSPCC, we have the Reach programme, which is about reaching all those sectors that have not yet engaged, including elective home education. It is a big priority for us. We want to better engage with those parents who are educating their children at home so that they can deliver the messages and deliver them consistently, like they are being delivered to children in mainstream school. We are thinking about it. It is a really important question.

Ms Cunningham: Would you mind repeating the third part of your question?

Ms Hunter: We see, time and time again, brave people come forward and tell their stories of childhood sexual abuse, and then we often see the perpetrators get really lenient sentences. Have you done any campaigning or advocacy around that? Has the Department of Justice reached out to and engaged with you on the issue of harsher sentences or improved legislation?

Ms Cunningham: We are looking internally at sentencing in light of the Online Safety Act. We do not have all the answers yet, but we know that we have to look at that. The Online Safety Act raised a lot of things that need to be given consideration. We have a good working relationship with the Department of Justice. You are probably familiar with the young witness service, which is run by the NSPCC and majority funded by the Department of Justice. It is the advocacy service for children who have to give evidence in criminal court. We see, day in, day out, the impact of abuse. We have just seen the domestic and sexual abuse strategy launched and published. NSPCC hosted that launch on its premises. For us, that was a good indicator that children are being recognised as a significant victim in Northern Ireland. We already spoke about the stats and the fact that 55% of sexual offences involve children and young people. It is about the implementation of the strategy, the action that is taken and how we can continue to push for greater work. There is also supporting children and young people afterwards on the criminal side of things. Bringing it back to RSE, "Prevention" is in the name of our organisation. That is always our drive.

Ms Hunter: Education is a powerful preventative measure, and 94% is really impressive. Thank you all very much.

Mr Brooks: Thank you very much for your presentation. I echo colleagues in saying that the initiatives that the NSPCC runs are excellent, and I have heard nothing but positive feedback from people I talk to about its role in schools. Something I mentioned to the Chair after the meeting last week was that the issue of RSE quite often results in a lot of us who have varying concerns about different things talking past each other because there are, as you referred to, some divisive subjects. However, I believe that, for 80% or 90% of what we are talking about, most people agree. That is reflected in how people think about your programmes.

You referred to 40% of children who say that school never covers RSE and 27% who say that school rarely covers RSE appropriately for them. We heard evidence last week from the Catholic Schools' Trustee Service, and it felt that, sometimes, the way that questions are asked of pupils can shape their response. They felt that, quite often, when you ask specifically, "Have you learned about this or that in school?", the response is higher than if you ask just about RSE in general. Do you share that view, or would it be reflected that, if you talked to them about specific issues, as you no doubt do, they would recognise that teachers and so on have perhaps had some of those conversations?

Ms Cunningham: We are not able to comment on individual methodologies used in pieces of research. All we can do is talk about what we are aware of and our own survey that we have mentioned. The results of our survey were similar to findings in other pieces of research. For example, the Belfast Youth Forum and Relate NI have done pieces of work. Across the board, we would not have all the information in front of us. We also have a very robust evaluation of Talk Relationships around what children and young people have said that we could share.

Ms Walker: Yes. In 2022, we did an evaluation of the Talk Relationships pilot, and we did surveys with children and young people. There is a lot of data and detail there that you might be interested in, so certainly we can share that.

Mr Brooks: That would be useful. That would be great. I am sure that all members would be grateful for that.

Ms Walker: It will probably help to answer that question, because it will give you more in-depth information.

Mr Brooks: We talked about the opt-out, and you made your position clear on that. In your experience, have you had parents opting pupils out of your programmes? We talked about the flexibility of an opt-out last week as well. Have they opted out of your specific element, or is it a general opt-out, which means that they are withdrawing from all RSE-type lessons? Therefore, it might be that they have a concern about another element of the programme but are withdrawing from other elements that are less likely to bring that about.

Ms Cunningham: We cannot comment on individual cases.

Mr Brooks: Just in general, are you aware of any?

Ms Walker: I can answer from a Speak out Stay safe perspective, because that is the programme that we have the most experience in delivering. Education is really fundamental, and it is important that every child hears these messages. We do a lot of work with the school in the lead-up to give parents information on what is going to be delivered. A letter goes out to parents before Speak out Stay safe that tells them what will be delivered, when it will be delivered, how it will be delivered and who is delivering it — all of that. They can be referred to the NSPCC website for more information. In that letter, there is an opportunity for the parents to come in and talk to teachers if they have any questions. We then provide support for those teachers. It is very rare that children are opted out of Speak out Stay safe. Obviously there are cases where our content could be triggering for a young person, maybe someone who has recently gone into care, or for a whole lot of other reasons. We work with the school on a case-by-case basis to think about how we can better support that young person to stay part of the programme. Ultimately, it is up to the child to raise any issues and whether they want to be part of it, but it is very rare for a child to opt out of our programme or for parents to opt their children out.

