Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Good afternoon. Thank you, First Minister. We are grateful for your attendance today. I want to read it into the record that the Committee invited all four Ministers. It is the Committee's understanding that the deputy First Minister has agreed that the First Minister attend today's meeting to take questions from the Committee. Please note that, as stated in the legal advice, the role of the junior Ministers is to act under the direction of the First Minister and deputy First Minister. Junior Ministers' attendance is at the discretion of the First Minister and deputy First Minister.

Please note that the Committee provided the First Minister with some questions in advance of today's meeting to aid deliberations in the private office but Committee members are not restricted to those questions. I remind you that questions should remain within the confines of matters pertaining to the Executive Office, but the First Minister may decide to answer questions as she sees fit. I remind members that my role as Chair is to keep order. I would appreciate members' cooperation to ensure that all members have equal opportunity to ask questions of the First Minister. To that end, each member will be given five minutes to ask questions.

Are we content to proceed?

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): First Minister, would you like to make some opening remarks?

Mrs O'Neill (The First Minister): Thank you very much, Chair. Like yourselves, I have had advice on my attendance this afternoon and the remit within which we may have some discussions. As you know, I have been before the Assembly Chamber; I have taken oral questions at Question Time; I have been before the Committee; I have answered many media queries; and I have spoken extensively on the issues about which you wish to speak today. I have been open, I have been transparent, and, absolutely, I am here today representing the Executive Office in my capacity as First Minister.

Chair, I welcome the fact that you have clarified your legal advice on the remit of the Committee. You have your legal advice and your considerations to make on all that. However, I think that it is fair to say that, at my previous appearance on 2 October, the lines between ministerial and party responsibilities were blurred. I am genuinely trying to be as open, transparent and helpful to members as I can, but doing so gives rise to wider concerns that, I know, the Committee has been given legal advice about. I am more than happy to answer as First Minister on any genuine issues, but we all need to be conscious of the clear legal advice that we have. I appreciate that, as you said, the Clerk shared some questions from some members with my officials, but, Chair, I have significant concern that they do not meet the tests set by your legal advice or mine. Where members are constructive, I am here to be helpful and answer questions on the work of my Department. I will be more than happy to answer those questions.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Thank you, First Minister. You mentioned that lines were blurred a bit. I want to put this on the public record: the Committee is responsible for scrutinising the work of the Executive Office. That work includes support for victims and survivors of the Troubles and ending the control of paramilitarism through your Department's Communities in Transition programme and other agendas such as Together: Building a United Community (T:BUC). Given the recent media commentary about whether the so-called IRA army council still has strong influence over Sinn Féin, what reassurances can you give the Committee that that is not the case in determining the priorities and actions of the Executive Office?

Mrs O'Neill: First, Chair, I will speak to your own guidance in terms of the legal advice. You have asked me to come back to clarify the previous Committee appearance, and I am here to do so. Party political issues are not for the Committee.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): It is not a party political issue.

Mrs O'Neill: I think that you just made a party political statement.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): I did not.

Mrs O'Neill: Do you want to repeat it?

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): I am just saying that I feel that, for the public record, it is a question that people may want you to be asked about whether the work that comes out of the Executive Office is purely in line with what is needed by the people and by the Executive as a committee themselves. I am giving you an opportunity to address recent media comment that that is possibly not the case.

Mrs O'Neill: I am not here to speculate on media comment, Chair. What I can say is that the Executive Office takes its responsibility very seriously.

Ms Ní Chuilín: Ridiculous.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): I think that it is a legitimate question.

Ms Ní Chuilín: I do not: I think that it is completely ridiculous.

Mrs O'Neill: What I can say is that the Executive Office discharges all its responsibilities very seriously, particularly when it comes to tackling criminality. No paramilitary groups should exist in this day and age. I think that that is a shared endeavour that we should all ensure. Any engagement with any groups that are active in today's society should be only on the basis of asking those groups to disband.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): I was giving you the opportunity to put that on the record.

First Minister, another area of work for the Executive Office that the Committee is particularly interested in is on the three new commissioners for the bodies provided for under the Identity and Language (NI) Act 2022 and on the wider piece about ensuring equality for the protection of minority language rights. Given the actions of one of your then members in Belfast City Hall on Saturday evening, what actions will you take to address the damage to the reputation of the Irish language community in terms of promoting the language on a cross-community basis and depoliticising it?

Mrs O'Neill: I am absolutely committed to promoting the language. That is important. There are so many children now being educated through the medium of Irish, and they should see it everywhere. We should all work to ensure that our society is an inclusive one, including for those who are Gaeilgeoirí

I will not comment on anything that potentially happened on Saturday night in City Hall.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): OK, thank you. That is all from me.

Ms Egan: Thank you, First Minister, for coming to Committee today. Obviously, the Executive Office has a wide range of responsibilities, including ending violence against women and girls, historical institutional abuse and mother-and-baby institutions. A lot of the work, as we know, involves dealing with victims and survivors of all sorts of tragedies in our past. Are you confident that your office is able to carry on that work? Have recent scandals involving your party affected your ability to do that and the confidence of stakeholders in engaging with you?

Mrs O'Neill: No, I am very confident. I assure you that I am very confident that I can continue to lead in this office and that I can continue to do the great work that we have been able to bring forward, even in these early days of the new Executive. I am very proud of our work around ending violence against women and girls. I am very proud of the fact that we have been able to launch our strategy for victims and survivors. I am very proud of the work that we have been able to advance around assisting people who have come through historical institutional abuse. We need to continue in that vein and make sure — we do this in conjunction with you, as a Committee — that that work is as fit for purpose and responsive as it can be for everybody out there.

Ms Egan: My next question is about your role. As First Minister, you lead and chair the Executive. One of the Executive Ministers, the Minister for the Economy, made comments on the disclosure of information regarding child safeguarding. Those comments were later refuted. What work will you and the Executive do to ensure that all organisations and individuals with positions of responsibility are clear on their safeguarding duties?

Mrs O'Neill: I have been very clear that I will not comment on anything that is party political, but I absolutely agree with you about safeguarding. We all have a role to play: as individuals, as political parties, as an Executive, as a Civil Service and as a society. Certainly, I believe that we all need to keep asking ourselves, "Is everything that we have in place fit for purpose?". That is a remit that we all share.

Mr Kingston: First Minister, as others have said, your Department has responsibility for overseeing safeguarding matters. We are concerned about the erosion of public confidence, given recent events.

Regarding Michael McMonagle, I wish to ask again about the event that was held here, at Parliament Buildings, in February 2023. Is it still your position that you did not notice him in attendance at that event?

Mrs O'Neill: Chair, I am here to answer questions as First Minister on behalf of TEO. That is a party political question. I have answered that question over and over in other forums.

Mr Kingston: There were other members of your party at that event: your special adviser, John Loughran, and junior Minister Reilly. Have you asked them, in their capacity as staff working under your authority, whether they had noticed Mr McMonagle in attendance?

Mrs O'Neill: Chair, I assume that you will rule on the vires of the Committee.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): We have agreed that Committee members can ask questions, but they need to frame them in a way that relates to the work of the First Minister.

Mr Kingston: You were styling yourself as the "First Minister-in-waiting" at that stage. It is an important matter, because the fundamental failing of you and your party was not just providing inaccurate references that enabled Mr McMonagle to obtain employment with the British Heart Foundation but your failure to let the foundation know, when you became aware that he was working for that charity —

Ms Ní Chuilín: Chair, on a point of order —

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): OK.

Mr Kingston: — of the charges that he faced.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Sorry, there is a point of order. Go ahead.

Ms Ní Chuilín: There is a transcript of the First Minister's previous appearance, when you asked the same questions. They were answered then in good faith, and now you are going back —

Mr Kingston: I am asking further probing questions.

Ms Ní Chuilín: — in a context that does not relate to TEO and is overtly political. I want to put that on record. I put it on record at the start of the meeting —

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): I know, I know.

Ms Ní Chuilín: — and here we go.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Are there questions in relation to —

Ms Ní Chuilín: All they have to do is throw "safeguarding" in, and that is it sorted.

Mr Kingston: They are matters of public confidence in the oversight of safeguarding.

Mrs O'Neill: Chair, may I make a general point?

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Yes. Go ahead, please.