Mr Brooks: That is what I thought, so it is interesting to have that answer. I share Pat's concern that a school may be concerned or uncomfortable about the learning around child abuse. It is important to interrogate the reasons for that, so that, if they are worried about elements or triggers, we can understand exactly what it is. I would like to think that no school would object to trying to safeguard children against child abuse. It is about understanding if there are certain elements, and you gave an example of a trigger and why someone might not want a particular child or class to hear some of what you might share. Thank you for your answers. It is important that we drill down to make sure we get the nuance of why people object and exactly what they are objecting to.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): There is definitely a theme. If people are opting out, there needs to be an interrogation of why and supporting schools to not just say, "Well, that matter is closed. You have opted out". There is a need to support schools. At the stage of developing policies and resources, ensuring full engagement with parents is critical.

Mrs Mason: Thank you for your presentation. I want to follow up on something that Pat raised earlier. As an organisation with safeguarding at its core — you have made that very clear, and it is widely known — is the difficulty of contacting safeguarding officers in the 10 schools that you mentioned a concern? You said that you just cannot get into them.

Ms Cunningham: We are talking about a very small number of schools.

Ms Walker: There are a lot of teaching principals in schools, and schools are very busy places. It could be that our information is just not getting to the right person. You may not know this, but it is hard to find an email address for the principal of a school, so we are going through the info@ or school@ email addresses. We have 15 years of experience of working with schools, and we have a lot of contact details for schools, but it could be that our information is not getting to those 10 schools. The secretary may have the information, but it is not getting through. We phone and leave messages. I do not want to talk about specific examples.

We may have had a meeting with those schools to talk about the programme, the schools may have said, "We will come back to you with dates to book it in", and we may be at the stage where we are not getting the date. We are probably at different stages with the 10 schools, but it is 10 mainstream schools where we have not delivered our programme. We are focusing on those 10 schools, but it is a massive celebration for us that the number is down to 10. Very soon, it will be in single digits, which is good. For every school my team gets on board, the team will have worked very hard thinking about how to approach the school, including working with the Child Protection Support Service (CPSS). CPSS will send out our messages and content. We work with lots of different stakeholder organisations, and we also use newsletters and the press. It is not just about phoning the school and sending an email. We do a lot of other things, but every school that we get on board is a celebration. It would be great if the Department sent a message to all the schools, just to tell them to do our programme — that would be wonderful. We are celebrating getting down to the last few schools.

Mrs Mason: That was actually what I wanted to ask you. What, if any, intervention should the Department make if you are just not getting in — if it is not that information is not being passed, but just that schools are refusing to do it?

Ms Cunningham: We do not want to detract from the overall message that we have been in 94% of schools.

Mrs Mason: Which is a fantastic number.

Ms Cunningham: The NSPCC is one provider. There are a lot of RSE providers, but we can only talk from our perspective. We are here to promote the NSPCC — we believe that we have a wonderful programme — and to celebrate the fact that we are in 94% of schools. We continue to work with the Department, and we hope to meet it again soon. It is evolving.

Ms Walker: It is not just about Speak out Stay safe. I manage that programme and I will talk very passionately about it. However, it is about everything that Caroline talked about earlier. Talk Relationships, PANTS — it is about it all, and about reaching schools with all our programmes and messages.

Ms Cunningham: For us, it is Talk PANTS, Speak out Stay safe, which is for primary schools, and Talk Relationships, but we also provide that wrap-around with Childline. That is a universal service, which we should mention, for all children and young people, and we also have our helpline. We have direct services too. We do like to think that we have that wrap-around support, and we work very hard to reach communities.

Mrs Mason: Do you think that the Department should be able to intervene?

Ms Cunningham: I suppose that it is up to the Department to say what it wants. We cannot speak for the Department.

Ms Walker: All we can do is promote what we do to it. It has been great and very accepting. We have had maybe three meetings this year.

Mrs Mason: Do you have any engagement with the Education Authority and the youth work sector and the ability to go into Education Authority youth clubs and things like that?

Ms Walker: At the minute, we do not deliver our programmes through youth clubs, but that is a really good question. At the minute, we focus on reaching every child through their school.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Thank you all. I do not see any other indications. It has been a really helpful session, so we thank you for your briefing and your time today. There is a lot there that we will feed in, and I think that that really strong safeguarding focus has been really helpful and positive today. Thank you for your time, and I put formally on record from the Committee that we all interact with schools that have used your programmes. I think that we should pay tribute to the work that you do.

Ms Cunningham: Thank you.