Mrs O'Neill: I take my roles and responsibilities very seriously. I have endeavoured to answer all questions. I have answered numerous questions on the Assembly Floor. I have answered questions in the media. Indeed, I have previously answered questions at the Committee that strayed into party political matters. My legal advice is clear that that is not where any of us should be.

I am here on behalf of the Executive Office. I answer questions today on behalf of the Executive Office. You should not endure some members taking a party political approach.

Mr Kingston: Let me try further. Since your last appearance three weeks ago, First Minister, you have changed your position on a number of matters relating to these issues, because you have accepted that there was misinformation. Do you accept that your lack of clarity and lack of candour have damaged public confidence in the oversight of safeguarding of children?

Mrs O'Neill: As a mother and a grandmother, I take safeguarding very seriously. It needs to be taken to the nth degree, and we need to ensure that everybody in society plays their part. I have answered these questions in the Committee; I have answered these questions on the Assembly Floor; and I have answered these questions in the media. I do not believe that this is anything other than party politicking from the member.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): You mentioned a lack of candour: is there anything in particular that you want to ask? You have the right, as any member would, to raise concerns around the ministerial code.

Mr Kingston: Will you answer questions regarding Niall Ó Donnghaile and what you were aware of in relation to him?

Ms Ní Chuilín: That has nothing to do with TEO; absolutely not.

Mr Kingston: It is a matter of safeguarding and the actions of you and your party.

Ms Sheerin: Chair, we received legal advice on the vires of the Committee and on what we were allowed to ask questions about.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): OK. One at a time.

The Clerk Assistant: Chair, the Committee was very clear at the beginning of the meeting that it needs to stick within its remit. The substantive point of the question has to be within the remit of the Committee, rather than there being a passing reference to the Executive Office. Members have to be clear about that in order to get the best information that they can from the First Minister today. I would advise that.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): OK. Thank you.

Mr Kingston: May I ask you when you became concerned about the reference that was given to Niall Ó Donnghaile by your party leader, saying that he had served diligently?

Mrs O'Neill: Chair, with all due respect, you have taken legal advice.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): We have taken legal advice.

Mrs O'Neill: May I ask you whether you are confident that you are following your legal advice?

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): We are of the opinion that Committee members have a right to ask questions and that —

Mrs O'Neill: To me as First Minister of the Executive Office, because I represent the whole office.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): I reminded members in private session, and I remind them in public session. The questions were put.

Anyway, five minutes are up. Who is next? Harry, please go ahead.

Mr Harvey: Thank you very much, Chair. First Minister, I would like you to hear my question out before you decide whether you can answer. I think that it is a reasonable question. Is that OK?

Mrs O'Neill: Sure.

Mr Harvey: On the Belfast City Hall event on Saturday evening past organised by Glór na Móna and the damage to a former Lord Mayor's portrait, were any other members of your party in the vicinity of that attack on property, and are you aware of anyone having tried to stop it?

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Harry, before we go on, the question has to relate to the work of the Executive Office. You are aware of that. Can you couch your question in relation to that?

Mr Kingston: Chair, if I can intervene, I will just point out that junior Minister Reilly was present at that event and gave a statement in the Assembly Chamber on Monday morning about her attendance at it.

Ms Ní Chuilín: Not as a junior Minister. Not as TEO.

Mr Gaston: She was there as TEO.

Ms Sheerin: She is a Gaeilgeoir

Ms Ní Chuilín: She is a Gaeilgeoir, Timothy.

Mr Kingston: She was there in her capacity as a junior Minister.

Ms Egan: May I raise a point?

Mrs O'Neill: Chair, this is the point that I raised with you: this is straying into party politicking as opposed to being genuinely about safeguarding. Other members have raised genuine safeguarding questions. I wanted to be here to be open and transparent. Some of this stuff is just straying completely beyond your legal advice, I am quite sure.

Ms Egan: May I raise a point, please, Chair?

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Go ahead, please, Deputy Chair.

Ms Egan: In fairness to you, First Minister, I understand that we did not share the legal advice with you. I have it in front of me. I am happy for either Clerk to correct me if I am wrong, but the legal advice said that witnesses could not be compelled to answer if they felt that a question was not within the vires of the Committee, not that the Chair had to rule it out. Is that correct?

The Clerk Assistant: That is correct.

Ms Egan: So, the onus would be on the witness not to answer.

The Clerk Assistant: I think that that is —

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): It is also on the Committee members to ask questions that are in line with our responsibilities as Committee members.

Mr Gaston: Let members ask them then.

Ms Ní Chuilín: We also discussed the fact that questions need to be related to TEO. You cannot say on one day that that applies but, on another day, say that it does not. It either applies or it does not.

Mr Gaston: This is a confidence issue.

Ms Sheerin: The legal advice was that there was risk in people asking questions.

Mr Gaston: Aye, so it is on the member.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): We are eating into Harry's time. Harry, have you any questions for the First Minister that relate to the work of the Executive Office?

Mr Harvey: Basically, was there anyone trying to stop the incident? That was my question

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Do you want to make any comment?

Mrs O'Neill: No, Chair. That is not within the remit of the Committee.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Have you any other questions?

Mr Harvey: No. Thank you, First Minister. Thank you, Chair.

Ms McLaughlin: Thank you, First Minister, for coming along today. I regret that you are here on your own; I would have liked the deputy First Minister to be with you, because it is a joint office. It is very unfortunate that she is speaking to the public through X, telling us what, she thinks, should happen here today in her joint office. You are joint First Ministers of the Northern Ireland Executive, and she has said that it is:

Your partner — your joint First Minister — has a completely different view of your role in responding to the Committee. That concerns me: does it concern you?

Mrs O'Neill: All I can say, Sinéad, is that the deputy First Minister and I agreed that I would be here today. She had a prior constituency engagement that she needed to take up, which is fine. I agree with you that it is a joint office. As I said to the Chair, it is very important that we protect the integrity of the joint office and that we should all be here today. However, in the interest of trying to be helpful to the Committee, given the request that was received, I have come along and tried to answer questions, as per my Executive Office remit.

I absolutely concur that this is a joint office, but the reason that I am here is the "jointery". We agreed that I would come here today; we agreed that I would seek to talk to the Chair — that letter went to the Chair last night; and we agreed that I would be here to answer those questions.

Ms McLaughlin: Michelle — First Minister — I beg your pardon — she said, three hours ago, again on X:

Again, I have not got clarity that both you and the deputy First Minister have a clear understanding of what we, as a Committee, are expecting.

First Minister, I was not here when you made your appearance three weeks ago. The reason that you are back here is that there was not clarity and openness and people felt that due governance had not taken place at that appearance. They felt that they had not had an opportunity to engage properly with some of the grey areas. In fact, the very next day, it became apparent that things that you had said at Committee did not happen just as you had said they did: for example, you had spoken directly to Fearghal McKinney etc. Subsequently, other issues have evolved —

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Do you have a question?

Ms McLaughlin: I am trying to get it into the context of the office, because this is really tight.

Other issues regarding safeguarding and children's safeguarding are really important to the Committee. They are really important, and that is the work that you do in your office. It is about mother-and-baby units; historical childhood abuse; victims and survivors; trauma-led response; paramilitaries; coercion; and violence against women and girls. It is all connected to the work that we do here, yet, fundamentally, at the top of the organisation that you lead — you are the leader — there have been serious questions in relation to child safety and safeguarding. It is fair that we, as a Committee, ask you for further clarity.

You have come back here because you have had to revise, you have had to apologise and you have had to clarify issues, even as recently as yesterday on the Floor. There are legitimate questions that we want to ask you about the Michael McMonagle case and the Niall Ó Donnghaile case, based on the role that you play in the Assembly and on the Executive. It is about child safety. Do you not agree that those are fair questions for your credibility and for the credibility of all of us in the work that we do?

Mrs O'Neill: First, I wish you well. I know that you had pneumonia. I am glad to see you back.

Ms McLaughlin: Thank you.

Mrs O'Neill: Secondly, I am here with the agreement of the deputy First Minister. I am here to represent our collective office. I am here to take questions from the Committee because of the request that you sent me, but I am here to answer questions in relation to the work of my ministerial office. Party political questions are not for the Committee. However, I have very much blurred the lines in trying to answer some of those questions in a spirit of openness and transparency. I have tried to be crystal clear.

I, like you, want the safeguarding policies that we have across society here to be absolutely A1, A* and first class. We should never let any child down. That is my commitment. I am very determined to lead from the front, as I have always done. I will continue to do that in the Executive Office.

It is important to state that the powers of the scrutiny Committee relate to the scrutiny of Ministers insofar as they are exercising their ministerial functions. Ask me questions about that. That is what I have always come to Committee for. Questions about Sinn Féin business are not within the remit of the Committee. That is why I came back by myself; I was trying to provide that clarity for you and others.

Ms McLaughlin: Do you not feel that what has happened in Sinn Féin was of your own making? You are not responsible for Michael McMonagle's actions or Niall Ó Donnghaile's actions, but you are responsible for the processes thereafter. That is a crisis of Sinn Féin's making.

Ms Ní Chuilín: That is a party political question.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): OK. Time is up.

Ms Ní Chuilín: It is clearly a party political question.

Mrs O'Neill: Chair, I am not going to respond —

Mr Gaston: On a point of order. Who is chairing the meeting today?

Mrs O'Neill: — to that point, but I will respond to another point that she made.

Ms Ní Chuilín: I am making a point.

Mrs O'Neill: I set out to clarify the record. As soon as I became aware of that, I set out to clarify the record. I think that that should demonstrate that I do not stand over something if I am not able to. If I find that something that I said is incorrect, I will correct the record. I have done that on a number of occasions over the past number of weeks. I hope that that demonstrates that, whenever I find out that something that I have said is not 100%, I will clarify the position. I hope that you feel some comfort in the fact that I have tried to do that at every turn, including yesterday in the Assembly during Members' Statements.

Ms McLaughlin: Chair —

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): No. I need —

Ms McLaughlin: I want it on the record that I have lots of questions that I need to ask. I have lots of questions, as a member of the Committee, that I need to scrutinise the First Minister on, but I feel that I am not able to.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Can I get round the first round?

Ms McLaughlin: OK.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Then we will see if we have time.

Ms Sugden: Thank you, First Minister. I suppose that this whole situation has given rise to questions about safeguarding in the public sphere: in the Assembly, the Executive and arm's-length bodies. Safeguarding is very directly under the remit of the Executive Office. Can you give me any examples of what you have done since this conversation has arisen to address safeguarding more generally and ensure that we provide that A* service in our public bodies, including the Executive Office and the Assembly? For me, it has given rise to questions about safeguarding in some organisations in my constituency. How do we improve that so that we do not find ourselves in a situation where children and vulnerable adults become victims, essentially?

Mrs O'Neill: That is the conversation that we need to have. I have become acutely aware of it. Like you, I have been contacted by organisations that are concerned about safeguarding. All of this has brought to the fore a concern that people have had, so, clearly, there is work to be done. Not to be too technical about it, but safeguarding sits within the remit of the Department of Health, but we, as the Executive Office, also have a responsibility. A Committee's time is best served by asking, "What are the failings in safeguarding in society right now?". I certainly want us to get to the bottom of that.

Saying that the policy responsibility sits under Health is a statement of fact, but, as I said, we all have a role to play in it. I certainly think that there is a body of work to be done to ensure that our safeguarding policies are fit for today's modern world, which is very complex and in which everything is changing constantly. I certainly want us to focus our attention on that. This is all about dealing with the here and now, but I am not going to let it go. I am going to turn this experience into something that is fruitful and beneficial and improves safeguarding for children and vulnerable adults here.

Ms Sugden: Given that it is, I suppose, a cross-cutting issue in that respect and that, potentially, the Executive Office can lead on it, as we have seen with other areas, will you commit now to reviewing, particularly in the public sector and the public sphere, how we safeguard from a policy perspective, how we implement that, how we consistently review and train and how we ensure that we do not have vulnerable people —. It is about maybe not technically defining but understanding who our vulnerable people are, whether it is those under 18. I know that, in safeguarding law, to an extent, that is defined. It is about being very clear about that.

There are huge gaps here because people have overlooked their responsibilities, and that could be the case in other organisations. We need to be very clear about what our responsibilities are. I am not sure that the safeguarding policy that exists, which is led by the Executive — whether it is Health or of a more cross-cutting nature — is up to the standard that is required, because it has given rise to this whole issue.

Mrs O'Neill: I am fairly certain that it is not, and I will tell you why. It is because of the comment that you just made. Other organisations have been in touch to say that they are concerned, so, clearly, we have work to do as a local Assembly and an Executive. We need to find out what is wrong, and we need to fix it.

Ms Sugden: Will you lead a review of that?

Mrs O'Neill: I absolutely would be up for that, but, obviously, I have to take it back to the "jointery" of the office.

Ms Sugden: I concur with Sinéad: I am disappointed that the deputy First Minister is not here, because I would have liked to hear her views on what I have just said, and that opportunity has not been given to me.

Mrs O'Neill: I will ensure that what you have suggested is reflected back.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Is that you, Claire?

Ms Sugden: Yes.

Mr Gaston: I am drawing from the ministerial code. The ministerial code requires Ministers to:

— in relation to —

We know that Michael McMonagle was employed by you from March 2020 to May 2020. How many days a week did he work in your constituency office?

Mrs O'Neill: Chair, the vires of the Committee.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Timothy, you know that it has to be under the remit of the Executive Office.

Mr Gaston: This is out of the ministerial code that I am drawing directly from. You are the First Minister: does this code apply to you?

Mrs O'Neill: The ministerial code does apply to me, Chair.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Yes. Thank you.

Mr Gaston: Thank you very much. On that basis, how many days a week did he work in your office?

Mrs O'Neill: Chair, I am not answering questions that are not for this Committee.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): That is an employment contract.

Mr Gaston: Are we setting that aside in the ministerial code and saying that it does not apply to the First Minister? No?

How many days a week —?

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): It does not apply to the Executive Office and the functions and scrutiny.

Mr Gaston: It does, because this is what it all comes down to. This is about confidence in those leading the Government of Northern Ireland. This is the ministerial code that they have signed up to.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Issues —

Mr Gaston: There are questions regarding financial matters, which —

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): — which —.

Mr Gaston: — were signed up to as a Minister and which apply.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Let me speak. The financial matters relate to the business of the Assembly Commission. If you have a complaint in relation to the use of public funds for the employment of staff etc, you should refer that to the Assembly Commission and/or the standards commissioner. Am I correct?

The Clerk Assistant: Yes.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): That is correct. I have just received —.

Ms Sheerin: It does not relate to this Committee.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): It does not relate to this.

Mr Gaston: The seven principles of public life include integrity, accountability, openness, honesty and leadership. On that basis, I have asked you a question about what happens in your constituency office, and you are deciding to duck it. You are deciding not to answer it.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Timothy, it is not a question —.

Mr Gaston: You cannot separate the two.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): You can separate the two, because the due diligence in relation to the use of public funds for employment and office costs is done on the fourth floor of this Building, as you know, and it is overseen by independent auditors and accountants.

Mr Gaston: Time and time again, we have heard that Mr McMonagle was a press officer from Sinn Féin. We have the First Minister sitting in front of us here now. The First Minister employed that man from March 2020 to May 2020, and there is a serious question over how those moneys were spent or paid to him for his services. The First Minister is deciding that she does not want to provide any details. How many days a week did he work in your office? Did he do any work for you, or is it a case of Sinn Féin just using money from your budget for the political animal?

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Timothy, have you referred these matters to the Assembly Commission or the standards commissioner?

Mr Gaston: This is TEO, and I have the opportunity, when the First Minister is sitting in front of me, to ask —.

Ms Sheerin: Ask questions about TEO.

Mr Gaston: Who is chairing the meeting? Give Paula her place.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Through the Chair, please. Thank you.

Mr Gaston: Yes, thank you very much.

We will move on, if that is what you want. If you do not want to follow the ministerial code and if you do not want to uphold the seven principles of public life, that is a matter for you.

Ms Ní Chuilín: That is ridiculous.

Mr Gaston: You are talking about confidence —

Mrs O'Neill: I think, Chair, that you are just letting —.

Mr Gaston: — and you are not doing yourself any justice today —

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Sorry, you are badgering a witness.

Mr Gaston: — to give people —.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): We have gone through this before around the code of conduct of Committee members.

First Minister, respond, and then I will let you back in, Timothy. Go ahead.

Mrs O'Neill: All I will say, Chair, is that I take my Pledge of Office very seriously, I take the use of public funds very seriously, and I will stand over my role in all those things.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Thank you.

Mr Gaston: I will go back to the last meeting, and I have Hansard here to keep me right. When you appeared here before, you said, regarding Máiría Cahill, that "Of course" you believe her. This relates to ending violence against women and girls.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Thank you for relating it.

Mr Gaston: This is all about confidence and the credibility to be leading up on that. I will quote from Máiría's book:

It goes on to say:

You agree now that you believe Máiría. What was the IRA doing in a Sinn Féin office?

Mrs O'Neill: Chair, I am here to answer questions as the Executive Office, and that is completely out of order.

Mr Gaston: Do you not find that odd?

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Sorry, excuse me, Timothy.

The Clerk Assistant: I just want to re-emphasise the requirement for members to try to keep within the remit of the Committee as it relates to the Executive Office.

Mr Gaston: To give credibility to your document, do you want to take this opportunity to apologise to Máiría for all the times in the past when you —?

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): That is a political question.

Mr Gaston: No, it is not; this is about confidence in ending violence against —.

Ms Ní Chuilín: It is political.

Mr Gaston: No, it is not.

Mrs O'Neill: Chair, I will make a general comment about ending violence against women and girls, if that is helpful. We have launched our strategy. It has been co-designed with all our partners out there. It is an excellent piece of work. I think that it will make a real difference.

We all have to tackle the scourge of misogyny that exists out there in our society. We have work to do as a society. We only have to look at the recent death of Mary Ward, which came hot on the heels of the deaths of so many other women who have been tragically murdered by men in our society. We need to focus our efforts on making sure that we change that picture. We have to do the preventative work, and we have to lead from the front on our strategy. I am determined to lead from the front on that issue.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): OK. Thank you.

Mr Gaston: So —.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Your five minutes are up, Timothy. Thank you. They are.

Ms Egan: Timothy, you started that a minute and a half after the Clerk started his.

Mr Gaston: Just like the other members, I want to put on record that I do not think that five minutes was enough time. You said in your opening remarks that you would not be interfering with questions: it is quite obvious that you were. We talked at the start of the Committee about how members would have five minutes to ask questions and should not be impeded, and that is exactly what you did.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): I also said at the start of the meeting that the questions had to relate to the office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister and the work of the Department that they lead.

Mr Gaston: I feel that all my questions did.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Excuse me, I am moving on.

Would either of you ladies like to ask some questions?

Ms Ní Chuilín: Yes, I have my hand up, Chair. Thank you.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Sorry, I did not know that. Carál, go ahead.

Ms Ní Chuilín: It is OK. You have been quite busy today.

First Minister, first of all, in my five minutes, I just want to say that I thought that this was going to happen. There are people who are genuinely concerned about safeguarding and genuinely concerned about the Department but are using this Committee as a political football. It is really obvious, and I just want to say that. On the ongoing issue of people having questions but not being able to get answers, I also want to say that they can put questions into TEO. If they relate to TEO, they will be answered. If they do not, they will not be. That is the way it goes.

I am not sure whether you or anyone else in the Department, in relation to Claire's question about safeguarding, is looking at this: there were concerns raised in this case — the McMonagle case — about AccessNI and other fora that are used being fit for purpose. It is not just about safeguarding but about best practice. Is that something that your Department could look at in conjunction with Health, because Health runs that? That is my first question.

The second thing is a point. We have raised it continually. We were meant to have Foras na Gaeilge and the Ulster-Scots Agency in. We got briefings from the two yesterday — two substantial bits — and we still have not received a briefing from the officials. That is happening time and time again. Could you take that back and have a look at it? When we get the briefings, they are fairly substantial. We are all on other Committees in the Assembly, and we are rushing through it. We cannot get to the bottom of some of the things that we need to do.

I will finish on this. I wish that we could get back to scrutinising the Department. I honestly feel that some of the commentary inside and outside the Committee is doing more of a disservice to the Committee than any allegations. I think that it is disgraceful; I have to say that. I think that it is quite disgraceful. That is me done.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Do you want to respond?

Mrs O'Neill: If the briefings are untimely, I will take that up with the Department again to ensure that they are timely.

On the issue of safeguarding, which I have discussed with Claire, I can endeavour to take that back to the Executive and raise it at our next meeting. I have been giving thought to how best to find a cross-party approach to safeguarding and ensuring that it is proper, A* and services the needs of children and vulnerable adults. I can definitely commit to the Committee that I will bring that back to the Executive Office. I commend the approach of bringing it to the Executive for discussion and working out the best structure: review what is in place, identify where it falls short and plan how to change it. We have a short part of the mandate left, but this is an area of work that we seriously need to focus on. If the past three or four weeks have taught me anything, it is that this is an area where there is room for improvement.

Ms Sheerin: Thank you for coming, Michelle. I do not have any questions about what we have been discussing throughout the meeting, other than to clearly disassociate myself from the party politicking, and I do not feel that it is helpful. I feel that it discredits the Committee and the work that we do.

It is important to say that, in a conversation and line of questioning about ending violence against women and girls — I know that you are personally invested in it, I am invested in it, and we all want to work together to deliver it — it is very unhelpful that, at the beginning of the meeting, we had a female Chair being told by another member to "Breathe". We know that the attitudes, the language, the othering, the criticism of women and treating them as if they are hysterical just because they are exercising their function are what lead to violence against women and girls. I feel that it is important to put that on the record.

Ms Ní Chuilín: I agree with you.

Mrs O'Neill: Thank you for that.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): First Minister, with your indulgence, I will let Sinéad back in, because she was not here for the first one.

Ms McLaughlin: It is just a small area. It is about ending violence against women and girls as well. Part of the consultation and review looked at the judicial aspect. It was about the detrimental effect of a request for a good character reference from people who are or appear to be upstanding members of society, particularly in cases of rape or other serious issues. Someone can give a good character reference that is about, for example, someone being great at their job. What do you think about that? Do you think that there is a place in society for good references, particularly in the judicial system? Do you agree that they can be harmful to the victim?

Mrs O'Neill: I do not agree that they are a good thing in society. They should not be allowed. They should not be tolerated.

Ms McLaughlin: OK.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Brian, you had indicated. What is your question, so that I can see whether to put it to the First Minister?

Mr Kingston: I want to make a comment. Examples of the questions and lines of questioning were provided in the letter to you, First Minister, so I do not think that you can be surprised that we wanted to ask questions relating to Michael McMonagle and Niall Ó Donnghaile. We also have to think of the reputation of the Committee in its scrutiny role, and it needs to be able to ask the questions. You and other members of your party — you as First Minister — have changed your position as the weeks have gone on. You have gone from saying that, essentially, Sinn Féin, apart from two other press officers, did nothing wrong to acknowledging —.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Brian, I think that the First Minister has addressed that.

Mr Kingston: No. It is relevant. Just let me finish.

You then acknowledged where poor practice had been exercised and mistakes made. It is important for the public to hear acknowledgement of where mistakes were made. Standards are ever increasing, and people want to know that there is acknowledgement that things should have been done differently and that mistakes were made but lessons have been learned, so that we can all speak to and promote best practice.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): The last line to you.

Mrs O'Neill: I will make a more general point, Chair. There is not a day goes by in life when we all do not learn a lesson, but it is important that we reflect. I have been open and transparent. I have set the record straight where anything was incorrect. I hope that that provides the clarity that is required.

I accepted the invitation to come today because I wanted to be helpful to the Committee, but our most fruitful conversation today has been that the issue of safeguarding needs to be looked at and reviewed. Let us work together on that area, because it is important that we have the right systems, practices and policies in place across society so that we do not fail children or vulnerable adults.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Thank you, First Minister.

Ms Ní Chuilín: May I just make a very small point?

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): OK, very small, please. I do not want to open it up again.

Ms Ní Chuilín: I find that your point within the context is your point, but I think it is mealy-mouthed, coming from a political party whose Ministers sit down with loyalist paramilitaries talking about deprivation and underprivilege.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Sorry —.

Ms Ní Chuilín: That is ridiculous. It is ridiculous.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): OK. Thank you. We have a lot of other important —.

Mr Kingston: Are you seriously making that comment?

Ms Ní Chuilín: I really am.

Mr Kingston: Well, I think it is an extraordinary point for you to make, Carál.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Sorry, excuse me. Thank you, First Minister. Thank you.